Thread: Bus to the border

Bus to the border

Bus to the border


Orange County Register reporters spent a year examining U.S. efforts to deport undocumented immigrants accused of crimes. We interviewed law enforcement officials on both sides of the border, deportees and experts in immigration and international law.
We found a system overwhelmed by the sheer number of immigrants and hampered by public agencies working at cross-purposes. Although there are some successes, there are also unintended consequences.

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Deportation splits ‘city with a heart'
Part Two coming Monday: Immigration checks by local police snare many dangerous criminals. But the majority of those caught were accused of traffic offenses or other non-violent crime. Some law enforcement officials who once supported such programs now question whether it is a good use of resources.

Recycling criminals
Part Three coming Tuesday: Dumped in Tijuana and other border cities, with little money and few connections, desperate deportees sometimes turn to crime. The immigrants help to fund – and sometimes, join up with – criminal enterprises that smuggle people across the border. Police on both sides of the border describe a more dangerous place


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DEPORTED: An U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officer, left, checks names off a list as deportees walk past paper bags containing their personal belongings to board a bus back to Mexico. The 45 deportees, gathered from southern California jails, departed from the ICE facilities in Santa Ana.





Bus to the border

A $2 billion effort to deport immigrants has little measurable effect on crime or illegal immigration. Some agencies often work at cross-purposes.
By NORBERTO SANTANA Jr. and TONY SAAVEDRA

LAKE FOREST - Juan Gutierrez Bahena peeped through a window at the Aliso Creek Apartments, watching a young boy shower. When the boy called for his mother, Gutierrez Bahena ran off.

Then he pulled his pants down and exposed himself to a woman and her 7-year-old daughter.

When sheriff's deputies arrived, Gutierrez Bahena wanted a fight. Instead he got 50,000 volts from a Taser.

But deputies got a jolt of their own when they checked his fingerprints:

Gutierrez Bahena is an undocumented immigrant from Mexico, with a California prison record for burglary and drugs. He has been deported to Mexico six times – most recently on May 26 – exactly one month before his arrest at Aliso Creek.

Undocumented immigrants accused of crime have become a major focus of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. Last winter, the Orange County Sheriff's Department and the City of Costa Mesa partnered with ICE to look for undocumented immigrants in local streets and jails. Since then, they have identified and turned over more than 3,000 people for deportation – making them a national leader in this program.

"We're identifying more foreign nationals that are here illegally, that are career criminals, than anybody else in the United States," Sheriff Mike Carona told an anti-illegal immigration group at a Coco's restaurant in June.

In the words of Gutierrez Bahena, interviewed in shackles and an orange jumpsuit at the Orange County Jail, "They just take us to the border and it's over."

Actually, an Orange County Register investigation has found, it isn't.

U.S. efforts to find and deport illegal immigrants are overwhelmed by sheer numbers and hampered by public agencies working at cross-purposes. The $2 billion spent each year has little measurable effect on either crime or immigration.

Most people deported say they intend to return to the U.S. – and many do. Criminals have less trouble returning than most.

Threats of federal prison for illegal returnees are mostly empty. Federal prosecutors have neither the time nor the budget to prosecute illegal immigrants. Although tens of thousands were caught re-entering last year, U.S. attorneys in the Los Angeles basin prosecuted just 317 people for criminal re-entry.

In addition to Gutierrez Bahena, caught in Orange County for the seventh time, there was Oscar Gabriel Gallegos, 33, deported twice before he shot two Long Beach police officers last year; Adrian Guadalupe Arriano, 29, deported twice before his September arrest for raping two women in their Santa Clarita Valley homes; and Roberto Armendariz-Lozana, 41, deported three times before his June arrest in East Texas on drug trafficking charges.

Lozana had been deported just three months earlier.

"Does that happen? Yeah, that's happened. We all know that happens," said James Hayes, director of the ICE Detention and Removal Office in Los Angeles.

Hayes said the government is extending border fences, installing electronic monitoring devices and adding Border Patrol agents. In the meantime, he sees value in busing criminals to the border.

"I'd rather get them immediately and get them out of the country," Hayes said. "I do this because I believe in this."

Stepping up enforcement

Although any number is an estimate, the U.S. Bureau of Labor, the Pew Hispanic Center and the Center for Immigration Studies generally agree there are about 12 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. The Pew Center – a nonpartisan group that studies Hispanic migration – puts the number at 2.7 million in California. The Center for Immigration Studies, an independent think tank that seeks to restrict immigration, estimates there are more than 1 million in L.A. County and 311,000 in Orange County.

In the wake of the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, Congress passed new laws that made it easier to deport immigrants with criminal records. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 expanded the list of crimes that could trigger deportation. It also authorized immigration status checks by local police, and authorized federal officers to send immigrants back through "voluntary removal" – a signed consent form that is not reviewed by a judge.

Those new laws weren't used much until a series of criticisms were leveled at the agency two years ago. In an April 2006 report, the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general said ICE was deporting less than two-thirds of the undocumented that it found.

Out of the 774,112 illegal immigrants apprehended since 2003, the inspector general estimated that more than a third were released because there weren't enough guards and jail cells to hold them while their cases went through the immigration courts.

In an effort to address these shortages, Congress boosted the funding for the ICE deportation programs, from $1.2 billion in fiscal 2005 to $2.1 billion in 2008. The agency's entire budget now hovers near the $5 billion mark.

The number of deportations to all countries rose in 2007, to just over 261,000. According to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, 132,802 of those were sent back to Mexico.

Based on Pew's numbers, that's less than 3 percent of the illegal immigrants in the U.S.

And it's no secret to law enforcement that many of the people sneaking into the U.S. were deported just weeks ago. A U.S. Border Patrol check of the 825,505 caught crossing in the year ended Sept. 30 found 133,620 people who already had U.S. records, either for crimes or previous deportations.

One of the key federal strategies for boosting interior enforcement numbers is partnering with local jurisdictions to cull illegal immigrants from their jails. At a press conference in Los Angeles in October, ICE officials touted a two-week operation netting the arrest of 1,300 criminal aliens and fugitives. More than half of those – 797 – were found in local jails.

Last December, after extensive lobbying by Costa Mesa Mayor Allan Mansoor, ICE stationed an immigration agent full time at the Costa Mesa jail. One month later, after several years of requests by Carona, ICE trained sheriff's deputies to conduct checks on inmates coming through the county jail.

"We're now actively involved in screening 100 percent of the people that are coming through," Carona said. Federal officials confirm his claim that Orange County is turning over more inmates for deportation than any jail in the country.

In the first six months of the program, Orange County identified more than 2,800 suspected illegal immigrants; Costa Mesa found 289. If that rate holds for the year, Orange County jails will have turned over more immigrants for deportation than ICE found in all its workplace raids in fiscal 2007.

Workplace raids often result in a backlash when businesses are closed and children wait in vain for a working mother to come home. Deportations from the jails incur no such backlash.

"Of all of the things that ICE does, the deportation of people convicted of crimes is the most popular," said Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, D-San Jose, who is chairwoman of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Citizenship, Immigration, Refugees, Border Security and International Law.

"There's very little support in the country for people who violate the law."

Speeding up removals

While few disagree that the U.S. should deport undocumented immigrants who have committed a crime, there is a growing debate over how that should be accomplished.

Under the 1996 law, officials can interview inmates with no lawyer or advocate present and offer them the option of waiving their right to a court hearing and agreeing to an immediate return to Mexico.

Called "voluntary return," the process shuttles immigrants who have signed such a document out of the country, often within hours. Voluntary returns have been used for years at the border but ICE has dramatically expanded the practice as a tool for interior enforcement.

During the year ended Sept. 30 – the first year voluntary returns from interior enforcement actions were released – there were 39,450 removed from the United States in this fashion. According to ICE statistics, more than a third of immigrants deported each year since 2001 have not received hearings.

ICE officials say the expedited proceedings are appropriate and legal under U.S. law – and supported by Congress.

"They waive their rights. It's a voluntary thing. Nobody is compelled to accept the voluntary return," ICE spokeswoman Virginia Kice said. "People request a hearing all the time."

But these speedy removals have raised concerns among human rights advocates.

Jorge Bustamante, a United Nations Special Rapporteur, or investigator, appointed to monitor the rights of migrants worldwide, said jailed immigrants interviewed by armed guards without a lawyer present are not agreeing to deportation of their own free will.

"There's nothing voluntary about this," Bustamante said. "This places the United States in a situation where they are violating human rights."

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, a treaty ratified by the United States in 1992, requires that non-citizen residents be allowed to have their case reviewed by a judge before they are expelled, except in pressing cases of national security.

"The (voluntary) procedures are very fast, very confusing," said Allison Parker, an attorney with New York's Human Rights Watch. "We want to see the reinstatement of fair hearings in the deportation process."

But the international objections mostly fall on deaf ears in Washington.

"UN officials' criticisms are often based on their support for open borders so I don't think they are valid," said Congressman Ed Royce, R-Fullerton. "The U.N. itself has become synonymous with corruption, mismanagement and a blatant disregard for human rights."

But earlier this year critics of the deportation policy found an incident they say highlights those same flaws in the deportation process: A Los Angeles native serving a jail term for a misdemeanor somehow signed "voluntary" deportation papers and was bused to Mexico.

The 29-year-old man, Pedro Guzman, is a high school dropout who has had several brushes with the law. In April he was finishing up a 120-day jail sentence for trespassing when deputies at the Los Angeles County Jail questioned him about his citizenship.

L.A. Sheriff's officials said Guzman signed a document attesting that he was born in Nayarit, Mexico, and had crossed illegally into the United States on Sept. 9, 1989.

On May 10, Pilar Garcia – an ICE agent working in Santa Ana – interviewed Guzman. Garcia said that she advised Guzman that he could either see an immigration judge or accept a voluntary departure. "Mr. Guzman waived his right to appear before an immigration judge and instead chose to return to what he claimed was his native country of Mexico," Garcia asserted in court documents.

Guzman was put on a bus and deported to Tijuana. His mother and brothers would spend months searching for him before he was found by the Border Patrol attempting to cross back into the U.S. at Calexico.

Mark Rosenbaum of the American Civil Liberties Union said Guzman is cognitively impaired, easily confused and susceptible to suggestion.

Rosenbaum argues that the U.S. is now putting speedy deportation ahead of legal rights.

"There has to be due process and fairness, regardless of whether you are a U.S. citizen," Rosenbaum said. "This case emphasizes the utter insufficiency of the procedures used in the jail."

But Kice, the ICE spokeswoman, said the agency did everything correctly and Guzman created his own nightmare by lying about being a Mexican national.

That, Kice said, is "highly unusual."

Federal prosecution: an empty threat

During the public forum at Coco's earlier this year, Sheriff Carona indicated some conflicting feelings about his agency's involvement. Carona was proud to be catching so many illegal immigrants. But he also suggested that a more effective national policy might be a better use of taxpayer funds.

On one point, Carona was clear. Asked what happens to criminals who illegally return to the U.S., Carona said they are turned over to the government for federal prosecution.

The Register found that seldom happens.

U.S. prosecutors charged just 15,551 immigrants with criminal re-entry in 2006, according to federal data compiled by the Syracuse University-based Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse.

That's up from 4,029 in 1996 but still a fraction of the 1.2 million people apprehended after crossing into the U.S. illegally in 2006.

Federal prosecutors interviewed by the Register say it would be impossible to prosecute every deportee who returns.

Paul K. Charlton, of Arizona, one of seven U.S. attorneys fired by the Bush administration in 2006, said his office led the country in prosecutions for criminal re-entry – a total of 20,182 over two decades. But he said that number was paltry compared to the number of people caught re-entering the country.

"It's very sexy to talk about more Border Patrol or ICE agents on the street," Charlton said. "There's a value to that in that the public can readily understand."

But Charlton said federal prosecutors lack the resources to make criminal prosecution an effective deterrent.

"You will never solve the problem of illegal immigration on the backs of the criminal justice system," he said.

In the Central District of California, which covers Los Angeles, Orange and five other counties, only 317 cases for criminal re-entry were filed in fiscal 2007. While that is an increase from 10 years ago, when only 89 cases were brought, it remains a small percentage.

Thom Mrozek, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles, did not dispute the numbers by the Syracuse-based clearinghouse. He said prosecutors only go after immigrants with multiple deportations and serious felony records.

"It's a resource issue," Mrozek said. "We focus on the worst of the worst. A simple illegal immigrant is probably not going to be prosecuted.

"Deported? Yes. But prosecuted? No."

Contact the writer: 714-796-2221 or nsantana@ocregister.com

We need to cut out the jobs. Make the fines meaningful enough for the employers to be a deterrent.

Cut off the freebies - give only emergency medical care and food. I can't make myself say not to treat a sick child. But when an illegals comes in, deport them when they are well.

Stop all wire transfers of money, unless the person is a legal immigrant - then I think we need a large fee, tax whatever you want to call it for sending money to anyone abroad except to an American citizen.

Tell Mexico unless they get very busy and help stem the tide of these people to America, we will cut off all foreign aid and then we will cut off all wire transfers to Mexico.

Then we need to give our BP the freedom to do their jobs and protect themselves, and this country. That includes shooting, if necessary. When there are no more jobs and no more freebies, anyone coming across illegally is quite possibly a criminal and we don't need to let them in.

If they persist in coming and committing crimes, let's bring back the road gang. It is said we couldn't afford to eat without their labor - let's see how well they can grow food on a prison farm.

Make Sheriff Joe the head of HOmeland Security - specifically the BP and ICE.

Like your style.....totally agree with you on ALL points....The LARGE fees for wiring money out could be put to the costs of collecting them and for everything else that costs us because of them....

Originally Posted by nntrixie

We need to cut out the jobs. Make the fines meaningful enough for the employers to be a deterrent.

Cut off the freebies - give only emergency medical care and food. I can't make myself say not to treat a sick child. But when an illegals comes in, deport them when they are well.

Stop all wire transfers of money, unless the person is a legal immigrant - then I think we need a large fee, tax whatever you want to call it for sending money to anyone abroad except to an American citizen.

Tell Mexico unless they get very busy and help stem the tide of these people to America, we will cut off all foreign aid and then we will cut off all wire transfers to Mexico.

Then we need to give our BP the freedom to do their jobs and protect themselves, and this country. That includes shooting, if necessary. When there are no more jobs and no more freebies, anyone coming across illegally is quite possibly a criminal and we don't need to let them in.

If they persist in coming and committing crimes, let's bring back the road gang. It is said we couldn't afford to eat without their labor - let's see how well they can grow food on a prison farm.

Make Sheriff Joe the head of HOmeland Security - specifically the BP and ICE.

Very impressive. If you're not running for office, I hope you will consider it. We need people that think like you do.

Moving to News from General Discussion.

nntrixie said:

Stop all wire transfers of money, unless the person is a legal immigrant - then I think we need a large fee, tax whatever you want to call it for sending money to anyone abroad except to an American citizen






Do you know that illegals are now, more and more, sending money orders home?

We noticed an huge influx of tenants coming in asking my husband to help them fill out money orders all of a sudden. One day, out of curiosity, he asked one guy what is with all of the m.o.s suddenly and he was told they are using those instead of depending so much on wire transfers.

According to him, the IAs feel that wire transfers are getting too expensive and they can't afford it.

Felons found in police immigration screening
Two OC police agencies have become national leaders in deporting illegal immigrants. Petty offenders are swept up in the net.


By TONY SAAVEDRA and NORBERTO SANTANA Jr.
The Orange County Register



IMMIGRATION CHECKS: Angel Garcia, a federal immigration enforcement officer, works full-time at the Costa Mesa city jail, checking the immigration status of each arrestee.

BRUCE CHAMBERS, THE REGISTER



Social tolerance was once the hallmark of Costa Mesa, a place where bowls of free soup awaited the poor just as racks of designer shoes awaited the well-heeled.

The home of South Coast Plaza was also home to a city Human Relations Committee, a job center and a decades-long history of helping the poor, whether immigrant or native-born. The late county Supervisor Tom Riley dubbed Costa Mesa "the city with a heart."

The soup kitchen is still there. But the Human Relations Committee and the job center are gone, jettisoned by Mayor Allan Mansoor and his allies on the council after being too sympathetic to illegal immigrants.

The city's new legacy is its aggressive stance against illegal immigration, including the use of city police to identify undocumented immigrants among crime suspects.

Costa Mesa is not the first local agency to partner with immigration agents. Police in Florida and Alabama have been doing so since 2003. In California, jail-check programs vary from checking the status of convicted felons – that's what Los Angeles County does – to checking everyone in the jail – that's what Orange County started doing just one month after Costa Mesa.

Costa Mesa's program has brought more controversy than others because city police check not only jail inmates, but minor offenders on the street – like jaywalkers and disorderly drinkers – who are not able to provide identification.

"Disorderly conduct itself isn't necessarily the most dangerous crime, but nevertheless, it is a crime," Mansoor said. "It's really cut and dried – we're trying to uphold the law."

The Register analyzed jail records, Superior Court records and crime data to determine exactly what happened during the first months of both programs:

•The sheriff's program snared 2,874 illegal immigrants between April and October, 60 percent of them (1,717) accused of felonies. Among those tagged: 45 people accused of homicide, 66 accused of robbery and 64 accused of child molestation. One 22-year-old reputed gang member was accused of participating in the killing of two 14-year-old boys.

•Costa Mesa flagged 289 illegal immigrants between December 2006 and June, 11 percent of the total arrests. Thirty-nine percent of those on ICE hold (112) were accused of felonies. Costa Mesa didn't find any accused of homicide in that period, but one man was arrested on suspicion of child molestation and four were arrested on suspicion of strong-arm robbery. Police arrested 177 on misdemeanor or infraction charges, including 44 picked up on suspicion of driving under the influence, 32 on suspicion of being drunk in public and 29 on suspicion of driving without a valid license. On Thursday, Costa Mesa released figures showing 520 deportable immigrants were picked up during the full year.

•Many of those caught in Orange County's net were small-time offenders: drug abusers, drunk drivers, probation violators, people no more criminal than the celebrities festooning supermarket tabloids. Three-fourths of those nabbed in Costa Mesa during the first six months had never before been charged with a crime in Orange County. Twenty were arrested on cases so marginal that they were rejected by the District Attorney's Office or not even presented in the first place.

•The Register was unable to identify any effect on crime in Costa Mesa, despite supporters' firmly held belief that the city is safer now.

That may not matter to many county residents.

"If they've committed a crime, there should be no recourse, appeal or anything. They should be gone," said Barbara Coe, chairwoman of the Huntington Beach-based California Coalition for Immigration Reform.

"I think we have enough homegrown criminals. We need not import more."

DEPUTIZING LOCAL POLICE

The law that allows federal immigration officials to deputize local police as immigration officers dates to 1996, shortly after the first World Trade Center bombing. Under the program, known as 287g, the federal government also reimburses local agencies for most of the costs of jailing illegal immigrants.

Florida and Alabama were the first to sign up, in 2003. Today, more than 26 agencies in 12 states are participating.

Last December, after extensive lobbying by Mayor Mansoor, ICE stationed an immigration agent full time at the Costa Mesa jail. In January, sheriff's deputies trained by ICE began conducting checks on inmates at the county jail, the product of years of lobbying by Sheriff Mike Carona.

"We're now actively involved in screening 100 percent of the people that are coming through," Carona said. Federal officials confirm his claim that Orange County is turning over more inmates for deportation than any jail in the country.

In initial interviews, deputies ask about prior convictions, gang affiliations and citizenship, and decide which inmates merit a second check for immigration status. From there, inmates are referred to a deputy who has completed a four-week ICE training session.

The deputy asks about parents' surnames, place of birth and citizenship. He checks federal immigration and criminal databases. Depending on the answers, he generates an "ICE hold" that is sent to the federal immigration agency. Those with holds are picked up by ICE at the end of their sentences.

Costa Mesa's program is slightly different: An ICE agent is stationed full time at the Costa Mesa jail.

Carona said his program is catching "career criminals."

Mansoor said his is nabbing "major offenders."

That's true – to a point.

Records indicate that Costa Mesa officers are mostly bringing in minor offenders, many of whom are simply unable to provide identification – such as Abimael Ludin Sanchez, caught sleeping in his car, and Marcelino Tzir, caught riding his bicycle on the wrong side of the street.

Both were turned over for deportation.

Costa Mesa Police Chief Christopher Shawkey defended the policing efforts, saying the city program treats all offenders equally, regardless if they are petty criminals or dangerous felons. To do otherwise would be biased, Shawkey said.

"I'm not making any claim it will reduce crime. It is what it is," he said. "Can they come back? Sure, they can get back here."

Some feel the program is inherently destructive and divisive, with no real value if deportees can return.

"It's fracturing the community," said Jean Forbath, a social activist who founded the Costa Mesa charity Share Our Selves. "The future of Costa Mesa and Orange County and all America is to accept each other. This program does not create communities."

But many voters sided with Mansoor during the 2006 election. He received 26 percent of the council vote, highest of any candidate, and his ally, Wendy Leece, got 24 percent.

"To me, there is no excuse for breaking the law," said Ernie Feeney, a grandmother who lives in north Costa Mesa. "If you break the law and an officer stops you, you've got to produce identification."

A question of tactics

Mansoor, an Orange County sheriff's deputy, was first elected to the Costa Mesa council in 2002. He soon collected the support of Jim Gilchrist, founder of the Minuteman Project, a civilian border watch group. In addition to the council seat, Mansoor's campaign to crack down on illegal immigrants propelled the Costa Mesa debate onto the national airwaves. Gilchrist made Mansoor an honorary Minuteman.

The Register's analysis of those roped in by the Orange County and Costa Mesa jail checks quickly became a litmus test for law enforcement experts on both sides of the issue.

Orange County sheriff's officials agreed they caught a lot of folks who weren't necessarily dangerous. One Costa Mesa police official confirmed that they probably weren't changing crime statistics. But both agencies say those are the realities of law enforcement.

"It isn't fair to categorize criminals," said Lt. Roland Chacon, who supervises the sheriff's jail-check program. "A petty thief may just be a petty thief to some. But if he's stealing my stereo or is a petty drug dealer, I don't want (him) in my neighborhood. Would you want him in your neighborhood?"

James Hayes, Los Angeles director of Detention and Removal for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, agreed, saying small offenses, such as driving without a license, can be the first step toward major crime.

"They're going to go from not being licensed to not having insurance, to getting into accidents, to not being able to find a job, because of all those factors combined, because they're dependent on drugs, they're dependent on alcohol, and they're going to be thieves, then they're going to be rapists, then they're going to be murderers. That's the progression," Hayes said.

"I'd rather get them immediately and get them out of the country."

On the other side are law enforcers who see snaring immigrants for low-level crimes as costly and counterproductive.

"If you're deporting and removing everybody from a shoplifter to a murderer, you're creating a situation where it's much more difficult for law enforcement to focus on the serious cases," said Doris Meisner, who ran the Immigration and Naturalization Service during the Clinton administration.

The police chiefs in Huntington Beach and Santa Ana, the cities on either side of Costa Mesa, say local police should only be questioning dangerous criminals about their immigration status.

Anything else could result in immigrants becoming afraid to call police when a crime occurs or afraid to testify when they see a crime.

"There's millions of undocumented people in California; I've met many of them," said Huntington Beach Police Chief Ken Small.

"Most of them are good, hard-working people."

A safer city?

Nearly all the people placed on ICE hold in Costa Mesa were arrested in the same Westside neighborhood. Police logs indicate that 362 major crimes were reported in that neighborhood during the first six months of the immigration program. The same number was reported during the same period the previous year.

Citywide crime had fallen by 11 percent the year before the immigration program began Dec. 5, 2006. The crime stats fell another 4.7 percent citywide during the first six months of the program.

Costa Mesa Capt. Ron Smith said the number of people flagged for deportation in his city was probably too small to statistically affect crime.

"It's a little drop in a bigger bucket," he said.

Former Costa Mesa Police Chief Dave Snowden said the city never had a big problem with immigrant criminals in the first place.

"The argument was there were all these hard-core felons," said Snowden, who now heads the Beverly Hills Police Department. "Where are the hard-core felons?"

Costa Mesa Councilwoman Katrina Foley, who voted against the immigration checks in her city, isn't sure that anti-immigration folks are necessarily focused on making the streets safer.

"At the end of the day, we should just be honest on it," Foley said. "If the crime is just being here, then the program is having an impact on crime. But I think many of our violent crimes are by citizens."

Even Carona, who sometimes brags about the success of his jail-check program, expresses some doubt that local agencies can make much of a difference on such a complex problem.

Questioned at a citizens forum in June, Carona surprised some of his supporters.

"In my opinion, it's an absolute waste of taxpayers' dollars the way we're going about it right now," he said. "I wouldn't talk about (catching) illegals; I'd talk about creating guest workers … and then I'm not getting into somebody else's life about why they're in this country."

Originally Posted by nntrixie

We need to cut out the jobs. Make the fines meaningful enough for the employers to be a deterrent.

Cut off the freebies - give only emergency medical care and food. I can't make myself say not to treat a sick child. But when an illegals comes in, deport them when they are well.

Stop all wire transfers of money, unless the person is a legal immigrant - then I think we need a large fee, tax whatever you want to call it for sending money to anyone abroad except to an American citizen.

Tell Mexico unless they get very busy and help stem the tide of these people to America, we will cut off all foreign aid and then we will cut off all wire transfers to Mexico.

Then we need to give our BP the freedom to do their jobs and protect themselves, and this country. That includes shooting, if necessary. When there are no more jobs and no more freebies, anyone coming across illegally is quite possibly a criminal and we don't need to let them in.

If they persist in coming and committing crimes, let's bring back the road gang. It is said we couldn't afford to eat without their labor - let's see how well they can grow food on a prison farm.

Make Sheriff Joe the head of HOmeland Security - specifically the BP and ICE.

Kudos, trixie! You hit the nail on the head.

Good charts and maps Greg. Where did you find those? Looks like the Orange County Register provided by Costa Mesa PD. No wonder we got out of there. NOTE THE SAFE ISLAND OF NEWPORT BEACH. They have some crime but it is very little. You can't even drive your car there with your stereo blasting. Once you leave that safe area you're in it.



"We're identifying more foreign nationals that are here illegally, that are career criminals, than anybody else in the United States," Sheriff Mike Carona told an anti-illegal immigration group at a Coco's restaurant in June.


MORE FOREIGN NATIONALS THAT ARE HERE ILLEGALLY, THAT ARE CARERR CRIMINALS, THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN THE UNITED STATES.