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  1. #1
    Senior Member AirborneSapper7's Avatar
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    GM Already Bankrupt - Bailout Won't Help

    ‘Already Bankrupt’ GM Won’t Be Rescued by U.S. Loan (Update5)

    By Doron Levin and John Helyar

    Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- For General Motors Corp., the question is no longer whether it will get a government loan or if Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner will be replaced. It’s whether anything can prevent the largest U.S. automaker from sliding into bankruptcy.

    Even an offer by the Treasury Department today to provide temporary relief, after the Senate rejected a bailout plan approved by the House, isn’t likely to offset the Dec. 10 announcement that GM’s 49 percent-owned affiliate, GMAC LLC, lacked the capital to become a bank holding company. That means the financing unit won’t be able to access Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program to help make auto loans.

    GMAC may now have to file for Chapter 11 protection, with or without a loan, joining GM’s biggest parts supplier, Delphi Corp., which is already in bankruptcy. The Detroit-based automaker, leaking $67 million a day -- enough to buy a fleet of 1,800 Cadillac CTS coupes -- may soon be sucked into the vortex.

    “GM already is bankrupt and should file for bankruptcy,â€
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  2. #2
    Senior Member miguelina's Avatar
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    The company eschewed the Chapter 11 option for months, believing it would make consumers unwilling to buy their cars.
    That's pretty lame, considering buying a new car is way down in the options for many Americans, in this economy.

    Declare bankruptcy, cut the fat from the top down, pull yourselves out of the whole you created. We, the taxpayers, are strapped.
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    "

  3. #3

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    Corporate, smorporate...mentality........These are American workers jobs at stake. Put aside the hate of unions, these are taxpaying citizens, and there are thousands more whose livelihoods are at stake since they are suppliers, or car dealers, etc who will also lose jobs.

    We bailed out the elite...the unscrupuled, greedy, unregulated financiers, the ones they let run unchecked when any tom, dick and harry could hav e told them, they were over their heads, yet regular Americans they will let them sink.......... Wonder where they think they are going to get the taxdollars to keep up their little funny money printing, when there aren't going to be any Americans left with jobs to pay taxes.

    Tea party time..........Boston Harbor here we come.

  4. #4
    Senior Member swatchick's Avatar
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    GM has made many poor executive decisions. They were already in trouble back in 2005. We shouldn't have to pay for their errors. I don't know how many of you have noticed this but Ford is the only one that has cut back on advertising. GM still has alot of commercials and so does Chrysler. Since GMAC owns Ditech are they in trouble too?
    Where is Lee Iaccoca when they need him? He can solve those problems.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Skip's Avatar
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    In the mid-1990s, then-General Motors Corp. Chairman John G. Smale decided to bring the world's biggest automaker a dose of the give-the-people-what-they-want ethic that had animated Smale's old company, Procter & Gamble Co. And what the people wanted was sexy, edgy and a bit off-key; in short, a head-turner. General Motors' culture took over from there. Design would be by committee, the focus groups extensive. And production would have to stick to a tight budget, with all that sex appeal packed onto an existing minivan platform. The result rolled off the assembly line in 2000: the Pontiac Aztek, considered by many to be one of the ugliest cars produced in decades and a flop from Day One.




  6. #6
    Senior Member Skip's Avatar
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    Video: Chevy Tahoe's online ad contest

    Chevrolet's contest to get consumers to create ad content for its Tahoe SUV has attracted a lot of satire ads. The rules say any attempt to "undermine the legitimate operation of the contest may be a violation of criminal and civil laws." Here are some Tahoe clips from the contest you won't see on TV.

    http://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-6056633.html

  7. #7
    Senior Member Skip's Avatar
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    General Motors Complaint

    Worst Lemon That I've Ever Wasted My Money On - Cavalier
    Posted By: ferninphilly on 11/13/2008


    So here's the sorry tale of my 2004 Chevrolet Cavalier:

    Coming back from Iraq in 2004 I ordered a car built for me from the USO. This was a perk for troops returning from deployment as we would not have to pay dealer's fees and could get them factory direct. Unfortunately they only offered American built cars.


    Look- I'm as patriotic as the next guy...but the history of quality problems and the complete lack of accountability in the General Motors manufacturing plants (mainly due to an inflexible UAW) is LEGENDARY throughout this country.

    Anyways- on with the story- the car is picked up in my hometown of Philadelphia. Right from the start I take care of it as I should: Oil changes RELIGIOUSLY every 3000 miles and constant checks by my local garage. Alas- it was all for naught!

    Here's a record of the issues:

    25,000 miles: Hydraulic leak in the gear shifting (it's a standard) leads me to ending up with a broken down car in the middle of a busy highway at 11pm. I find myself suddenly unable to shift into first, second, or any gear. Cost to fix: $1100! Am I pissed? Oh, hell yeah. 25,000 miles (the end of my second year of ownership) and here I am stuck with a car that cannot slip into any gear at all! I bite my tongue, pay the f&*(ng fine, and move on.

    35,000 miles: Fuel pump fails. Cost: $800.

    40,000 miles: Electrical system goes on the fritz. Cost to diagnose and repair: $700

    50,000 miles: Fuel pump fails and the engine that allows the power windows to go up and down fails. Cost: $675

    55,000 miles: $300 to flush out the DEX-COOL coolant that GM was using when they built my car that would eventually wreck it.

    70,000 miles: Waiting for the tow truck right now because the alternator just failed.

    PEOPLE: BE SMART...DO NOT BUY GM VEHICLES!! THIS HAS BEEN THE WORST CAR THAT I HAVE EVER OWNED AND I ENCOURAGE ALL OF YOU TO LOOK INTO TOYOTA OR HONDA IN THE FUTURE!! GM MAKES BAD CARS.


    Didn't mean to yell...but I'm pissed and it looks like the tow truck driver just arrived...so I have to be going. I will be calling my local representative after I go to the shop here to encourage congress NOT to bail out the pathetically awful company with any of our hard earned tax dollars. GM is failing because their cars are not as good as those of the competition. Please, people, do yourselves a favor, send these folks a message, and only drive Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chrysler, or ANYONE but GM!!

    Thanks for the time!



    http://www.my3cents.com/showReview.cgi?id=44178

  8. #8
    Senior Member Skip's Avatar
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    But it's gone away now. WooHoo!

    This page includes many great things to see and do if you are contemplating the purchase of a Chevy or GMC Suburban.

    You can…

    Thrill to the excitement of faulty brakes!

    Experience the wonder of breaking down in Utah on a Sunday afternoon!

    Marvel at the cut and thrust of verbal duels with callous General Motors representatives!

    Enter the 'which piece of plastic crap is going to fall off next' sweepstakes.

    Cringe in terror at a tale of driving around with a fuel leak, corroded battery cables and a short circuit!

    And much, much more.

    Of course, this is all in a days work for 'The most dependable, longest lasting trucks on the road *'.

    http://www.gmclemon.com/


  9. #9
    Senior Member Skip's Avatar
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    THE SAGA OF THE G.M. DIESEL: LEMONS, LAWSUITS AND SOON AN F.T.C.; Decision


    By MICHAEL DECOURCY HINDS
    Published: March 27, 1983


    WASHINGTON PETER and Diane Halferty paid $20,000 for a diesel-powered Cadillac Seville in 1979. Within three years, the General Motors Corporation replaced the diesel engine twice under warranty and rebuilt the transmission once, also under warranty. Just after the warranty expired, the third engine burned out and the Halfertys, two land developers in Seattle, were faced with a $4,500 repair bill.

    Mr. Halferty, who said he has spent $18,000 keeping his car on the road, finally, in exasperation, put a classified ad in a local paper last year. It read: ''Has your G.M. diesel auto engine failed? Ours has, let's take action, call Pete at 206-363-3221.''

    In short order, 200 people called the Halfertys and a new activist group was born: Consumers Against General Motors. ''G.M. told us we had an isolated problem, but we knew it was an epidemic,'' said Mr. Halferty, who, along with his wife, gave up paid work to organize the relatively well-off group of irate consumers and assist other groups in about 14 states to tackle the nation's No.1 auto maker.

    A million people paid premium prices for G.M.'s new diesel during the past five years and instead of the fuel economy and durability they expected, many say they got only headaches. Some of the vehicles - the Oldsmobile 350-cubic-inch V-8 diesels are used in all G.M. lines, including the Cadillac - have been in repair shops as much as they have been on the road. The prelude to getting there has, at times, been perilous, with tales abounding of sudden stall-outs in the middle of crowded highways.

    General Motors continues to make the V-8 diesel, but it is much improved and complaints have decreased sharply since 1981. Sales have also fallen sharply, down 43 percent in 1982 from 1981 levels. The loss is attributed to the rising cost of diesel fuel, now about 5 cents more per gallon than unleaded gasoline, the higher cost of diesel cars and the poor image of G.M.'s V-8 diesel engine.

    As a consequence, the auto's reputation is so sullied that trade publications, such as the Kelley Blue Book, have substantially depreciated its re-sale value. When the Halfertys tried to sell their 30-month-old Seville, for instance, dealers offered the couple only $3,500 even though they said it was booked at $14,000. Diesel owners in Virginia also complain that even G.M. dealers routinely offer only half the book value on trade-ins - if they will accept the cars for trade-ins at all.

    Lawsuits proliferate. There are individual lawsuits, group lawsuits, a New York Attorney General's lawsuit and several class actions, covering all consumers who have had problems with the V-8 diesel and type THM 200 transmissions, which are used in the diesels as well as many other G.M. cars. G.M.'s potential liability exceeds $1 billion, according to attorneys handling these cases.

    For its part, G.M. says the cases are ''wholly without merit.'' G.M. readily concedes that thousands of customers have had problems with the affected cars and claims it has already paid huge repair bills, even for some cars that were not any longer covered by warranty. But the company denies that the mechanical parts in the diesel and transmission are defective and it has primarily attributed the problems to improper maintenance and the poor quality of some diesel fuels.

    Meanwhile, the Government itself has not been idle. The Federal Trade Commission has responded to the cries of diesel owners and spent the past two years trying to prove in court that G.M. failed to warn buyers and current owners that more than four million vehicles were defective. Once the F.T.C. became involved, G.M. moved to defuse the issue by setting up a binding arbitration settlement mechanism at the Better Business Bureau for unhappy diesel owners.

    In the F.T.C.'s 1980 complaint, the commission said that cars and pickup trucks built between 1975 and 1980 had defective Oldsmobile 350-cubic-inch V-8 diesel engines or type THM-200 transmissions or cam shafts in 305-and 350-cubic inch V-8 engines, or some combination of these. But in fact, as many as 12 million vehicles in G.M.'s six divisions could be involved since the company continued to sell and still continues to sell - modified versions of the products after the original complaint was made. WHEN it comes to auto defects, the F.T.C. worries about failures notc overed by warranty or failures that regularly occur right after w arranties expire. The National Highway Traffic Safety A dministration is only concerned with safety defects. The G.M. dieselc ase, which could arguably fit into either jurisdiction, was s omething of a political football between the agencies since it is p otentially the most costly automotive defect case ever initiated.

    But, in a peculiar twist of regulatory fate, the case seems to be proving too big even for the F.T.C. The commission staff has recommended that the entire problem be turned over to volunteer arbitrators at the Council of Better Business Bureaus Inc., the national, nonprofit, business-sponsored complaint handling organization. Such a recommendation is unprecedented.

    The five-member commission, which may accept, reject or modify the staff proposal next month, is expected to accept it rather than spend millions of dollars more and possibly a decade in court to resolve it in more routine fashion. In part, senior staff attorneys say, this reflects the Administration's desire to resolve sticky regulatory matters as soon as possible. In part, it is a reflection of the agency's cumbersome regulations, which require that it first prove G.M. knowingly failed to disclose defects, and then go back to court all over again to get financial redress for consumers. That process, according to those close to the case, could involve two trips to the Supreme Court during which Congress could intervene and close the case at will by passing specific legislation.

    ''We just don't have the ability, stamina or political climate to take on the country's biggest companies,'' said one senior staff attorney.

    Consumer activists are outraged by the F.T.C.'s apparent plans and view them as counterproductive and redundant. ''The commission is turning its back on consumers by requiring so many people with common problems to prove their cases individually in arbitration,'' said Clarence M. Ditlow 3d, director of the Center for Auto Safety, a Washington-based consumer group founded by consumer advocate Ralph Nader and Consumers Union. ''The F.T.C. is essentially giving consumers nothing since they can already take their case to arbitration,'' he added.

    Under the anticipated settlement, G.M. would pay the Better Business Bureau for a new settlement program - one to provide nonbinding arbitration for possibly hundreds of thousands of consumer complaints. To facilitate the process, arbitrators would be briefed on the mechanical problems and the controversy's history. Impartial experts would also participate in hearings. Other details of the new process are still confidential.

    Under ground rules less favorable to consumers, the bureau has arbitrated more than 3,000 consumer complaints about G.M. diesels during the last two years. Neither G.M. nor the bureau, would discuss these decisions, which were binding on consumers.

    Consumers who used the existing process cannot seek awards greater than the value of their car, nor compensation for such things as towing, repeated repairs and car rentals. In addition, the bureau does not allow its panels of three arbitrators to handle more than two similar cases, nor does it require that consumers are adequately represented or assisted by technical experts. Arbitrators are community volunteers who receive three and a half hours of training in arbitration, according to the bureau.

    One arbitrator, Irwin Krigsman, a junior high school principal from Seattle, was asked to settle a diesel complaint last month - a year after his brief training. At the hearing, Mr. Krigsman said his fellow lay arbitrators overruled his request for an impartial engineer to assess G.M.'s expert testimony. The majority also rejected the consumer's complaint primarily on grounds that the warranty had expired.

    The F.T.C. staff cannot speak publicly about the pending settlement because it is considered confidential until the five-member commission acts. But they argued anonymously that arbitration could benefit consumers. ''Remember,'' said an agency attorney, ''that arbitration is very informal. Arbitrators are not confined by warranty provisions, strict rules of evidence or any law at all. They have complete authority to decide what is fair and just.'' And, under the the settlement, consumers would be permitted to appeal decisions in court. G.M. approves of the case-by-case arbitration plan because the c ompany contends that each case is unique. ''No two failures are a like,'' said Lawrence R. Sessoms, G.M.'s attorney in charge of c onsumer services. ''The failures have occurred at different m ileages, for different reasons, following different treatment by d ifferent consumers.''

    Thousands of G.M. customers disagree. About 10,000 diesel owners have organized in about 14 states, including New York, Michigan and Oregon. And they want G.M. to offer a uniform redress program. Some groups, like New York City's Lemon On Wheels, are satisfied with G.M.'s ad hoc response to date. But Mrs. Halferty, who heads Consumers Against G.M., said the company was treating members of her group very inconsistently.

    Meanwhile, litigation drags on. Three class-action suits, which seek to recover about $500 million for owners of 1977 to 1980 diesel cars, have been filed in New York and California. Another class-action suit, which has been awaiting trial for three years, seeks several hundred million dollars for owners of 1976 to 1979 G.M. cars equipped with THM 200 transmissions. These suits will be unaffectd by the F.T.C. settlement. If it is made final, consumers can seek reimbursement in arbitration while still suing for remaining claims.

    Company officials refuse to comment on the pending litigation, the proposed settlement or even to respond to technical questions relating to the auto equipment.

    The diesel, however, has a short, but controversial history. In 1979 and early 1980, G.M. couldn't sell its new diesels in California because test cars kept breaking down during state-run emissions tests. Thomas C. Austin, who directed the state's Air Resources Board at the time, said that seven of G.M.'s nine test vehicles had transmission failures and all nine had engine problems. Mr. Austin, now a consultant to Consumers Against G.M., said the number of problems were ''extraordinary.''

    Darrel R. Sand, a former G.M. engineer who helped design the Oldsmobile V-8 diesel engine, is not surprised. He said last week that he had strongly advised his superiors at the company against putting the engine into production back in 1977 and 1978, but he said that his objections were ignored because the company needed the fuel-efficient diesel in order to meet fuel economy standards for its fleet.

    ''In test after test, we had broken crank shafts, broken blocks, leaking head gaskets and fuel pump problems,'' Mr. Sand said. ''The diesel couldn't hold up, it was a hastily converted gasoline engine with a fuel pump designed for heavy trucks.''

    In 1980, Mr. Sand said he was forced to retire for causing such a fuss about the diesel. G.M., however, would not comment on Mr. Sand's charges.


    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all

  10. #10
    Senior Member Skip's Avatar
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    GM LEMON CARS . COM

    [b]"GM is ethically and morally bankrupt." - GM put our lives at risk to save some money...

    "GM executives are driving General Motors, an American institution, into the ground..."

    GM's legal department told us: "we would have to actually get into an accident and then prove that it was GM’s fault before GM would assume any liability..."

    Are you still thinking about buying a GM vehicle? Keep reading...

    GM lemon cars intro:

    Chevrolet (Chevy), more specifically General Motors, “GMâ€

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