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  1. #31
    Senior Member BetsyRoss's Avatar
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    Let me further elaborate on this topic by pointing out an extremely foolish article from ciol.com. Here's a quote if you need a laugh: "Tracing the industry trends in the US, he said, "It is predicted that the US would face the worst ever labor shortage in 2008, largely because the baby boomer generation which makes up for around 60 million of the US population, would retire by then."" (http://www.ciol.com/content/news/2004/104071503.asp). Talk about waiting for dead men's shoes!

    The actual baby boom, by most accounts, spanned the post war births from 1946 to 1964. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomer) How many of us are there? Around 76 million, and our leading edge is starting to approach traditional retirement age, though tradition has never meant anything to us.

    Not only did we reinvent adolescence, adulthood, and parenthood, we are now reinventing the aging process. We are remaining healthy, energetic, enthusiastic and much more youthfull than past generations tended to be. We are continuing our educations far into what India and China would consider old age.

    As for me, I'm getting great results from a fitness program, am in great health, am a (multiple) property owner, an IT manager, still very much growing and progressing in my field, and I finished a Master's (with a dual major) in my field at the age of 52. And, here's the really bad news for foreign hopefulls who'd like to unseat us all - I'm not a superstar boomer, I'm merely typical.

    I know some countries want us to step down and relinquish our jobs, but I think that at least a majority of the 76 million of us might have something to say about that.
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  2. #32
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    Truly, I had no idea that H1B, or other 'H' workers in any way contemplated staying here. I thought it was simply temporary employment and when the contract was over, the workers would return home.

    If a 'skilled worker' is coming to this country because of crooked lawyers, greed employers and purchased politicians, then why wouldn't Americans feel better if it could be stopped?

    When I hear 'things are changing and American must adapt' - that sounds like a threat to me. It is good things are changing elsewhere, that is good. It would seem to me if all these educated, intelligent, capable people would stay in their country and work to make it better - things would change much faster.

    At one time America had one of the - if not the - highest standard of living, wages, healthcare, etc., etc., in the world. Why, does America have to change? Why if others want what America has, don't they bring their countries up to America's standards? I dont' understand why 'America has to change'.

    This country didn't become what it is because our people simply worked at their jobs and made money. There was a lot more went into making it a great country.


    You know one of the favorite themes of some pro-illegal people I talk with is 'if illegals are working or getting benefits or breaking the law, you need to report it. If you don't report it, it's your fault they do."

    That kinda jibes with the idea that if those lawyers and politicians are crooked, Americans need to fix it - and the worker or illegal bears no responsibility for taking part in the lawbreaking.

    That's not the way right and wrong works. If you are knowingly benefitting from wrongdoing, you are just as guilty.

    The real question is - does America need these workers? Not do the greedy companies need these workers - not do the politicians want the money from greedy employers - but does America need these workers?

    Yes, older people do loose their jobs. Older workers usually have worked their way up the wage scale and earn more - that's the main reason. The other is the looming possibility of retirements and the costs of that.

    So an person can't make an employer hire them? Another theme of the pro-illegal activist, there. The answer is no, they can't. They shouldn't, however, be able to buy a politician to allow them to import workers from another country.

    Another favorite theme is, 'Americans are lazy, slovenly, and can't do the jobs, so someone gets the jobs.'

    So the threat is bring in foreign workers or the jobs go overseas? Another threat!! Can anyone understand why Americans, or at least me and some others, are upset? My thinking, if the alternative is we import a lot of foreign workers or we send the jobs to them - then send the jobs to them.

    Either way, as said, Americans loose the jobs.

    But maybe if Americans would truly realize what is happening, they would get together and use their money to their advantage, and change things.
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  3. #33
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    Young immigrant workers come here to pursue their american dream by exhibiting their skills. America welcomes them with a warm hug. It is everyone's dream to be a part of this country and assimilate. Corporates want to hire young fresh new blood. Thats how the process of immigration begins
    Several Points here:

    The "American Dream" (sic american dream) is neither an entitlement open to every person on the planet, nor is it necessarily and exclusively open to the most educated or highly educated. There is a place for persons of lesser skills to be invited in (under legal, planned circumstances) as well (although, sadly, this point is not discussed probably as widely as it should be). Who is let in and under which circumstances is up to the policies established by the US voting public.
    Certainly not the prospective foreign worker and definitely not the worker already here lobbying to further their cause.

    "America welcomes them with a warm hug" ????
    Taking at face value, that (I believe, based on my personal experience) that most Americans are generally welcoming people...), I believe what really is observed by the visitor is that corporate America welcomes them warmly. I don't see why Americans who's jobs are replaced by imported foreign worker should be expected to go to their demise with resigned submission. Yes, there are many of us who want to see the existing mess FIXED thoroughly - before any further increase or additions are made to the immigration bureaucracy mess. It is OUR country and we, and we alone, get to lobby for and determine which policies are enacted for the benefit of Americans. When you become an American, then and ONLY then, do you get to participate in that process as well. In the meantime, you are just a foreign worker - almost always here largely for the benefit of a private, narrowly-focused corporate interest.

    "It is everyone's dream to be a part of this country and assimilate. "
    Simply not true. While it might be the dream of a lot of people to be here, it certainly is not true that all those want to assimilate.
    The only, and I stress ONLY way to assimilate, is to do an array of critical things: 1. Learn English (preferably, US English), 2. Obey ALL laws to demonstrate respect and willingness to live by our rules and culture, 3. become a good citizen - eg. ADDING value and worth to our society and not becoming a net liability.
    The strong and obvious counterargument on this point: people in MS-13.
    To a lesser extent, visa overstays, illegal workers, border jumpers, etc.
    If that contention were true, why would we have bi-lingual, or multi-lingual voter's pamphlets, or bi-lingual phone trees ???

    Most people come here because they think the US is their personal ticket to prosperity (eg. have narrow visions about what living in the US is about). Suffice to say, that monetary / standard of living concerns are important, but almost always overblown. Our country and our people have endured horrible economic deprivation at times, but what you rarely hear about, is that the social fabric of our society is far more important and much more easily disrupted or 'torn'. Similarly, the US was never supposed to be 'all things to all people'.

    "Corporates want to hire young fresh new blood. Thats how the process of immigration begins"
    So... you're saying that the process of immigration is necessarily age discrimination?'. We have laws here - that protect people based on race, gender, religion, and yes, age as well. While they may be inconvenient for some 30-something corporate executives, these are not suggested guidelines to be adhered to when convenient, they are US LAW. Violating such civil rights laws is a VERY SERIOUS transgression here (apparently, you are unaware of this fact). There is NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS on this violation. The perp can be held liable for both for the actual damages incurred, but also can be increased by the whim of the US EEOC in multiples of the actual damages as to 'set an example' to future violators NEVER to do such law breaking in the future.
    Corporations should never be given the power to wield life or death to the citizens they employ.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member BetsyRoss's Avatar
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    Thank you, PhredE, and now we are getting to the crux of what is going wrong here. We are accused of hypocrisy, because isn't the H-1B (and its sister work visas) legal? Only when used as originally intended. The people who framed these programs were obviously not prepared for some of the twists and tricks that companies would find to pervert these programs into a large scale choice of cheaper, more docile labor. These programs need to be reexamined and changed. The proof of this is that we have American workers who were displaced by such workers - that was never supposed to happen.

    Wherever I enconter this debate, I am always being told 'that's the way the world is, accept it' and when I say 'No' then the insults start to fly, that I am stupid, uneducated, racist, a xenophobe, or all of the above.

    We simply cannot allow our labor laws and civil rights to be overrun just because people elsewhere want a piece of our economy. We either are or are not a sovereign nation, and saying no to age (and other)discrimination is, as you point our, our law.
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  5. #35
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    The bottom line is that OUR immigration policy should benefit and not harm AMERICAN CITIZENS and our environment, and should be largely determined by concerns about our enormous population explosion that has been driven almost exclusively by immigration. Our immigration policy should consider and respond to the impending deleterious consequences of this population boom, something our lawmakers and corporations have completely ignored due to their greed and lust for power. We DO NOT want to become another China or India.

    Additionally, our immigration policy should NOT focus on the needs of multinational corporations, globalists, elites, or the billon or more people who wish to come here.

    Wouldn't you want India's immigration system to function in this way? Of course. Then why should the goal of our system be different? What if India was importing large numbers of high tech workers from other Asian countries at lower wages to displace Indian citizens. Why should anyone resent Americans for having significant concerns about the impact of our current legal and illegal immigration policies on Americans? People from other countries seem to feel entitled to live here - I cannot fathom where this sense of entitlement comes from.

    The fact is that H1Bs DO make on average $12,000 less than an American and thus are being used to drive down wages for citizens. About 70% of H1Bs are hired by foreign, mostly Indian, companies operating here, and the majority of these jobs are not the top but the lowest skill level jobs.
    No matter how you spin it, Americans should be given first priority for high tech jobs in our own country, and only after companies have followed very rigorous procedures to demonstrate that they have not been able to find an American worker, can they try to hire someone on an H1B.

  6. #36
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    Thanks to you all for your views.

    If an average prospective immigrant looks at all your messages and has a weak heart, he/she will definitely have a heart attack

    It is a complex system, where there are issues everywhere.

    So it is not easy to fit what you view as your definition of "American Dream" too - you have to accept it, it is a fact.

    I do have a lot of American friends, and their views are different from yours.

    I am not 100% sure if your veiws represent the voices of America.

    I would like to thank you all for being nice to me on this forum and I will come back again and say hi, only if I am welcome here.

    Peace to you all

  7. #37
    Super Moderator imblest's Avatar
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    Most excellent posts--thank you Betsy and Phred for putting these thoughts so well!

    This whole situation is so discouraging to me because we are living it and I see no end in sight

    So it is not easy to fit what you view as your definition of "American Dream" too - you have to accept it, it is a fact.
    LegalSkilled, I would really like to hear your definition of the American Dream, if you think we have it so wrong. I am confused
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  8. #38
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    Thanks to Kate and Betsy above.

    Let me pose this question as a bit of a footnote:

    Why should corporations be given everything they say they need?

    (eg. why should the voting American public, who, BTW, might even be investor/owners of a publicly traded company - be required to take at face value, any claim of corporate hardship - especially when it has far reaching implications for the same public?)

    For us here, under US LAW, private incorporated organizations have certain legal obligations and responsibilities [and benefits, of course]. Part of that social 'contract' is that these privately-held entities agree to function within our system in a legal manner. Failure to do so, incurs certain sanctions or penalties. While not levied to perpetrators very often if at all, I believe that the law should be changed to un-incorporate particularly habitual or egregious corporate transgressors of the law.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member BetsyRoss's Avatar
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    And, if LegalSkilled doesn't think our views are mainstream, who does he think jammed the Senate phone lines when CIR was still alive?
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  10. #40
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    Yep, and not to mention, most people I talk to/know, agree with me too.

    It is not US that have to come to grips with the gravity or reality of the situation [after all, most of us have been here and involved for well over a year or more], it is our visitor and people like him/her (and their corporate slave-masters)
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