Thread: Real facts on REAL ID

jp wrote:

misrepresenting something as a hyperbole does not change the facts. The facts are not over exaggerated, I honestly wish they were exaggerated.

You're right, the "facts" aren't being exaggerated and no one has said they are. Like I said, it would be nice to see more facts and less hyperbole. Actually, it's the conjecture being used that is being greatly exaggerated, not the facts. I mean come on, using videos of folks having their doors kicked in and people being rounded up has nothing to do with the facts of REAL ID. To connect REAL ID with doors being kicked in and the round up of American citizens is nothing more than conjecture, speculation, a hypothesis, or whatever else you want to call it. Can we please deal with the facts of the program and the actual intentions behind it?

Likewise The Real ID Act allows states to issues licenses to illegals.

I beg to differ! REAL ID will make it much tougher on illegal aliens who attempt to obtain a driver's license. For the REAL ID (secure driver's license) documentation proving citizenship or legal status will be required and verified. Illegal immigrants won't be able to get Real ID licenses, but states will be allowed to issue permits allowing them to drive and obtain insurance (states can do this now). Honestly, I don't think we'll have many states eager to issue driving permits to illegals. Additionally, I don't think many illegals will be eager to step forward and identify themselves as illegals in order to obtain the permit.

Originally Posted by MW

jp wrote:

misrepresenting something as a hyperbole does not change the facts. The facts are not over exaggerated, I honestly wish they were exaggerated.

You're right, the "facts" aren't being exaggerated and no one has said they are. Like I said, it would be nice to see more facts and less hyperbole. Actually, it's the conjecture being used that is being greatly exaggerated, not the facts. I mean come on, using videos of folks having their doors kicked in and people being rounded up has nothing to do with the facts of REAL ID. To connect REAL ID with doors being kicked in and the round up of American citizens is nothing more than conjecture, speculation, a hypothesis, or whatever else you want to call it. Can we please deal with the facts of the program and the actual intentions behind it?

[quote:4k5xvu4b]Likewise The Real ID Act allows states to issues licenses to illegals.

I beg to differ! REAL ID will make it much tougher on illegal aliens who attempt to obtain a driver's license. For the REAL ID (secure driver's license) documentation proving citizenship or legal status will be required and verified. Illegal immigrants won't be able to get Real ID licenses, but states will be allowed to issue permits allowing them to drive and obtain insurance (states can do this now). Honestly, I don't think we'll have many states eager to issue driving permits to illegals. Additionally, I don't think many illegals will be eager to step forward and identify themselves as illegals in order to obtain the permit.[/quote:4k5xvu4b]


First the videos and gun confiscations information was provided as a response to what another poster said and did not say anything about the Real ID.

Second, the illegal alien population under the real id is allowed to be issued a DL under the law. This has been reported in many major newspapers and it is in the Real ID posts I have made before.

Maine sent a similar letter, which DHS rejected on the deadline, citing flaws in its law that allows the state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. The state is one of six that still does not require proof of legal residence for driver's licenses.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/mi ... /89040.htm

Same article
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/s ... tId=297809

Beg all you want but the truth is the truth. Americans have been duped. This ID is part of the North American Union Plans. Canada is pushing for the same ID and Mexico already has it. IN Mexico without your "National ID Card" You are not allowed to bank, buy or rent a home, or even get a job.

The US will be sharing our data with Mexico and Canada.

It doesn't take much to put the pieces together.

If our govt wanted to stop illegal immigration they would have built the fence, enforced our laws, and provided enough man power at the borders.

The facts are also true that DHS m the Pentagon, Choice Point, Universities, Utility companies, DMV's and countless others have been hacked and sensitive data compromised. And our govt wants to share this information world wide. Yeah, that sounds like a winning plan.

jp wrote:

Second, the illegal alien population under the real id is allowed to be issued a DL under the law. This has been reported in many major newspapers and it is in the Real ID posts I have made before.

Posting it before still doesn't make it fact. Furthermore, any newspaper that is reporting that REAL ID authorizes the issuance of a secure driver's license (REAL ID) to illegal aliens is wrong.

Excerpt:

Title II: Improved Security for Driver's Licenses and Personal Identification Cards - (Sec. 202) Prohibits Federal agencies from accepting State issued driver's licenses or identification cards unless such documents are determined by the Secretary to meet minimum security requirements, including the incorporation of specified data, a common machine-readable technology, and certain anti-fraud security features.

Sets forth minimum issuance standards for such documents that require: (1) verification of presented information; (2) evidence that the applicant is lawfully present in the United States; and (3) issuance of temporary driver's licenses or identification cards to persons temporarily present that are valid only for their period of authorized stay (or for one year where the period of stay is indefinite).

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z ... L&summ2=m&

REAL ID (secure indentification card and/or driver's licenses) will not be issued to illegal aliens. Issuing a legal permit for an illegal alien to drive has absolutely nothing to do with the REAL ID Act. Like I said before, individual states can already do that. Heck, not long ago TN. was issuing driving permits to illegals.

Your own example proves my point.

Quote:
Maine sent a similar letter, which DHS rejected on the deadline, citing flaws in its law that allows the state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. The state is one of six that still does not require proof of legal residence for driver's licenses.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/mi ... /89040.htm

Obviously Maine's plan did not meet the requirement set forth under REAL ID and would have given illegals driver's licenses. Their attempt was REJECTED by DHS because it would have issued licenses to illegals.

Seems we're going in circles.

The fact that the illegals cannot get a Real ID still does not mean they cannot issue a drivers' license to an illegal.

You didnt address the sharing of information. Do you want your personal information shared with Mexico, Canada, private corporations who you have not chosen to do business with?

Do you not comprehend the severity of a national id card? Did it work for Russia? Was Hitlers' identification system good for the residents there?

Think about it.

jp wrote:

You didnt address the sharing of information. Do you want your personal information shared with Mexico, Canada, private corporations who you have not chosen to do business with?

I haven't addressed it because it's not a legitimate argument at this time. Please provide me with one unbiased source that claims our personal information will be shared with Mexico, Canada or a private institution. To my knowledge the REAL ID Act does not provide for such, nor is it addressed in the bill that was signed into law. Basically, it's a straw man argument that is being thrown out by many of those opposed to the REAL ID Act.

The fact that the illegals cannot get a Real ID still does not mean they cannot issue a drivers' license to an illegal.

According to the requirments of REAL ID, states are not authorized to issue a secure driver's license (or secure indentification card) to illegal immigrants. All documents presented to the DMV will be verified as authentic.

Please read the following again:

Quote:
Title II: Improved Security for Driver's Licenses and Personal Identification Cards - (Sec. 202) Prohibits Federal agencies from accepting State issued driver's licenses or identification cards unless such documents are determined by the Secretary to meet minimum security requirements, including the incorporation of specified data, a common machine-readable technology, and certain anti-fraud security features.

Sets forth minimum issuance standards for such documents that require: (1) verification of presented information; (2) evidence that the applicant is lawfully present in the United States; and (3) issuance of temporary driver's licenses or identification cards to persons temporarily present that are valid only for their period of authorized stay (or for one year where the period of stay is indefinite).

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z ... L&summ2=m&

There are no allowances made for the issuing of a driver's license to illegal aliens. If states issue a driving permit to illegals they do so at their own peril. The REAL ID act does not demand or encourage states to issue driving permits to illegal aliens.

Organizations I respect, like Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, are urging passage of the SAVE Act, Others, like Tom DeWeese's American Policy Center, are urging it's defeat, because of the REAL ID Act provisions: www.americanpolicy.org/sledgehammer/main.htm

Comments?

From the article:

In the wake of the Oklahoma City bombings and the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, there is a need to set some kind of minimum standards to ensure that driver’s licenses and other forms of government-issued identification cannot be tampered with and used by terrorists.

Yes, this is why we have already passed the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004. What the REAL ID ostensibly hopes to accomplish is already law.

But furthermore, McVeigh, the DC sniper, and several of the 9/11 terrorists had no previous links to terrorism. The Unabomber taught at Berkeley. The Palestinians have demonstrated that they can recruit suicide bombers with no previous record of anti-Israeli activities.

The question is: so how do we ID people with absolutely no ties to illegal behavior without just doing away with any semblance of privacy in this country? Does the government kick down your door every time you buy fertilizer for your twenty acres of farmland?

The REAL ID is NOT going to prevent terrorism or illegal immigration. The government was actually able to discover some of the 9/11 terrorists before they attacked (the Phoenix Memo), but government bureaucracy let them slip through the cracks. Adding more layers of government bureaucracy is hardly going to fix the original problem, which was government bureaucracy.

Originally Posted by MW

Please provide me with one unbiased source that claims our personal information will be shared with Mexico, Canada or a private institution.

Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist and author. Described by The Economist as a "security guru," Schneier is best known as a refreshingly candid and lucid security critic and commentator.

The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity theft easier. Assume that this information will be collected by bars and other businesses, and that it will be resold to companies like ChoicePoint and Acxiom. It actually doesn't matter how well the states and federal government protect the data on driver's licenses, as there will be parallel commercial databases with the same information.

Even worse, the same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect the federal government will require states to do this, with all of the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... al_id.html

Originally Posted by MW

jp wrote:

You didnt address the sharing of information. Do you want your personal information shared with Mexico, Canada, private corporations who you have not chosen to do business with?

I haven't addressed it because it's not a legitimate argument at this time. Please provide me with one unbiased source that claims our personal information will be shared with Mexico, Canada or a private institution. To my knowledge the REAL ID Act does not provide for such, nor is it addressed in the bill that was signed into law. Basically, it's a straw man argument that is being thrown out by many of those opposed to the REAL ID Act.

[quote:152igqy9]The fact that the illegals cannot get a Real ID still does not mean they cannot issue a drivers' license to an illegal.

According to the requirments of REAL ID, states are not authorized to issue a secure driver's license (or secure indentification card) to illegal immigrants. All documents presented to the DMV will be verified as authentic.

Please read the following again:

Quote:
Title II: Improved Security for Driver's Licenses and Personal Identification Cards - (Sec. 202) Prohibits Federal agencies from accepting State issued driver's licenses or identification cards unless such documents are determined by the Secretary to meet minimum security requirements, including the incorporation of specified data, a common machine-readable technology, and certain anti-fraud security features.

Sets forth minimum issuance standards for such documents that require: (1) verification of presented information; (2) evidence that the applicant is lawfully present in the United States; and (3) issuance of temporary driver's licenses or identification cards to persons temporarily present that are valid only for their period of authorized stay (or for one year where the period of stay is indefinite).

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z ... L&summ2=m&

There are no allowances made for the issuing of a driver's license to illegal aliens. If states issue a driving permit to illegals they do so at their own peril. The REAL ID act does not demand or encourage states to issue driving permits to illegal aliens.[/quote:152igqy9]

REAL ID ACT STATES

16 SEC. 203. LINKING OF DATABASES.
17 (a) IN GENERAL.—To be eligible to receive any grant
18 or other type of financial assistance made available under
19 this title, a State shall participate in the interstate com20
pact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as
21 the ‘‘Driver License Agreement’’, in order to provide elec22
tronic access by a State to information contained in the
23 motor vehicle databases of all other States.

[quote]This bill establishes a massive, centrally-coordinated database of highly personal information about American citizens: at a minimum their name, date of birth, place of residence, Social Security number, and physical and possibly other characteristics. [b]What is even more disturbing is that, by mandating that states participate in the “Drivers License Agreement,â€

apropos wrote:

Quote:
The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity theft easier. Assume that this information will be collected by bars and other businesses, and that it will be resold to companies like ChoicePoint and Acxiom. It actually doesn't matter how well the states and federal government protect the data on driver's licenses, as there will be parallel commercial databases with the same information.

Even worse, the same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect the federal government will require states to do this, with all of the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).


http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... al_id.html

This nothing more than opinion and assumption from an obviously biased opponent to REAL ID. Furthermore, there are absolutely no provisions in the law that demand or encourage RFID chips be placed in secure driver's licenses. Actually, Secretary Chertoff has already provided the requirements that are to be met for REAL ID and they don't include RFID chips. If your state decides to utilize RFID technology, that's an issue you should take up with your state because it is not a federal requirement for REAL ID.

jp wrote:

[quote]REAL ID ACT STATES
Quote:
16 SEC. 203. LINKING OF DATABASES.
17 (a) IN GENERAL.—To be eligible to receive any grant
18 or other type of financial assistance made available under
19 this title, a State shall participate in the interstate com20
pact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as
21 the ‘‘Driver License Agreement’’, in order to provide elec22
tronic access by a State to information contained in the
23 motor vehicle databases of all other States.


Quote:
This bill establishes a massive, centrally-coordinated database of highly personal information about American citizens: at a minimum their name, date of birth, place of residence, Social Security number, and physical and possibly other characteristics. What is even more disturbing is that, by mandating that states participate in the “Drivers License Agreement,â€

AAMVA is the one responsible for ensuring compliance. That is not biased. You get the facts and refuse to read them?

The following is from their documents, These are Facts. Please read it for yourself. I am sure you want to make scertain that you are not making conjecture based on someone who has researched and complied the information for all to see.

AAMVA - Comments on DHS Proposed Rulemaking


[quote]Pg. 6 "In June 2005, the federal governments of Canada, the United States and Mexico published a ‘Report to Leaders’ entitled ‘Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America’. It provides general direction on a number of security issues, although it does not specifically mention the use of driver licences as part of any security solution. Under the section headed ‘Securing North America from External Threats’ is the following statement. “We will develop standards for lower-cost secure proof of status and nationality documents to facilitate cross-border travel, and work to achieve optimal production before January 1, 2008.â€