Thread: Enforcing Current Immigration Laws Will Recover Eight Millio

Originally Posted by NoBueno

Originally Posted by Lstudent

I will concede that if you deport them all, the local law enforcement will no longer have a use for illegal immigrant testimony.

That still leaves us with the solution that "No Bueno" brings up: "Mandating Local law enforcement to enforce immigration laws". Any ideas on whether the fed gov't mandating local law enforcement is practically or legally feasible? For example, I believe a mandate may run into Constitutional problems.

I disagree. There are a whole host of federal laws that local law enforcement has jurisdicition over initially. For example, bank robbery is a federal crime and yet no one would ever expect local law enforcement to disregard those crimes because they are prosecuted under federal law.

Same with illegal immigration. If a local law enforcement officer, during thr course of his regular duties, has probable cause to believe that someone is in this country illegally, he has the right to detain that individual until the proper agencies can be notified.

What's unconstitutional about that?

Not a thing. That's a police department or sheriff's organization doing the job they're paid to do.

Oops, you brought out a central problem that I didn't think of:

"Same with illegal immigration. If a local law enforcement officer, during thr course of his regular duties, has probable cause to believe that someone is in this country illegally, he has the right to detain that individual until the proper agencies can be notified."

How can an officer have probable cause to know an individual is in the country illegally? Hispanic descent and inability to speak English cannot rise to probable cause because there are many individuals who are legally in the country who A)are of hispanic descent or B)don't speak english or C) are of hispanic descent AND don't speak English. Any other suggestions that may give rise to probable cause?

Originally Posted by Lstudent

Empirical evidence is useful outside of the classroom, as well, because it is a careful analysis of data and facts upon which policy is to be made(for example, immigration policy).

I don't disagree with the following statement: "The fact of the matter is one crime committed by someone who is in this country illegally is a crime that should not have occured and could have been prevented!"

However, I still think it is helpful to carefully analyze any potential correlation between presence of illegal immigrants and crimes. The opposite, for example, could be true: the presence of illegal immigrants actually decreases the crime rate. I am not saying the latter is true, but one must carefully draw conclusions based upon carefully conducted studies, not conclusory statements on a micro-scale.

In Nassau County, New York, statistics show that : "In recent decades crime has been cut in half while the Latino population has doubled in Nassau County"

Judy: "That's not to say that illegal aliens commit more crimes at a higher rate than Americans. Whether they do or not is irrelevant." It may be irrelevant to what you said following that:

"they still need to be deported because they aren't suppose to be here taking up space, stealing jobs, reproducing, shoving their kids into our schools, themselves into our hospitals, marching in our streets, driving drunk on our streets and highways, running drugs, raping women and children or any of the other things some of them do"

But, I was responding to No Bueno's post which claimed that: "This is a circular argument because there is a substantial likelihood there would be less crime to report if in fact our immigration laws were enforced."

To say that there is a substantial likelihood there would be less crime if the immigration laws were enforced is a conclusory statement that requires empirical support. There are many factors that affect how many crimes are committed, and as such, an analysis of those factors is required to support NoBueno's claim of a circular argument.

No, NoBueno's claim doesn't require empirical support. You have to go back to the beginning of my argument. The less people, the less crime, which applies equally to both my statement and NoBueno's. And there is lots of empirical evidence about the crimes committed by illegal aliens, because there are police records of these crimes both in county and city governments as well as incarcerations records in state and federal prisons. 27% of the state prison population in the US is illegal aliens. Another 6% of our federal prison population is illegal aliens. So, by deporting illegal aliens, we'll reduce state crimes by 27% and reduce federal crimes by at least another 6%. These statistics are straight from the mouth of the Maria interviewer from Telemundo in the Lou Dobbs interview that terminated our support for him as a viable candidate for public office.

The crime rate of a Latino population in New York has nothing whatsoever to do with the crime statistics of illegal aliens. Why do you do that? Why would you try to link illegal aliens to the Latino population? Half of the Latino population in the United States are US citizens, many more are legal residents. Please avoid using the terms Latino and Illegal Alien interchangeably, because they are not interchangeable. The fact that some illegal aliens describe themselves as "Latino" has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of illegal immigration or the Latino community. Illegal immigration is blind to nationality and ethnic origin, at least on this board it is.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Lstudent wrote:

However, I still think it is helpful to carefully analyze any potential correlation between presence of illegal immigrants and crimes. The opposite, for example, could be true: the presence of illegal immigrants actually decreases the crime rate. I am not saying the latter is true, but one must carefully draw conclusions based upon carefully conducted studies, not conclusory statements on a micro-scale.

In Nassau County, New York, statistics show that : "In recent decades crime has been cut in half while the Latino population has doubled in Nassau County"

And was the increase in the Latino population in Nassau county the result of legal or illegal immigration? Are you assuming that just because there was an increase in the Latino population that it was the result of illegal immigration?

The issue is not Latinos. It's illegal immigration.

Those who immigrate in accordance to federal law would most likely be less likely to engage in criminal activity because they have already demonstrated a propensity to obey the law.

So unless you can make that distinction, the statistics are irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Lstudent

Oops, you brought out a central problem that I didn't think of:

"Same with illegal immigration. If a local law enforcement officer, during thr course of his regular duties, has probable cause to believe that someone is in this country illegally, he has the right to detain that individual until the proper agencies can be notified."

How can an officer have probable cause to know an individual is in the country illegally? Hispanic descent and inability to speak English cannot rise to probable cause because there are many individuals who are legally in the country who A)are of hispanic descent or B)don't speak english or C) are of hispanic descent AND don't speak English. Any other suggestions that may give rise to probable cause?

They do research, conduct fact-finding and investigations and take tips to establish a reasonable suspicion for a search/arrest warrant which then if successful provides the probable cause for the arrest.

Why do you keep trying to link nationality and ethnic origin with illegal immigration? What someone's nationality or ethnic origin may be is irrelevant to illegal immigration enforcement. Your effort to try and link Latino populations in New York and Hispanics to probable cause for arrests is improper and inappropriate. Please stop doing that. Illegal immigration is blind to nationality and ethnic origin, at least on this board it is.

Originally Posted by NoBueno

Lstudent wrote:

However, I still think it is helpful to carefully analyze any potential correlation between presence of illegal immigrants and crimes. The opposite, for example, could be true: the presence of illegal immigrants actually decreases the crime rate. I am not saying the latter is true, but one must carefully draw conclusions based upon carefully conducted studies, not conclusory statements on a micro-scale.

In Nassau County, New York, statistics show that : "In recent decades crime has been cut in half while the Latino population has doubled in Nassau County"

And was the increase in the Latino population in Nassau county the result of legal or illegal immigration? Are you assuming that just because there was an increase in the Latino population that it was the result of illegal immigration?

The issue is not Latinos. It's illegal immigration.

Those who immigrate in accordance to federal law would most likely be less likely to engage in criminal activity because they have already demonstrated a propensity to obey the law.

So unless you can make that distinction, the statistics are irrelevant.

Exactly! The nationality or ethnic origin of illegal aliens is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Lstudent

Oops, you brought out a central problem that I didn't think of:

"Same with illegal immigration. If a local law enforcement officer, during thr course of his regular duties, has probable cause to believe that someone is in this country illegally, he has the right to detain that individual until the proper agencies can be notified."

How can an officer have probable cause to know an individual is in the country illegally? Hispanic descent and inability to speak English cannot rise to probable cause because there are many individuals who are legally in the country who A)are of hispanic descent or B)don't speak english or C) are of hispanic descent AND don't speak English. Any other suggestions that may give rise to probable cause?

If you pull someone over and they cannot produce a drivers license or any other US goverment issued identification, probable cause would allow the officer to continue his line of questioning to include the reason they do not have a drivers license. If based upon this line of questioning the officer concludes there is a substantial likelihood they are in this country illegally, he has the right to detain them.

What if the person told the officer the reason they do not have a valid drivers license was because they are in this country illegally. Should the officer have the right to detain then?

Again, why do you continue to introduce the racial element to this argument? The questions would be the same for anyone who could not produce a valid license or other gov issued identification, irrespective of color, language or any other racial element you want to throw into the fact pattern!

Originally Posted by NoBueno

Originally Posted by Lstudent

Oops, you brought out a central problem that I didn't think of:

"Same with illegal immigration. If a local law enforcement officer, during thr course of his regular duties, has probable cause to believe that someone is in this country illegally, he has the right to detain that individual until the proper agencies can be notified."

How can an officer have probable cause to know an individual is in the country illegally? Hispanic descent and inability to speak English cannot rise to probable cause because there are many individuals who are legally in the country who A)are of hispanic descent or B)don't speak english or C) are of hispanic descent AND don't speak English. Any other suggestions that may give rise to probable cause?

If you pull someone over and they cannot produce a drivers license or any other US goverment issued identification, probable cause would allow the officer to continue his line of questioning to include the reason they do not have a drivers license. If based upon this line of questioning the officer concludes there is a substantial likelihood they are in this country illegally, he has the right to detain them.

Again, why do you continue to introduce the racial element to this argument? The questions would be the same for anyone who could not produce a valid license or other gov issued identification, irrespective of color, language or any other racial element you want to throw into the fact pattern!

Great question! I look forward to a reply to your question. Lstudent has done this twice on this one thread, even after a warning about it, once trying to link statistics on the Latino population in a county in New York and now using Hispanics as the backdrop for his discussion of probable cause for arrest warrants.

Befuddling.

For the Latino quote:

In Nassau County, Long Island(I go to school here), the much of the growth in Latino Population can be contributed to illegal immigration. Still, it may not have been the best example. But let me get back at one of the central issues that began this discussion: the feasibility of deporting all Illegal Immigrants.

Judy, you wrote:

"We're asking local law enforcement to use their authority under both the 287 (g) program as well as under USC Title 8, Chapter 12 ... section 1324 to use their resources to stop illegal immigration"

Since you are asking, not mandating, local enforcement, you must depend upon local agency cooperation. Assuming that a significant percentage of local law enforcement agencies refuse to cooperate in deporting illegal immigrants, it is not feasible to deport all illegal aliens.

Do you agree with the last sentence?

Originally Posted by Lstudent

For the Latino quote:

In Nassau County, Long Island(I go to school here), the much of the growth in Latino Population can be contributed to illegal immigration. Still, it may not have been the best example. But let me get back at one of the central issues that began this discussion: the feasibility of deporting all Illegal Immigrants.

Judy, you wrote:

"We're asking local law enforcement to use their authority under both the 287 (g) program as well as under USC Title 8, Chapter 12 ... section 1324 to use their resources to stop illegal immigration"

Since you are asking, not mandating, local enforcement, you must depend upon local agency cooperation. Assuming that a significant percentage of local law enforcement agencies refuse to cooperate in deporting illegal immigrants, it is not feasible to deport all illegal aliens.

Do you agree with the last sentence?

So the fact that you go to school in In Nassau County, Long Island is the basis of your Empirical evidence the much of the growth in Latino Population can be contributed to illegal immigration.

LOL...