Thread: Donald Trump and How to Loose an Election

Originally Posted by MW

Okay, the tens of millions I speak of were killed during the settling of America. At one time in our history the actual extermination of Indians was actually a policy of the federal government. After the Civil War and during the war with the plains tribes that was the policy. It had absolutely nothing to do with the South or the South wanting Indians lands. It was the federal government that wanted the lands for settlement by Americans and the expansion of railroads. Of course this was all happening under the American flag. "Congress even voted in 1871 not to ratify any more Indian treaties, effectively announcing that it no longer sought peaceful relations with the Plains Indians."

Maybe you'll find this to be an interesting read:

Excerpt:

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I'll ask again, I wonder what Native Americans think about the American flag?

Well, perhaps you didn't understand the history of this whole endeavor which started with Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal Act of 1830 in the first half of the 19th century.

The Indian Removal Act was passed by Congress on May 28, 1830, during the presidency of Andrew Jackson. The law authorized the president to negotiate with Indian tribes in the Southern United States for their removal to federal territory west of the Mississippi River in exchange for their ancestral homelands.^[1][2][3]


The act enjoyed strong support from the non-Indian peoples of the South, who were eager to gain access to lands inhabited by the Five Civilized Tribes. Christian missionaries, such as Jeremiah Evarts, protested against the law's passage.

The Indian Removal Act was put in place to give to the southern states the land that Indians had settled on. Although the act was passed in 1830 talk between Georgia and the federal government had started in 1802. Davis states in his article that, "the federal government had promised Georgia that it would extinguish Indian title within the state's borders by purchase 'as soon as such purchase could be made upon reasonable terms'".^[10] As time had passed, southern states began to speed up the process by posing the argument that the deal between Georgia and the federal government had no contract and that southern states could pass the law themselves. This scheme forced the national government to pass the Indian Removal Act on May 28, 1830, which President Jackson agreed to divide the United States territory west of the Mississippi into districts for tribes to replace the land they were removed from. President Jackson promised this land would be owned by the Indians forever. The Indian Removal Act brought many issues to the table, such as whether it was constitutional, who had the authority to pass what, and could the sovereignty of Indians be protected as promised.


In the 1823 case of Johnson v. M'Intosh, the United States Supreme Court handed down a decision which stated that Indians could occupy lands within the United States, but could not hold title to those lands.^[11] Jackson, as was common before the American Civil War, viewed the union as a federation of sovereign states. He opposed Washington's policy of establishing treaties with Indian tribes as if they were foreign nations. Thus, the creation of Indian jurisdictions was a violation of state sovereignty under Article IV, Section 3 of the Constitution. As Jackson saw it, either Indians comprised sovereign states (which violated the Constitution) or they are subject to the laws of existing states of the Union. Jackson urged Indians to assimilate and obey state laws. Further, he believed he could only accommodate the desire for Indian self-rule in federal territories. That required resettlement west of the Mississippi River on federal lands.^[12][13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

Originally Posted by csarbww

In response to noble "Judy:"

In response to Judy’s text: “Some advice to Southerners who are offended by someone who uses their common sense, intelligence and loyalty to the United States to say the Confederate Flag should be put in a museum instead of flown on public property in these United States, it's way past time to put that flag down and your country up…. so rest assured that the Confederate flag offends far more than "Marxists" or "paranoid blacks", it offends every American who believes slavery is an abomination and worth dying in a war to end it.”

When the Communist took over Russia they tore down monuments to Christian Saints and Czars and replaced them with statues of Lenin and Stalin. Churches were turned into civic buildings. The history of Russia was to be destroyed and replaced with the reality of the new masters. The voice calling for removing the pride of the Confederacy is a voice for despotism, to obliterate the history of a people. Do you want to be a part of that? Are you aware that across the entire country monuments to Confederate soldiers are being desecrated with “black lives matter” graffiti? So why don’t you get a can of spray paint and show how noble you are by joining in the insults heaped on Southerners? Across the country they want to remove statues of Confederate war heroes on public and private land.

You flaunt the technicality of public property, are you so naïve that you think it will end with removing flags from public property? It has never been about public property. It has always been about humiliating and insulting Southerners, denying them their God given right to have pride in their heritage -- pride in their family. The effort to obliterate the symbol of Southern pride has always been about showing them ignorant Hill Billies who is the boss now. STATE flags are now to be remade excluding the distinctive Confederate “X” symbol. Retailers are refusing to sell anything with confederate symbols. Thus those who would protest against the war on their heritage are being denied even the means to protest. Small flag retailers who still sell the flag are doing record business but they are too small to keep up with the overwhelming demand.

The battle over the Confederate flag is about freedom of expression, but obviously you don’t understand that; you are offended. Winston Churchill once said that the most important protection for freedom of speech was allowing speech that was “offensive.” George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and others owned slaves. Shall we now tear down Monticello and Mount Vernon? Across the country Civil War battle fields have been turned into public parks. Should we remove all of the monuments to Confederate heroes from public lands, just leave the monuments to Yankees? But what the hell, White (Confederate) lives do NOT matter. Only Black lives matter. Just read the graffiti.

Your ignorance of history is stunning. Slavery was not the only of issue of contention between the North and the South. It was the deciding issue that led individual states to assert their right of sovereignty and attempt to go their own way. Once Secession happened the issue changed from slavery to the states’ right to secession. The Confederate battle flag did not exist until after Secession. It was never meant to be a symbol of slavery.

Did you know that only about one in five Southerners owned any slaves? Did you know that 90% of slaves were sold on the coast to slave traders, sold by their own people for the Yankee gold?

So what motivated the other 80% of Southerners to fight the Yankee aggression, maybe the right for a people to self determination?

Do you know in the voluntary army of today Southerners are a disproportionately large number of soldiers.? Don’t you lecture Southerners about loyalty; patriotism in the South is far stronger than in the Yankee North. Southerners who ancestors date back to the Civil War (The War of Yankee Aggression) have fought and died in WW I , WWII, Korea, Viet Nam and Afghanistan, died for the United States and protecting the right of Yankees to insult and humiliate them. The Confederate flag has been associated with the Nazi Swastika. What a despicable insult to good Americans. How many southerners suffered and died fighting the Nazis? By the way many of the retailers who won’t sell a Confederate flag have no problem selling paraphernalia with a Nazi Swastika.

The excuse of anti-racism is used to vilify and disenfranchising millions of Americans, Americans who have ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary war, ancestors who were here 200 years and more before the arrival of most of the self-righteous Yankees who provoke them.

I could go on and on but I must try to keep this response less than a book of history.

People who never owned slaves are supposed to apologize to people who never were slaves. Whites, most of whom never participated in segregation, are supposed to feel guilt about it and pander to people who never experienced segregation. Oh excuse me Judy that does not fit into your construction of a paradigm about “common sense and intelligence.”

Excuse this dumb, ignorant Hill Billy.

Well, my family was here before the Revolutionary War and fought in that War and their descendants fought in the Civil War for the Union. My family has been here a long, long time, and if I gave a damn I could fill out the paperwork to be a DAR but have no interest in the organization, just as I have no interest in the same lineage organization for the Civil War.

csarbww, how can you make a post about self-determination in regards to states who used the force of law against slaves to ensure they had no self-determination? Confederates who didn't have slaves fought the war to defend their potential to own one some day. There is no pride to be had for that. Come on, you're a good person, you weren't part of that abomination, no one in the South today is, ancestors make mistakes, the people of the South made huge ones, they paid dearly for it, and it's time to let it go and move on.

There's nothing wrong with self-reliance, self-determination, positions of "don't tread on me", states rights and so forth. Nothing at all, right up to the point where you use those ideals to tread on someone else who is entitled to be here, or who was already here, or who was brought here in chains. MW has raised the issue of the treatment of the Indian Tribes. A huge blemish on the United States on how that was all handled, but again, it started in the South and it went West. Were there other alternatives? They tried many different approaches, and nothing seemed to work as planned or hoped. Did evil permeate our government? Well, yes, of course it did, bad people held positions and issued terrible orders that got worse in the field as it moved along. Is anyone here today responsible for it? No, of course not. Do we want to "honor" the Americans who mishandled the Indian situation? No one has. But the Indians did fight, they did kill, some resisted, they raided, they killed settlers, they threatened the railroad situation, there were two sides to that one because Indians were free. They could have assimilated but many didn't want to. They could have been an important part of our new country, but chose not to be. They could have joined Americans in the fight against slavery, but some chose to own slaves and join the Confederacy. Native Americans are very honest by nature. They know their own history

We've all made mistakes in our lives in one way or another and the people of South did as well. No one thinks less of anyone who is in the South today because of it. When Americans fight wars and win them, we move on. Most don't even like to talk about them, certainly never want to dwell on them, unless the work wasn't finished and things still need to be done to fix the whole issue that led to the war to begin with. That's all that's happening here, just an action to fix some parts of the issue that haven't been cured yet.

It's an historic moment in our country that should be welcomed and applauded. I know that's how I feel about it. Of course, you're free to feel differently, and I will think no less of you because of it, but I have such confidence in the American people, including Americans of the South, that I not only hope but believe this "flag thing" will be put down and our country raised up.

I'm from a part of the country that was a border state, the Mason Dixon Line ran through the middle of our state and I was raised in the part that was well South of that line. While the state was a slave state, it fought for the Union, so the phrase that describes some parts of the Civil War where "brother fought against brother", was no more applicable anywhere than in my home state. So am I a Yankee or a Southerner? I'm neither.

I'm an American, which for me, is quite enough to be.

Originally Posted by Judy

Well, perhaps you didn't understand the history of this whole endeavor which started with Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal Act of 1830 in the first half of the 19th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

You've completely left the reservation (off topic), Judy.

The Indian Removal Act of 1830 has absolutely nothing to do with my post or the topic we're discussing.

Dear Judy:

I suppose that you are a nice person. Perhaps my text to you has been too caustic. But you just don’t get it. There is no way that the Confederate battle flag can be removed from public areas without insulting and humiliating good and decent patriots. The act itself carries the message that there is something evil and shameful about that flag and therefore the people who love it are themselves evil. Try as you may, the two can not be separated.

So here it is plain and simple: that flag does not come down. You can take it down by force because you have a government monopoly on the use of violence. A government can kill people, kidnap them and hold them captive without reprisals. But when a people are abused by such a “government” it will ultimately become very ugly. That flag does not come down, certainly not because somebody decides that it offends them. The activities of people in a free society will always “offend” somebody. That flag does not come down. You will have to pry it from my cold dead fingers. And all of the righteous rhetoric about the evils of slavery will not change the act of despotism that denies good and decent people the right to honor their ancestors. Every day you can see that the war on Confederate heritage has nothing to do with “public” property. It is about destroying real history and recreating a new false one that fits the “history” the American despot Osama and his Gestapo wants.

Do you want to be a part of that?

Originally Posted by csarbww

Dear Judy:

I suppose that you are a nice person. Perhaps my text to you has been too caustic. But you just don’t get it. There is no way that the Confederate battle flag can be removed from public areas without insulting and humiliating good and decent patriots. The act itself carries the message that there is something evil and shameful about that flag and therefore the people who love it are themselves evil. Try as you may, the two can not be separated.

So here it is plain and simple: that flag does not come down. You can take it down by force because you have a government monopoly on the use of violence. A government can kill people, kidnap them and hold them captive without reprisals. But when a people are abused by such a “government” it will ultimately become very ugly. That flag does not come down, certainly not because somebody decides that it offends them. The activities of people in a free society will always “offend” somebody. That flag does not come down. You will have to pry it from my cold dead fingers. And all of the righteous rhetoric about the evils of slavery will not change the act of despotism that denies good and decent people the right to honor their ancestors. Every day you can see that the war on Confederate heritage has nothing to do with “public” property. It is about destroying real history and recreating a new false one that fits the “history” the American despot Osama and his Gestapo wants.

Do you want to be a part of that?

I am a nice person, and I'm sure you're a nice person as well. We have a different opinion on whether the battle flag of a defunct defeated short lived nation created to perpetuate slavery should be flown on state capitol buildings or on their grounds or as in Mississippi made part of their state flag and so on and so forth.

You have every right to honor your ancestors in any private manner you wish, same as I do and every other American does. But honoring ancestors who seceded from the nation and fought a war to maintain slavery in our little land of the free and home of the brave is a little strange, isn't it? I mean that whole deal has been over for 150 years, that's 6 generations of ancestors to honor who had nothing to do with it, so why not honor them and take it down, for them?

Are you aware that the first time the Confederate flag flew after the Civil War at the state capital in Charleston was in 1962, in defiance of the Civil Rights Movement? South Carolina didn't fly the Confederate flag on state capitol grounds in South Carolina to honor Confederate ancestors, it was to resist the equal rights movement of black Americans. No flag honoring the "heritage" and "ancestors" for almost 100 years, then out of the blue in 1962, up it goes. Was it done for "tradition", "heritage", "honor"? It was not about any of that. It was done to sneer and jeer at oppressed black Americans struggling and fighting for equal rights in our country. While that may be a long-standing tradition and part of the heritage there for some, there is certainly no honor in it.

I have no desire or intention to take down the flag. I want the people of the states who fly this flag to take it down, because they should, because it's the right thing to do, and because they know it was wrong to ever fly it to begin with.

As to "abuse" by the federal government, there's so much of that already. ObamaCare is abuse, income taxes are abuse, NSA spying is abuse, shipping our jobs overseas through free trade treason is abuse, unfettered uncontrolled unstopped illegal immigration is abuse, the War on Drugs is abuse, unbalanced budgets with more than $18 trillion in national debt is abuse. There is real abuse of our citizens by the federal government, but none of it has anything to do with whether or not South Carolina and other states want to continue flying the Confederate Flag to broadcast their opposition to equal rights for black Americans. That's something the people of those states will have to decide, and I hope they decide to put the flag down and raise our country up.

And, I believe they will. But yes, it's their choice, and a choice they should appreciate. There are no other nations in the world that I'm aware of who would allow a nation they defeated to fly its battle flag in their country on public property.

Originally Posted by MW

I wonder what Native Americans think about the American flag? After all, it was flown proudly while the largest genocide in the world was taking place. Yep, tens of millions of our Native Americans were killed under the American flag. Just saying .......

Wow, just proved you really never attended a single history class or picked up a single history book. How many Native Americans were killed do you think? Considering how sparsely populated the US was then and the size of the battles at that time one could surmise no more then a couple hundred thousand at best. Now also remember many of those *Native Americans* wages regular war on each other while only some of the tribes were peaceful. Also do you really think those Native Americans were actually the first on the land that later became the US? Through studying ancient history its pretty easy to see a very common cycle where one civilization comes and stomps out another be it through war, culture, or disease and as such its unlikely anyone could call them the Original Americans.

But more importantly as the *largest genocide* there have been far greater genocides and many of them. Attila killed far more, Alexander killed far more, and the list could go on and on. But the biggest would be a toss up between the genocides caused by Islam or Christianity. Both religions spread through war, murder, and forcing the new religion across their worlds. Both have killed tens of millions or more in the push of their religion.

Still in the end are we liable for the sins of our ancestors or can we make ourselves new again in a modern world with new ideals. After all if we can't get past the sins of our ancestors as you sound to be suggesting I'll let you go first in paying that price.

Originally Posted by MW

You've completely left the reservation (off topic), Judy.

The Indian Removal Act of 1830 has absolutely nothing to do with my post or the topic we're discussing.

It has everything to do with your post, but yes, your post had nothing at all to do with the topic we're discussing. I found it interesting nonetheless and decided to respond to it. I hope you don't mind. After all, that is how it's supposed to work, someone posts something, and then someone reads it and some respond.

Dear Jud in reply to your quote:

“I am a nice person, and I'm sure you're a nice person as well. We have a different opinion on whether the battle flag of a defunct defeated short lived nation created to perpetuate slavery should be flown on state capitol buildings or on their grounds or as in Mississippi made part of their state flag and so on and so forth.”

I have tried to be nice to you but now I have lost my patience. Are you that dense or just drunk on self-righteousness?

I have explained over and over that the issue is not the appropriate use of public land. It is about a deliberate effort to destroy the history of an entire people. It is about an “historic genocide.” Apparently you are a willing participant.

You insists that the only reason for the Confederate States of America was to perpetuate slavery. Your feeble answerer as to why 80% of the dirt poor farmers who made up the Confederate army was that some day, perhaps they could own a slave. That is not only lame but also insulting. None of those Confederate soldiers had delusions of grandeur about getting enough money to buy a slave. The diaries and letters of Confederate soldiers never, ever, talked about slavery or owning slaves. It was not even a part of their thinking.

But you insist on insulting the heirs of those brave and honest men because of your psychotic, self-righteous obsession about the evils of slavery.

So here it is once again plain and simple : That flag is never, ever going to come down. And you and all of you self-righteous Yankee pukes can go to ...Inside of every self-righteous liberal is a tyrant screaming to get out .

Originally Posted by csarbww

Dear Jud in reply to your quote:

“I am a nice person, and I'm sure you're a nice person as well. We have a different opinion on whether the battle flag of a defunct defeated short lived nation created to perpetuate slavery should be flown on state capitol buildings or on their grounds or as in Mississippi made part of their state flag and so on and so forth.”

I have tried to be nice to you but now I have lost my patience. Are you that dense or just drunk on self-righteousness?

I have explained over and over that the issue is not the appropriate use of public land. It is about a deliberate effort to destroy the history of an entire people. It is about an “historic genocide.” Apparently you are a willing participant.

You insists that the only reason for the Confederate States of America was to perpetuate slavery. Your feeble answerer as to why 80% of the dirt poor farmers who made up the Confederate army was that some day, perhaps they could own a slave. That is not only lame but also insulting. None of those Confederate soldiers had delusions of grandeur about getting enough money to buy a slave. The diaries and letters of Confederate soldiers never, ever, talked about slavery or owning slaves. It was not even a part of their thinking.

But you insist on insulting the heirs of those brave and honest men because of your psychotic, self-righteous obsession about the evils of slavery.

So here it is once again plain and simple : That flag is never, ever going to come down. And you and all of you self-righteous Yankee pukes can go to ...Inside of every self-righteous liberal is a tyrant screaming to get out .

Well apparently you missed the post where my question raised on another forum several years ago of why did the South support slavery, secession and the bloodiest war ever fought by Americans when such a small % owned slaves. I've never understood why those who didn't own slaves would vote to secede and fight a war to defend it. And no one would answer the question until one day someone did. A Native American by the way, and that is the answer he gave me and no one challenged it or offered another.

The flag of the Confederacy is not your history, it doesn't write the history and it didn't make it. Your history is whatever it is because your ancestors made it and your making it today for future generations. There is absolutely nothing "self-righteous" about my opinion that no state government in this country should fly the flag of a defeated defunct nation on public property.

And yes I believe that flag is coming down, the license plates are coming off, and all this silly hoopla is going to end.

No one is questioning the character, bravery or honesty of dead soldiers. People including myself are questioning the correctness of flying the flag of a defeated defunct nation that caused the bloodiest war Americans have ever fought, a flag that did not fly for 97 years until it was raised to sneer and jeer at black Americans fighting for equal rights in 1962. And the consensus is, that flag should not fly on public property in the United States.

Do you really think that the good men from the South who fought in that awful war would be proud to see their defeated battle flag flying like some cheap trinket ornament reminding everyone who sees it of the darkest days in our country's history filled with division, secession, money quarrels, slavery, war and the agony of defeat? Do you really believe decent honest men would want their role in a war they lost glorified by their "heirs"?

Well, if that is the case, then it is most peculiar. None of the men in my family who fought in WWII would even talk about it, and they won their war. They didn't want a Memorial either. They wanted to come home and forget. They did their jobs and it was over.

How is this really relevant to the topic really. Just because Trump agreed it was time to take down that flag which doesn't mean he wants to erase that entire piece of history. What other politician should we support then? Rubio? Bush? Clinton? Trump has the best chance imo and at times he may take the middle road on some topics that aren't really serious issue (after all you can't call the conferate flag a serious issue in light of immigration, illegal aliens, trade wars, and the welfare state). Trump would end up picking up a LOT of independents I think if he can take the primary and I'm thinking come a point closer it may even be pushed to get independents to vote in primaries where its allowed for them and even in places its not... just a hunch.