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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by roundabout
    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

    "reason and experience both forbids us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." George Washington

    I post these quotes not as a poke in the eye to those that may find offense, but to show that this country was not founded by atheists or Moslems, but by Christians.

    Morality is different for a Christian than for others, just ask a member of a head hunting tribe, or a cannibal.

    The atheist has the protection of the Christian, and the Christians that came before us who gave us all a Constitution that allows for the atheist's lack of belief. Ask that of other countries or religions and see what you get.

    Where is the land of the atheists? And what have they offered to men?

    God gave us free will. Does the atheist extend this freedom to others in a free manner? Or do they find offense in the faith of others and claim that their space has been violated? How is it that the atheists finds offense in something they profess not to believe in? Should all Christians vanish, what would the atheists be left with?

    With that said, I should prefer a Christian leader in politics, not to preach, but as a buffer from tyranny.
    "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

    Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

    "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

    "When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

    "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
    all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

    "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

    "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

    "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)


    I would rather a president not believe in nonsense, because that shows me that his view of reality isn't altered by 2000 year old belief systems.
    Don't think about all the things you fear, just be glad you're here.

  2. #12
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    DarthIllegal, may I ask if you are Wiccan, agnostic or atheist? There is no real reason to come after other members who may be practicing their religion, and throwing out the lessons they believe to try to make sense of the current quagmire in every aspect of the lives of Americans today.
    This is a website about ILLEGAL ALIENS, no matter what belief they embrace or don't embrace. This is not a religious matter, but rather a matter of current law not being enforced. Religion is a peripheral issue.
    Join our efforts to Secure America's Borders and End Illegal Immigration by Joining ALIPAC's E-Mail Alerts network (CLICK HERE)

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by roundabout

    Where is the land of the atheists? And what have they offered to men?

    God gave us free will. Does the atheist extend this freedom to others in a free manner? Or do they find offense in the faith of others and claim that their space has been violated? How is it that the atheists finds offense in something they profess not to believe in? Should all Christians vanish, what would the atheists be left with?

    With that said, I should prefer a Christian leader in politics, not to preach, but as a buffer from tyranny.
    Notice how I said I could care less whether Obama was Christian or Muslim. I just want to know that he's a moral person.

    I don't get offended by Christians or ever feel I need to put them down, else I wouldn't have any friends frankly. I respect your beliefs and want people to have the freedom to believe whatever they want just as long as they don't harm others. I just want people to know that you don't have to believe in a God to be a moral person. I respect my fellow man and pains me to see him suffer because I can imagine myself in their place, not because I want to get a pat on the back from some God or for fear of his wrath if I didn't. I owe my character to my upbringing and I understand not everyone is fortunate to have that, so I see how religion, as an institution, has a good track record of helping these people out and I praise it for that alone.

    We, not religion, have to install good morals in in our children. If all fails, then I can see religion as a last resort. I see religion more as a tool to help those who can't help themselves if it has to come down to it, but not a requirement.

  4. #14
    Senior Member roundabout's Avatar
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    DarthIllegal, other than two of your posted quotes, I find much God given wisdom in them.

    One of the two I would have to do some research on further but venture to jump to the conclusion that the wisdom is somewhere to be found in one, the other I will not try and defend.

    The Reformation of the Church is one of the keys to understanding the founding fathers and others of the time. The main key is found in prayer and The Bible.

    The understanding of free will also helps when trying to understand others.

    My original post was not meant to poke you, or anybody else in the eye, it was meant to invoke thought when looking at the past in a historical perspective. Even the European atheist was influenced by the Christians that he was surrounded by.

    When hunting for evil and wickedness one need not look far.

  5. #15
    Senior Member roundabout's Avatar
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    xfighter, I respect your opinion. The reason I posted was that I cannot help but understand that there is a constant assault on Christianity and the historical perspectives of the founding of our nation, not just the framers and their faith or lack thereof. This idea if the history is assaulted enough eventually we will win our new found perspective is disingenuous. I defend history for what it was, not what some would wish for so that it could fit their agenda. A hatred for religion, or Christianity will not change history.

    The phrase "separation of church and state" is a perfect example. That simple phrase has been so misconstrued that it has taken on a life of its own.

    "The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly-it must confine itself to few points and repeat them over and over." Joseph Goebbles

  6. #16
    Senior Member TexasBorn's Avatar
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    Most of us find our moral compass through belief in a supreme deity. This is true of great leaders throughout history. It is the misinterpretation or corruption of religion that creates misery and disenchantment.
    ...I call on you in the name of Liberty, of patriotism & everything dear to the American character, to come to our aid...

    William Barret Travis
    Letter From The Alamo Feb 24, 1836

  7. #17
    Senior Member AmericanElizabeth's Avatar
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    I can agree roundabout, we are a "Christian nation" and that is iexaclty what got us here, I am all for a REAL Christian president, if we can ever get one....but lately, we have been getting pretenders that just use it for our votes, and nothing could be worse, as well it give those of us who are real, a black eye to those who are not and do not understand real Christianity.
    "In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however,the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." Join our efforts to Secure America's Borders and End Illegal Immigration by Joining ALIPAC's E-Mail Alerts network (CLICK HERE)

  8. #18
    Senior Member roundabout's Avatar
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    AE wrote,
    I am all for a REAL Christian president, if we can ever get one....but lately, we have been getting pretenders that just use it for our votes,
    If we were to get a REAL Christian as President or any other office for that matter, would we be wise enough to know it, collectively speaking? What is in a man's heart is hard to judge from a distance, time and decisions will tell. But, politics is determined by political power. Political power is transferred from the constituent to the politician and/or the political party. Be it power from the constituent with money, or the power of the constituency through their faith. In other words if much of the constituency transfers their power in a way not consistent with Biblical teachings, the power given will be diminished in quality. We will get what we deserve as a whole. (I believe our founders understood this very well)

    As a society what quality of power do we transfer to our political leaders?

    The monied interests in this country have not only corrupted the political class, but the society as a whole as well. Thus a large portion of society transfers selfish desires and this shows in the political sphere in many places.

  9. #19
    Senior Member AmericanElizabeth's Avatar
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    So true Roundabout, so true. Seems those of us who want someone who is truly honest and moral, are left behind because those with money who can influence, are not (moral and honest).

    1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out.
    1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
    1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    "In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however,the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." Join our efforts to Secure America's Borders and End Illegal Immigration by Joining ALIPAC's E-Mail Alerts network (CLICK HERE)

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by vortex
    DarthIllegal, may I ask if you are Wiccan, agnostic or atheist? There is no real reason to come after other members who may be practicing their religion, and throwing out the lessons they believe to try to make sense of the current quagmire in every aspect of the lives of Americans today.
    This is a website about ILLEGAL ALIENS, no matter what belief they embrace or don't embrace. This is not a religious matter, but rather a matter of current law not being enforced. Religion is a peripheral issue.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to ruffle feathers. I didn't bring up the subject, I only offered my opinion after the topic had been started. Personally, I don't know what to call myself. I think I'm agnostic. I believe in God, just not an evil god like the bible. Considering the universe we live in is teeming with other lifeforms, religion has no place in the grand scale of things. It is man made to absolve ones self to be forgiven for their heinous acts.
    Don't think about all the things you fear, just be glad you're here.

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