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  1. #21

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    Re: i

    Quote Originally Posted by vistalad
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    The teachers need to step up to the plate and do more work with this kids, who are being prepped to fail by their families.
    Sad to say that there's absolutely no chance that that will work - and for the reasons cited by bigtex, above.

    Those kids are up against their own culture. I taught "failing students" when getting a secondary teaching credential. In my case it was blacks who were bused in to a white upper middle class high school. Absolutely refused to learn. Played cards in the back of the room. The regular teacher walked out and left that mess to me. I tried, but got almost nowhere. Good teachers - and all of the credentialed teachers that I encountered were good - can inspire students, but only if they are willing to be inspired.

    A variation on your suggestion will work. The most important resource for any school in parental involvement in the form of emotional support for their children's education. Parents don't have to be proficient, they only have to provide emotional support. Several years ago I wrote to the members of the local board of education, recommending that administrators and senior teachers be assigned to meet individually with parents re the necessity of their providing emotional support. Got nowhere; am currently trying again.
    Vistalad, I can imagine your frustration trying to reach these kids who had many years of programing not to take education seriously. I hear you and agree. The parents are the key.

    At my brother's school district in Canada, a teacher would make a home visit for each student, before the start of every school year. That way the teacher could better understand the chlld's home environment, and had an opportunity to discuss with the parents what they could do to assist their child academically.

    You are absolutely right. For the kids who have no support, the school districts should be working with the parents to let them know why it is important for their kids to do well at school, and what it takes from the family to make it happen. Unfortunately, we have to ask our teachers to do even more to try and reach these kids, and undercut the parents' ant-education values.

    My son went to school that was almost entirely Hispanic, only 11% white. I was PTA President, so was around the school and the kids a great deal. Very few Hispanic parents had any involvement with the school, whether it was the PTA. or Booster Club, or parent teacher meetings.

    The Hispanic kids who had parental support did great. Some Hispanic kids with no support at all, with families who were homeless , living out of cars, rose above the situation and finished with full scholarships to college. It was truly remarkable. One even ended up at MIT.

    Other Hispanic kids were well aware of the difference in terms of home support between the white and asian kids and themselves. They said they wished they had parents who would remind them of due dates for projects, review their work, etc. I tried to set up a "designated nag" program, asking other parents to mentor these kids, but did not get enough volunteers. But the kids who did have parental support, mainly whites and asians, set up an ad hoc system to help their fellow students. Those kids who wanted an education, of all races, were a pretty tight group.

    But there was a large segment of the class, mostly Hispanic, who had not been taught the value of education, or how to approach it. Their parents said things like, " I ony have a grade 8 education, so why do you want to go to college, do you think you are better than me?" Some of the involved Hispanic parents explained to me that in Latino culture, a kid is considered an adult when they hit 13, and so the parents thinks their job is done when the kids reach high school, and the kids is on his own. They also need the kids to start working to supplement the family income. These kids are really being set up to failby their parents.

    A big ^5 for your continued effort to help underperforming kids. Have you considered running for the school board itself? In our district, the school board trustees always turned up at the PTA District counsel meetings. It was a great opportunity to bend their ear one on one. Given the achievement gap, one would think that the educational powers that be would be willing to listen to any suggestion for improvement. But in my experience, if it is anything where the teachers' union has a say, it won't happen.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by GaPatriot
    Anyone can learn, even from the worst teacher. It is the fault solely of parents who do not demand that they go to school and behave or else, do their homework or else, and respect teachers and parents. No teacher, social worker, police officer or even priest who can overturn the harm of parents who do not value education or even the country and its values that they broke into.

    As long as we reward parents who should not have children they cannot afford, this will not change. It is unreasonable to expect a teacher to "work with them".

    If a child fails, they should be required to go to summer school, and the parent should have to pay. They need some skin in the game.

    I made my son go to summer school one year, not because he failed, but he did not do his best. I was damned if he would sleep late and enjoy his summer. I only did that one time. BTW, he is now a VP of his firm.
    No question about it, parents make the difference. Kids who have parents like you who demand their kids perform are going to succeed. Not just because they are held to aco****, but because it shows how much the parents value education.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanElizabeth
    GaPatriot, parental accountability is a huge issue in this.

    My oldest was in high school, and found out how to skip school and also intercept the automated calls at home regarding her absence. Once we did get wind of it all, she was in serious trouble and we then started working with the school, but THEY refused to help us keep her there. WE did our best, but in the end, she was behind and instead of working with us, the school counselor, with the approval of the principal, told us to have her get her GED............

    Most time, it is the parents, but sometimes it is the particular school that enable the issues.

    Then when our son (now 16) was in grade school, and was struggling, we asked for some sort of tutoring help, they stated they did not qualify for Title I funds, and could not provide any help, and we would have to pay for a tutor. We could not, and they sat back while he fell further behind and we struggled ourselves to work with him.

    These two particular districts we had been in have high anchor baby populations, we are not sure if this added to the schools apathy in their jobs, or not, but know it has really plugged up the system and draining funds.

    I have heard similar stories, like our own, and know American parents are becoming more and more frustrated, but a great deal of the parents, especially those who are non-English speakers, seem to simply be hands off with their kids education, they really do not seem to care.
    ........

    The way you and your children were treated by your public school system is appalling!

    It is tough when you have a teenager in full rebellion, and even tougher when the school districrt does not have program to help these kids.

    In our district, here in CA,, and also at my sister in law's in VA, they have alternative high schools just for kids like your daughter, who, for whatever reason, do not fit into the normal high school routine. My niece went to one and from looking like she would be high school drop out, she went on to graduate, go to college and become a doctor. Not every kid fits the mold.

    And your school should be trying to help find a tutor for your son. Even if the teachers' union won't allow the teachers to help out, or they don't want to, the school should have a list of organizations and people you can turn to. You should check with your PTA. It could also be that your son could be tutored by a fellow student (members of high school Key Clubs sometimes do this). You should also check at your locat colleges to see if they have any student volunteers. Another option would be to ask at a local senior's center if anyone would be willing to help out.

    My son went to an almost all Hispanic school. In discussing it with the few Hispanic parents who were involved I found out:

    1. In their culture, when you hit 13 you are considered an adult and many Hispanics, especially reccent arrivals, consider their parent role is over.
    2. In their culture, they, espeically new arrivals, have absolute deference for educators. They think the teacher, being educated (and they are not) knows best. They will never question a teacher or make demands. They hand over their kids and leave it entirely up to the teacher.
    3. The parents are often working 2 jobs and have no time for involvement.
    4. They, especially new arrivals, don't value education. They think it is more important to get a job, and help the family. That is what they think being hard working means, not succeeding at school.

    It is a real problem. We, of course know that you cannot have that attitude in a first world country like ours, and have your kids succeed.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanElizabeth
    draindog, keep a tight grip on your kids. It is the best you can do for them.

    The only reason we had such a hard time with our oldest is that she had bi-polar. We tried with all our might to get help, to figure out why such extremes in her emotions, but we waved off by teachers, counselors and doctors with "she's just a teenage girl, it will blow over and calm down in a few years". No it did not till she was 24 and was diagnosed with it, explained as "Bi-polar with rapid cycling". Now she is married with an almost 5 year old son, going to college full-time.

    Our younger two are home-schooled, so not being indoctrinated into the liberal Oregon public school mindset.
    My daughter is also bi-polar and we did not get it diagnosed until she was in college. At least we are learning more about this disease, so hopefull schools will be more atuned and other parents can get the necessary help.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  5. #25
    Senior Member bigtex's Avatar
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    Re: i

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    The teachers need to step up to the plate and do more work with this kids, who are being prepped to fail by their families.
    I can promise you that teachers already do this. I spend 90+ hours a week working with kids.

    I have one of the kids I teach who is 15 years old. He has a learning disability and is under the special education program. There are lots of teachers involved with helping this kid and tons of taxpayer's money, yet he doesn't show up for school and despite the courts getting involved, his father doesn't make him come either. The parent has already paid a fine and even served some time in jail over it. Yet the kids still misses every other day. When he does come he will not do any work. Why? Because he is too busy skipping classes and getting high on inhalants. Last week he finally got caught with them and has now been sent to an alternative school. The kid is already a few brain cells short of a full deck and what does he do but try his best to kill more brain cells. In the mean time there is a full staff of professional adults doing the best to educate this kid. We make phone calls almost daily to get parents involved and they don't have much to say other then they want their kid to drop out and get a job. Yet this full staff of professional teachers is held accountable because children like that will fail state accountability exams putting our jobs in jeopardy. When mom and dad don't care how do you expect a kid to? How do you expect teachers to educate those who don't want to be educated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    Vistalad, I can imagine your frustration trying to reach these kids who had many years of programing not to take education seriously. I hear you and agree. The parents are the key.
    Exactly, yet teachers are held accountable. People who get into teaching get into this business because we love doing our job. But our federal government and state governments have created a situation that makes it almost impossible. We are forced to put up with discipline problems that completely disrupt the education of kids who are there to learn. Why, because our average yearly attendance is part of a one child left behind. The more butts we have in the seats the more federal money we get. So no matter how bad they act, we can't afford to lose one butt.

    The second problem is inclusion....this means kids who are mentally retarded must be placed in the same classroom with kids who are Gifted and Talented kids. So you not only have to prepare one lesson plan for a class, you have to prepare 3. You are expected to teach slow enough that those with extreme learning disabilities can keep up, but at the same time challenge the gifted and talented. So what usually happens is we lose the smart ones because things move so slow and the slow ones don't want to learn. The smart ones and slow ones become disruptive so the ones in the middle can't learn. God forbid you send a kid to the office because now you are accused of not being able to handle classroom management. It's a catch 22 and teachers and kids always get the short end of the stick.

    Now in this area there is a move to not pay extra pay for teachers who have graduate degrees. They say these have no impact on state accountability scores. How much extra pay are we talking about? $1000 for a master's and $1000 for a doctorate. What kind of message does this send to kids about the value of an education? Not too much considering how much other industries value education like this. Especially when there are not any teachers making 6 figure salaries, even after serving 35-40 years. Compare that to the superintendents of our local school districts who are making $400K+ a year (including benefits).

    Teachers have been stepping up to the plate for years but somehow we always come out to be the scape goat for parents and politicians. What is going to happen is once jobs in America start coming back, there is going to be a huge Exodus from the teaching field. Lot of baby boomers who have years of experience are about fed up with being everyone's whipping boy. What happens if they all retire. Who is going to want to teach any more and be treated like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    My daughter is also bi-polar and we did not get it diagnosed until she was in college. At least we are learning more about this disease, so hopefully schools will be more atuned and other parents can get the necessary help.
    As I am a specialist in special populations I know my school district spends quite a bit of time and money diagnosing issues like this. However, we don't test until someone suspects there might be a problem and lets us know. Who better than the parents? If parents don't see a problem with their own kids then why do they expect schools to see them. I mean no disrespect, but a child's care, well being and health is the parents' responsibility 1st. Schools should be turned into surrogate parents. We are here to educate, not raise. Somewhere in the last 20 years our purpose has changed.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member JohnnyYuma's Avatar
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    That reminds me of the old saying, "You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make it drink". There is no way those teachers can force the kids to do better IMO. Alot of kids don't do their homework in impoverished cities anyway.
    The Lord is my Sheperd, I shall not want.

  7. #27
    Senior Member AmericanElizabeth's Avatar
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    Bigtex, we begged and pleaded for help from doctors, school counselors and the principal, to no avail. We explained the issues we had with her, not normal rebellious behaviors, things such as out of control rages resulting in her smashing her fist into the walls (how many wall repairs we had to make to that place....), drinking, and also caught her "cutting" herself. Which once the "energy" of that rage was spent, she would go on her merry way as though it never happened.

    We did wind up having someone from the ESD call upon us to state, although we had given them details on the problems, and the help we were trying to get, this woman from the ESD decided the problem resided with us as the parents and there simply must be some reason, due to us, that she was this troubled. We had no idea about what being bi-polar was, and no one in my family had dealt with it, so we could not have said "oh, we think it is bi-polar", no that was not even on our minds, but we knew there was a problem beyond being a hormonal teen girl or rebellious kid.

    I cannot say how schools are in the rest of the nation, but, I know that for as long as I can remember, the schools here have been lousy, and this is not just my opinion, this is from many people I have known and just spoken to. The majority of the problem is out here, we seem to have drawn in all of the self-righteoues who govern the districts, and as well as those who are about as apathetic as a teen forced to work.

    I really cannot say why there is such a problem in Oregon, might not even be as simple as one issue. That said, we have encountered some good teachers in this path, but unfortunately, they are hindered at every turn by administrators and heavy handed rules. Sad, considering these are the very people who could turn many kids lives around and really cared.

    BettyBB, the stories I could tell you, going back to the days of my own school years (and that of my brother who has dyslexia, and was put in a class with mentally handicapped kids in high school), all the way to now with my own kids, would make you see red. Hey, only in Oregon, for some reason.
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  8. #28
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    If I were to guess, there is probably a plan already in the works to contract teachers from Mexico so that the "kids" can have teachers that understand them, their culture and the language. I think it's coming. They will probably disguise things as budget cuts or money shortages so they can fire good ol' American teachers and replace them with cheaper labor they can import or find locally. I'd keep an eye on this and see how they disguise it in other states.
    They place unreasonable demands on teachers so they either quit or get replaced. Teachers cannot make all kids do well. It's just like in life. Some do better than others. Wouldn't it be nice if society made us all earn brain surgeon salaries? Yet they expect teachers to perform miracles. Some kids do better than others. Parents just need to learn to accept that and appreciate their kids for the talents they may have and not lay blame on teachers when their kids fails in school. The more I visit my kids in school, the more I see how Hispanics are now over 50% of the school body. It's insane. You really get a feeling that our schools are turning into Mexicoville and we're losing our cultural identity to Mexico. Yet Mexico is not losing its identity to us.

  9. #29

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    Re: i

    Quote Originally Posted by bigtex
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    The teachers need to step up to the plate and do more work with this kids, who are being prepped to fail by their families.
    I can promise you that teachers already do this. I spend 90+ hours a week working with kids.

    I have one of the kids I teach who is 15 years old. He has a learning disability and is under the special education program. There are lots of teachers involved with helping this kid and tons of taxpayer's money, yet he doesn't show up for school and despite the courts getting involved, his father doesn't make him come either. The parent has already paid a fine and even served some time in jail over it. Yet the kids still misses every other day. When he does come he will not do any work. Why? Because he is too busy skipping classes and getting high on inhalants. Last week he finally got caught with them and has now been sent to an alternative school. The kid is already a few brain cells short of a full deck and what does he do but try his best to kill more brain cells. In the mean time there is a full staff of professional adults doing the best to educate this kid. We make phone calls almost daily to get parents involved and they don't have much to say other then they want their kid to drop out and get a job. Yet this full staff of professional teachers is held accountable because children like that will fail state accountability exams putting our jobs in jeopardy. When mom and dad don't care how do you expect a kid to? How do you expect teachers to educate those who don't want to be educated?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    Vistalad, I can imagine your frustration trying to reach these kids who had many years of programing not to take education seriously. I hear you and agree. The parents are the key.

    [quote:1zb9lxd2]Exactly, yet teachers are held accountable. People who get into teaching get into this business because we love doing our job. But our federal government and state governments have created a situation that makes it almost impossible. We are forced to put up with discipline problems that completely disrupt the education of kids who are there to learn. Why, because our average yearly attendance is part of a one child left behind. The more butts we have in the seats the more federal money we get. So no matter how bad they act, we can't afford to lose one butt.
    I agree parent responsiblity is the key.
    There is absolutely no reason why teachers should have to put up with discpline problems or disruptive kids, or kids who do not conform.
    But it is not the parents and kids who created the situation.
    It has been created by what I call Education, Inc. That is the numerous education committees, and county offices of education, and school district administration, and the teachers union.

    The second problem is inclusion....this means kids who are mentally retarded must be placed in the same classroom with kids who are Gifted and Talented kids. So you not only have to prepare one lesson plan for a class, you have to prepare 3. You are expected to teach slow enough that those with extreme learning disabilities can keep up, but at the same time challenge the gifted and talented. So what usually happens is we lose the smart ones because things move so slow and the slow ones don't want to learn. The smart ones and slow ones become disruptive so the ones in the middle can't learn. God forbid you send a kid to the office because now you are accused of not being able to handle classroom management. It's a catch 22 and teachers and kids always get the short end of the stick.
    Again, what parent would agree to have kids who should not be in a normal classroom, placed there? It is Education, Inc at work.

    Now in this area there is a move to not pay extra pay for teachers who have graduate degrees. They say these have no impact on state accountability scores. How much extra pay are we talking about? $1000 for a master's and $1000 for a doctorate. What kind of message does this send to kids about the value of an education? Not too much considering how much other industries value education like this. Especially when there are not any teachers making 6 figure salaries, even after serving 35-40 years. Compare that to the superintendents of our local school districts who are making $400K+ a year (including benefits).
    The accountability question is difficult. But here in our state, the kids' progess is only measured as against other kids with the some socio-economic, racial and lingquistic background. So it is a measure of how a particular teacher measures up.

    I would love to see teachers follow the private sector rules. They should receive bonuses if their kids improve above the norm. Their salaries should be set by market forces, and they should have no job security. If you want the benefits of the private sector, you have to take the negatives too. Frankly, does a masters or doctorate really help a grade school teacher? But that would be completely different for a high school teacher who is teaching an AP course. I would presume the school administration would want to pay more for better qualifications.

    Teachers have been stepping up to the plate for years but somehow we always come out to be the scape goat for parents and politicians. What is going to happen is once jobs in America start coming back, there is going to be a huge Exodus from the teaching field. Lot of baby boomers who have years of experience are about fed up with being everyone's whipping boy. What happens if they all retire. Who is going to want to teach any more and be treated like this.
    I have tremedous respect for most teachers. My kids have had some fabulous ones. They have also had some real duds, who could not be fired because of union rules.

    In the present economy, with the number of professionals and middle management people without work, I do not think there would be any problem filling all the boomers jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    My daughter is also bi-polar and we did not get it diagnosed until she was in college. At least we are learning more about this disease, so hopefully schools will be more atuned and other parents can get the necessary help.
    As I am a specialist in special populations I know my school district spends quite a bit of time and money diagnosing issues like this. However, we don't test until someone suspects there might be a problem and lets us know. Who better than the parents? If parents don't see a problem with their own kids then why do they expect schools to see them. I mean no disrespect, but a child's care, well being and health is the parents' responsibility 1st. Schools should be turned into surrogate parents. We are here to educate, not raise. Somewhere in the last 20 years our purpose has changed.[/quote:1zb9lxd2]

    You should not assume. We had our daughter evaluated by specialists, and medical doctors from the age 8 onward,and the schools were also aware of our concerns. But our daughter was a top academic achiever, junior olympic level athelete, and a school leader. She was not a behavior problem. Yet her behavior was odd, and of course, the over achieving is a system of mania.

    I was not critizing the school in my remarks to AmericanElizabeth. The fact is, in 2010 we know far more about bi polar illnes than we did even 10 years ago. But it is my experience that schools are very late to incorporate new medical theory into their system. Even now, in our district, parents have to fight for their kids who have disablities. I have a friend who moved to Texas. In her district, they test all kids in grade one.
    Smart move.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  10. #30

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    AmericanElizabeth.

    Man, you really went through the ringer. And I have heard of others with dyslexia who have had the same thing happen to them.

    Did you know a very large percentage of people in prision have been found to have learning disabilities? If our schools were more atuned, how many of these kids could receive the appropriate help, and avoid the downward spiral that failure in school can cause?

    A friend who has a developementally delayed child put her child into a school district in Texas where they test all the kids in first grade. That is just so smart.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

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