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  1. #1
    Senior Member JohnB2012's Avatar
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    Jul 2005
    Raleigh, NC

    Someone forgot to tell this group about the flag issue!

    May 1st group from Chicago.

  2. #2
    Senior Member MopheadBlue's Avatar
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    May 2005
    They're just showing more defiance!

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    Apr 2006
    They respect nothing American.

  4. #4
    kev is offline

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    East Texas


    If you wave another countries flag, you should go back to that country. Have enough enough respect for this nation to at least wave its flag.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    You have to wonder where all of these full sized flags are coming from?? I wish I would have invested in a flag making company a couple of months aga
    <div>"You know your country is dying when you have to make a distinction between what is moral and ethical, and what is legal." -- John De Armond</div>

  6. #6
    Senior Member patbrunz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    "We have room for but one flag in this country . . ." -Theodore Roosevelt

    If only he were our President now! He'd teach 'em a lesson! And our border would be secure, too!
    All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke

  7. #7
    mad is offline
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    May 2006

    My $0.02 on the issue. (Doesn't the picture of our flag being flown upside down BELOW the Mexican flag just piss you off???????

    Today’s show of force by the “illegal immigrants” and their supporters are seen as a threat or intimidation by those of us who are 6th or more generation Americans. I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t ignite a huge backlash like hasn’t been seen in decades. Continue reading for some insights.

    The U.S., the most prosperous and powerful economic superpower in the world shares a 3,000 mile border with a 3rd world country. The U.S. cannot provide jobs for every unhappy citizen from Mexico, Central America and poor areas of South America. If we make it easy for the poor to come to the U.S. and enjoy benefits while the workers send their wages back home, how does that help the U.S. economy to remain strong? How is that fair for the 230 million American’s who are mostly “working class Joe’s” just making it from paycheck to paycheck?

    “Let's take a look at some of the many benefits that illegal aliens have blessed our great country with: Street gangs, graffiti, drug smuggling, skyrocketing healthcare, depreciation of property value, illiteracy.”

    Below is a study done in 1996. The illegal immigration since then has roughly doubled. Can you report these?

    The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration ... entersf134

    Illegal alien workers may increase profits for employers, but they are costly to the American taxpayer. Most illegal aliens have low educational attainment, few skills, and they work for low wages, often in the underground economy where they pay no taxes on their earnings. Since about three million illegal aliens gained legal status in the amnesty of 1986, the flow of illegal immigration has increased, and today that population is estimated at 9-11 million illegal alien residents in the country. The former Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that the illegal alien population was increasing by about half a million aliens per year in 2000.

    The Huddle Study
    Because the number of illegal aliens can only be estimated, similarly the fiscal cost (government budget outlays) for those aliens can only be estimated. Dr. Donald Huddle, a Rice University economics professor, published a systematic analysis of those costs as of 1996 (see table below). The study also estimated the tax payments of those same aliens.

    At that time, the illegal alien population was estimated to be about five million persons. The estimated fiscal cost of those illegal aliens to the federal, state and local governments was about $33 billion. This impact was partially offset by an estimated $12.6 billion in taxes paid to the federal, state and local governments, resulting in a net cost to the American taxpayer of about $20 billion every year. This estimate did not include indirect costs that result from unemployment payments to Americans who lost their jobs to illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages. Nor did it include lost tax collections from those American workers who became unemployed. The study estimated those indirect costs from illegal immigration at an additional $4.3 billion annually.

    During the years since that estimate, the illegal alien population is estimated to have roughly doubled, so the estimated fiscal costs also will have at least doubled. Furthermore, the passage of time is accompanied by inflation in the costs of services, e.g., school budgets continue to climb. Therefore, what was estimated to be a cost to the American taxpayer of $33 billion in 1996 today would be at least $70 billion. Similarly, tax collections would have increased — sales taxes at least — so that the net expense to the taxpayer from illegal immigration would currently be at least $45 billion. The indirect fiscal costs would have also increased, especially during a period of already high unemployment, to perhaps and additional $10 billion annually.

    1996 Costs Table from the Huddle Study 1


    Public Education K-12

    Public Higher Education

    ESL and Bilingual Education

    Food Stamps



    Social Security

    Earned Income Tax Credit


    Medicare A and B

    Criminal Justice and Corrections

    Local Government

    Other Programs

    Total Costs

    Less Taxes Paid

    Net Costs of Direct Services

    Displacement Costs

    All Net Costs

    Other More Recent Estimates
    Other estimates have been done on components of the cost of illegal immigration. For example, FAIR estimated in 2003 that the cost of K-12 education for illegal alien children was at least $7.4 billion annually (see Breaking the Piggybank). This would be less than double the about $5.9 billion estimate above, but would be of the same order of magnitude. FAIR’s 2004 report on the medical expenses incurred because of illegal immigration (see The Sinking Lifeboat) shows uncompensated costs in excess of one billion dollars.

    The cost of incarceration of illegal aliens in state prisons has also risen rapidly. In fiscal year ’02, the Department of Justice’s State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) distributed $550 million to the states to help defray their expenses, but this was estimated to cover only about one fifth of their outlays. Between FY'99 and FY'02, alien detention increased by 45 percent (from about 69,300 inmate years to over 100,300 inmate years), and that trend is continuing. These expenses do not include the costs of illegal aliens incarcerated in federal prisons, public safety expenditures, detention pending trial, expenses of trial proceedings, interpretation, public defenders, or the incarceration expenses of immigrants for minor offenses that do not meet the standards of the SCAPP reimbursement program. Therefore, it is clear that outlays for Criminal Justice and Corrections costs is today much greater than double the 1996 estimate.

    While the cost of outlays for illegal aliens may be shifted by legislation among the levels of government and the private sector, the fact remains that illegal immigration creates an enormous fiscal burden on America and its citizens — a burden that Congress has levied upon us through short-sighted and haphazard immigration policy and succeeding administrations have aggravated by spotty enforcement of the law.

    A Call for Action
    Americans should demand that Congress and the administration work together to establish control over our borders and the interior of the country so that we have the assurance that aliens, whether immigrants or visitors, are legally present in the country. That objective is of vital importance for the sake of national security as well as for the impact on our tax bills.


    The Net National Costs of Immigration: Fiscal Effects of Welfare Restorations to Legal Immigrants, Donald Huddle, Rice University, 1997.

    “Many of us had ancestors that passed through Ellis Island. This was not just a rest stop on the way to the next exit. Ellis Island was an immigrant screening center. America has always retained the right to screen entrants, separate the bad from the good, and deport those deemed harmful. Uncontrolled immigration is ludicrous.”

    Here is a quote I lifted from a soldier’s website-blog about the debate:

    “The inscription on the Statue of Liberty Enlightening the World reads: ""Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door." Remember, sir that the illegal’s that invade our borders do not come here to "breathe free". They are not oppressed by their government. They come here for purely economic reasons: because the price of a day's labor is higher in the United States than it is in Mexico. However, the cost of living in Mexico is also much lower than the cost of living in the United States. Illegal aliens are not "homeless or tempest-tossed", not by a long shot. But if you want the inscription to apply to them...then I understand. I'll make you a deal: the Statue of Liberty Enlightening the World stands tall on Ellis Island, in New York Harbor. She lifts her "lamp beside the golden door." If an illegal immigrant can swim to Ellis Island (the Golden Door) from Mexico; without illegally crossing a border, …. prior to setting foot on Ellis Island then I'll let them in.” (where they can be screened).

    The U.S. route to permanent green cards may seem hard but compared to the same legal working status in Mexico ours is very easy. Here are the facts:

    I “Received the following from (Tom O'Malley) who was a Director with SW BELL in Mexico City. You remember I spent five years working in Mexico.

    I worked under a tourist Visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval

    During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work.

    To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals (not copies) of my:

    1. Birth certificate for Barbara and me.

    2. Marriage certificate.

    3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.

    4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.

    5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.

    6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indication I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good


    7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican Citizen with my skills and why my skills were important

    to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on Earth" letter. It was fun to write.

    All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.

    Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican Attorney touring Mexican Government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location and we remember at least four locations we instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the Governments actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo Texas. This meant we had rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.

    We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

    We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the Licensing agency to come to our Headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

    We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. It was about twenty legal size pages annually.

    The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying more fees.

    Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

    It was a real adventure and If any of our Senators or Congressman went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico..

    The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White house or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy.

    These protests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

    Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on illegal immigrants.”
    "The founder's version: In Article I, Sect. 8, only Congress has the power to declare war, "War Powers Act" ...unless it is in the absolute bona fide defense of this country's borders."

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