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  1. #11
    BlueHills's Avatar
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    Considering the strange, strange world we live in I think it's prudent to keep an open mind that most anything is possible, but wise to never accept anything as truth without reliable source evidence and critical analysis of that evidence. Anyway, I guess the question I had reading the transcript above is even if you could believe the levee was blown, then why conclude that it was blown to save the French Quarter? Seems that there would be many other equally or more plausible motivations.

  2. #12
    Senior Member BobC's Avatar
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    I do have an open mind. If someone brings me a single shred of evidence that an explosion broke the levies, I will be all ears.

    I find it really sad and frustrating that the cause of fixing our border crisis has been taken over by conspiracy theorists who are paranoid about anything the gov't does. It makes us look crazy and immature. There are some great people in government.

    Anyone who wants to bring down this government had better have a better proposition for replacing it.

  3. #13
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    BobC,

    The "open mind" comment wasn't directed to you or meant to imply that you didn't. I was just an expression of my own philosophy about things. For example, I believe Alex Jones says that there are mass quanities of easily accessible oil available -- being concealed by the oil compainies, I guess (paraphrasing, of course). I'm no expert on oil, so I have to consider that he may be right, but I don't see much corroborating evidence of that and others state we are at or passed "peak oil" -- so I consider his position, but don't necessarily believe it. (He does have a long article on one of the websites on the subject, but I've never gotten very far into the article.)

  4. #14
    Senior Member MopheadBlue's Avatar
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    BlueHills and all,

    See http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-9535.html first posted by Charlesoakisland.

  5. #15
    Senior Member BobC's Avatar
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    I wasn't taking it personally, Blue, and I wasn't aiming what I'm saying at you either. Looking at the bigger picture--I find it very frustrating that the illegal immigration issue, until very recently, was always confined to crazy conspiracy issue websites--sites that deal with UFO's, mind control, satanic cults and all that nonsense. It diminishes us. It makes us look dumb and infantile IMO. People who could potentially join our cause take one look at those sites, see UFOs and satanic cults, and THEY STOP READING.

    When I first heard of the levies breaking, believe me the first thing that crossed my mind was terrorism. In a post 9/11 world you'd have to be a fool not to at least think of that possibility. But that's way different than continuing to push fake or at the very least highly questionable news stories. If an explosion occured, it would have been discovered long before now--it would have been impossible to keep that secret for this long.

    There are enough crazy things going on in the world--we needn't make things up.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC
    I do have an open mind. If someone brings me a single shred of evidence that an explosion broke the levies, I will be all ears.
    First this is a piece of information that was posted, and I will comment with what comes to mind. Also have I ever stated that this is fact? Nope sure haven't, but does that mean that I shouldn't throw ideas into the air and let people "make their" own decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC
    I find it really sad and frustrating that the cause of fixing our border crisis has been taken over by conspiracy theorists who are paranoid about anything the gov't does. It makes us look crazy and immature. There are some great people in government.
    Here is an excerpt from the other post you made:

    I find it very frustrating that the illegal immigration issue, until very recently, was always confined to crazy conspiracy issue websites.

    This contradicts what I have quoted above. Also this hasn’t recently become an issue seen in a "Normal view" in fact it has been going on since the early 90's.
    Not sure if you care or not, but a lot of people strongly agree with comments that I do make. It is our duty as Americans to question our government and to think out side of the box, if no one did we would stay in the same place.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC
    as always confined to crazy conspiracy issue websites--sites that deal with UFO's, mind control, satanic cults and all that nonsense.
    Not sure what sites you visit, but I never ran across UFO, cult etc. sites when visiting illegal emigration sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC
    When I first heard of the levies breaking, believe me the first thing that crossed my mind was terrorism.
    This never crossed my mind, only when articles like this were posted. As far a "pushing" this issue, I am merely commenting, and to think that something like this would "never" be done, that can be debated.

    I could take the comments that you have made personally, but why would I do that? It is fun just to see what people think and to see that I brought emotion out in you, lets me know that I am being heard
    "I can because I will, I will because I can" ME

  7. #17
    Senior Member BobC's Avatar
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    Raki why would you take this personally? And if you have not seen illegal immigration linked to topics like UFO's and satanic cults and other loony right wing stuff, I would suggest you do a little bit of searching the net. Start with the Byte Show, where I first heard Frosty Wooldridge. Georgeann the host has another audiofile where she and her guest say there's a UN satanist plot to cleanse America of hoofed animals!!

  8. #18
    Senior Member BobC's Avatar
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    Well well well.

    Look who's giving credence to the explosion theory! Our beloved Louis Farrakhan! Awesome! He's heard from "credible sources" that there's a crater underneath a levee!!!

    http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/sto ... 21767.html

  9. #19
    tms
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    Mystery Surrounds
    Levee Breaches
    Could A Structural Flaw Be To Blame?

    By John McQuaid
    Staff writer
    9-14-5


    One of the central mysteries emerging in the Hurricane Katrina disaster is why concrete floodwalls in three canals breached during the storm, causing much of the catastrophic flooding, while earthen hurricane levees surrounding the city remained intact.

    It probably will take months to investigate and make a conclusive determination about what happened, according to the Army Corps of Engineers. But two Louisiana State University scientists who have examined the breaches suggest that a structural flaw in the floodwalls might be to blame.

    "Why did we have no hurricane levee failures but five separate places with floodwall failures?" asked Joseph Suhayda, a retired LSU coastal engineer who examined the breaches last week. "That suggests there may be something about floodwalls that makes them more susceptible to failure. Did (the storm) exceed design conditions? What were the conditions? What about the construction?"

    Ivor Van Heerden, who uses computer models to study storm-surge dynamics for the LSU Hurricane Center, has said that fragmentary initial data indicate that Katrina's storm-surge heights in Lake Pontchartrain would not have been high enough to top the canal walls and that a "catastrophic structural failure" occurred in the floodwalls.

    Corps project manager Al Naomi said that the Corps' working theory is that the floodwalls were well-constructed, but once topped they gave way after water scoured their interior sides, wearing away their earth-packed bases. But he said some other problem could have caused the breaches.

    "They could have been overtopped. There could have been some structural failure. They could have been impacted by some type of debris," Naomi said. "I don't think it's right to make some type of judgment now. It's like presuming the reason for a plane crash without recovering the black box."

    Officials long had warned about the danger of levees being topped by high water from a storm surge. Absent topping, floodwalls are supposed to remain intact.

    The floodwalls lining New Orleans canals consist of concrete sections attached to steel sheet pile drilled deep into the earth, fortified by a concrete and earthen base. The sections are joined with a flexible, waterproof substance.

    Floodwalls were breached in the 17th Street Canal, at two places in the London Avenue Canal, and at two places in the Industrial Canal, Suhayda said. Naomi said last week that one of the Industrial Canal breaches likely was caused by a loose barge that broke through it.

    Suhayda said that his inspection of the debris from the 17th Street Canal breach suggests the wall simply gave way. "It looks to have been laterally pushed, not scoured in back with dirt being removed in pieces," he said. "You can see levee material, some distance pushed inside the floodwall area, like a bulldozer pushed it."

    He suggested that because the walls failed in a few spots, the flaw may not be in the design but in the construction or materials.

    "Those sections in the rest of the wall should have been subjected to the same forces as that section that failed," he said. "Why did one side fail, not the other side?"

    Drainage canals typically are lined with floodwalls instead of the wider earthen levees that protect the lakefront because of a lack of space, engineers say.

    "It's a right-of-way issue," Naomi said. "Usually, there are homes right up against the canal. You have to relocate five miles of homes (to build a levee), or you can build a floodwall."

    Constructing a more expensive earthen levee also would require building farther out into the canal itself, reducing the size of the canal - and the volume of water it could handle.

    Naomi said that an earthen levee also could have been breached if the surge had pushed water over the top. "A levee failure might be more gradual than with a floodwall," he said. "It means you may have flooded a little slower."

    The central question for engineers investigating the breaches will be whether the floodwalls were topped - and that's still unclear.

    The levee system, floodwalls included, is designed to protect against an average storm surge of 11.5 feet above sea level. The Corps adds several more feet of "freeboard" to account for waves and other dynamics.

    Naomi said the Industrial Canal floodwalls were topped by water coming in from the east. But scientists don't yet know exactly whether Katrina's Lake Pontchartrain surge was high enough to go over the wall in the two other canals.

    Many storm surge gauges stopped functioning during the storm, LSU climatologist Barry Keim, though initial data point to a mi-lake height of eight or nine feet. Heights typically are higher at the Lakefront area because wind pushes water higher against the levees.

    Suhayda said the debris line on the lakefront levee adjacent to the canal was "several feet" below the top. The levees are 17 or 18 feet high in that area. The canal levees, however, average only 14 feet. Storm surges have waves and other dynamics that push water still higher than the average height.

    "There are big implications for as little as a one-foot change in elevation" of the storm surge, Suhayda said.

    If the water did not top the levees, the breaches could prove more mysterious. Typically, the pounding of wave action would be the most likely way to cause a breach, scientists say. But there isn't much wave action in canals.

    "Waves constantly breaking on the structure start to erode it and make it become unstable," said LSU coastal geologist Greg Stone, who studies storm-surge dynamics. "But I don't think that was a major factor in the canals. You just don't have the (open area) to allow wave growth to occur."

    http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlo~
    gs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_13.html#079207
    "The defense of a nation begins at it's borders" Tancredo

  10. #20
    tms
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    Levee 'Explosives Residue'
    Story Remains Unconfirmed
    By Jim Moore
    9-11-5



    Note - This story below is racing around the net and we present it *only* as something to be so noted. 'Well placed sources' and unnamed sources 'speaking on conditions of anonymity' have essentially no credibility from a journalistic standpoint. Unless one of the principals steps out of the shadows and comes forward with proof of the allegations below, this story must be considered as just another internet rumor.

    IF, in fact, the levee was initially breached with an explosive device, it would have been a very easy task to accomplish. One underwater demolition expert (a former Navy SEAL, for example) working undercover of night, or of the passing hurricane, could have slipped in and out of the area, unseen, in a matter of minutes. Interesting to contemplate how just one person could have triggered a $100 billion dollar disaster and mass murder. But such are the times in which we live. -ed


    Explosive Residue Found On Failed Levee Debris
    Ruptured New Orleans Levee Had Held Failing


    MOD EDIT
    "The defense of a nation begins at it's borders" Tancredo

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