Thread: FairTax and Trade

Originally Posted by Judy

That is false. If people want to call a rebate an entitlement, I really could care less. But it is false to say that a monthly entitlement check is sent to every household in America. It is only sent to those who are US citizens and Legal Residents and choose to sign up for it.

Yes, Judy, the family consumption allowance is an entitlement for every qualified family.



From the actual Bill:

SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.

`Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of--

`(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and

`(2) the monthly poverty level.


`SEC. 302. QUALIFIED FAMILY.

`(a) General Rule- For purposes of this chapter, the term `qualified family' shall mean 1 or more family members sharing a common residence. All family members sharing a common residence shall be considered as part of 1 qualified family.


Now that we have confirmed the alleged fairtax creates an entitlement, why do you persist in avoiding a discussion of how the family consumption allowance helps to make poor working people dependent upon government for a monthly rationed supply of tax free necessities of life?

Is it not true this monthly check allows taxpayers, and especially the poor, to purchase a rationed supply of tax free necessities, which in turn makes voters with limited economic means, dependent upon the federal government for a portion of their monthly economic needs? Were we not warned in the Federalist Papers that control over a man’s subsistence amounts to a power over his will?

And tell us, Judy, under the alleged fairtax and its family consumption entitlement, how many more “poor working people” would have a vested interest in voting for progressives, socialists and communists during election time who would promise to work to increase the family consumption entitlement? Is this not how Fifth Column members of Congress stay in power in our nation’s poorest voting districts ____ by offering their constituency free government cheese?

Tell me Judy, why are you so eager to create another entitlement, which would help our Fifth Column member in Congress to remain in power by promising our nation’s poor during each election time to alter the fairtax and enlarge the family consumption entitlement?


JWK

Originally Posted by jtdc

Then there is John who thinks this country is the property of the Founders, and what they set up should be carved in stone.

I never stated anything which is in harmony with what you state above. And I have repeatedly pointed out our wise founding fathers provided Article V to allow the people to alter our constitution to accommodate changing times.


Why are you misrepresenting my views?

JWK

Tell us Johnwk, why do you lie on our own lies? You didn't say "qualified" in your first post, you didn't say "eligible" in your first post, you didn't say "citizen" or "legal resident" in your first post, you didn't say "family" in your first post and you didn't say "and chooses to sign up for it" in your first post. These are very important omissions in your lie to hide the truth about the FairTax Rebate.

The FairTax Rebate doesn't benefit the poor any more than it benefits anyone else. Everyone who is a US citizen, legal resident, with a valid social security number, and chooses to sign up for the Rebate benefits the same, it's x amount for an adult and y amount for a child.

Furthermore, the FairTax Rebate applies to all citizens and legal residents with a Social Security number, who sign up for it, whether they're poor or rich, working or not working. So no, I don't see how working poor or anyone else becomes dependent on the Rebate. They're simply receiving a FairTax rebate of what they will have spent on their necessities. And it won't be a check for most people, it will be a Smart Card credit or a direct deposit for most people.

Why wouldn't Republicans work to increase the Rebate? The higher the Rebate, the lower the amount of tax paid. Sounds Republican to me. I would prefer to eliminate the Rebate altogether, and lower the rate to 20% from the proposed 23% or earmark the 3% to paying down the national debt and then when it's paid off, they can lower the rate. Time to pay the piper.

FAIRTAX NOW!! SAVE OUR NATION!!

Originally Posted by johnwk

I never stated anything which is in harmony with what you state above.

Of course not!

Originally Posted by johnwk

And I have repeatedly pointed out our wise founding fathers provided Article V to allow the people to alter our constitution to accommodate changing times.

Hence the Amendments which have changed many of the original mandates. But you consistently argued that we should go back to how our tax system was originally set up. The country and the world have changed much since then.

For instance, they gave Congress exclusive power to declare war. That worked when it took a month by boat for an enemy to arrive here. And likewise for communication between the enemy government and the troops who were here. But today we have instant communication around the world, and missiles capable of hitting us within hours. So Congress authorized the President the power to wage war for a short period of time as it might take Congress a month to agree on a defense or retaliation strategy.

In those days, if someone got sick they died. Today, because we have medicine to help most people, we have the new problem of who we should help.

Originally Posted by johnwk

Why are you misrepresenting my views?

I am not!

Originally Posted by Judy

The FairTax Rebate doesn't benefit the poor any more than it benefits anyone else.

Of course it does! Why do you lie about that? A "rebate" of what amounts to "crumbs" to Nancy Pelosi, theoretically can sustain a poor family. That amount is meaningless to the rich. The tax portion will hit the rich more than the poor, but again, is a smaller percentage of their disposable income.

Originally Posted by Judy

Everyone who is a US citizen, legal resident, with a valid social security number, and chooses to sign up for the Rebate benefits the same, it's x amount for an adult and y amount for a child.

That is potentially every citizen and every legal alien.

Originally Posted by Judy

So no, I don't see how working poor or anyone else becomes dependent on the Rebate.

Apparently you are also blind to the fact that many poor are solely dependent on Welfare.

Originally Posted by Judy

They're simply receiving a FairTax rebate of what they will have spent on their necessities.

Or drugs!

Originally Posted by Judy

And it won't be a check for most people, it will be a Smart Card credit or a direct deposit for most people.

Oh, that changes everything. It's not like they are getting money. Oh wait, it is exactly the same thing!

Originally Posted by Judy

Why wouldn't Republicans work to increase the Rebate? The higher the Rebate, the lower the amount of tax paid.

Are you sure you aren't a Democrat? Depending on how many are collecting this monthly Rebate, that money doesn't come from nowhere. We either do what Democratic lawmakers have been doing, printing more paper bills (counterfeit) than what reserves back those dollars, so a dollar becomes worth less (inflation), or raise the tax to cover that cost, much like all the entitlements we currently have require us to raise taxes to cover them.

Originally Posted by Judy

I would prefer to eliminate the Rebate altogether, and lower the rate to 20% from the proposed 23% or earmark the 3% to paying down the national debt and then when it's paid off, they can lower the rate. Time to pay the piper.

That Rebate is the biggest part that sticks in my craw. The problem is we currently can track the incomes and generally know who is in poverty. And rightly or wrongly, we subsidize the needy. If we change over to this supposedly FairTax, without the Rebate, they would be left to starve. That fate is what we leave to foreigners where fate has born them into a country where they do starve. By going away from income base tax accounting, we lose the ability to measure who is needy. We become even more dependent on honesty. If we Rebate everybody, we must raise the tax rate. But with the tax rate higher, then there is the argument that the cost of living is higher, so we need to raise the rebate (to be fair). But that would mean we need another round of tax raises to cover that cost, which again raises the cost of living. So we enter an endless loop of more inflation unless someone eats their losses and holds the line, Not likely!

Sigh. The FairTax has nothing to do with welfare programs. All the welfare programs we have remain unchanged by the FairTax. The Rebate does the same thing under the FairTax system that the Standard Deduction and Personal and Dependent Deductions do under the income tax.

The FairTax Rebate has nothing to do with food stamps or WIC or TANF or Medicaid or free school lunch or any other poverty program.

The FairTax Rebate just exempts a certain amount of eligible consumer spending from the FairTax for the same reason we have Standard, Personal and Dependent Deductions to exempt a certain amount of income from the income tax for "necessities of life".

The FairTax Rebate is actually much more fair, because not everyone earns, but everyone spends.

Under the present income tax system, you pay twice, you pay at the office when they withhold income tax from your paychecks or when you send in quarterly estimated income tax as a business, and then you pay again when you spend your money on goods and services, because all prices already include every dime of income tax paid by every individual and business in the country to the federal government.

Paying twice for the same thing under the present evil income tax system .... well, that's not only stupid, that is actually inflationary.

The FairTax corrects that double taxation. Under the FairTax, consumers only pay when they choose to buy or spend on new goods and services, they only pay once at the final point of retail sale, not twice as they do now once at the office and again at the store, and if they want to sign up for it, they can sign up for the Rebate to get some of it back so they aren't paying FairTax on "necessities of life".

From what I've seen so far, things are sticking in your craw for completely irrational and uninformed reasons.

Originally Posted by Judy

Tell us Johnwk, why do you lie on our own lies? You didn't say "qualified" in your first post, ....

In my post concerning the family consumption allowance I wrote:

The alleged FairTax, if adopted, would also put every American household on the public dole with the fairtax’s family consumption allowance, which would then allow our communists, socialists and progressives in Congress to bribe an overwhelming segment of our nation’s population with a higher family consumption allowance during every election.

After you challenged the comment, I then used specific language by writing: Yes. The family consumption allowance is an entitlement to every qualified family and went on to lay out the consequences of creating a new entitlement ___ consequences which you do not seem to want to discuss even though one of the consequences is the family consumption entitlement creates a massive voting block dependent upon a monthly government check for its subsistence.

Is it not true this monthly check allows taxpayers, and especially the poor, to purchase a rationed supply of tax free necessities, which in turn makes voters with limited economic means, dependent upon the federal government for a portion of their monthly economic needs? Were we not warned in the Federalist Papers that control over a man’s subsistence amounts to a power over his will?

And tell us, Judy, under the alleged fairtax and its family consumption entitlement, how many more “poor working people” would have a vested interest in voting for progressives, socialists and communists during election time who would promise to work to increase the family consumption entitlement? Is this not how Fifth Column members of Congress stay in power in our nation’s poorest voting districts ____ by offering their constituency free government cheese?

Tell me Judy, why are you so eager to create another entitlement, which would help our Fifth Column member in Congress to remain in power by promising our nation’s poor during each election time to alter the fairtax and enlarge the family consumption entitlement?


JWK

There is no better way to weaken, destroy and subjugate a prosperous and freedom loving country than by importing the world’s poverty stricken populations into that country.

I'm a little confused by your irrationality, Johnwk. You've posted here for years about the evil of taxing "necessities of life" ... you quote the Founders, Hamilton, and the Federalist Papers on this subject, yet now you are calling your own position communism by opposing a Rebate that exempts "necessities of life" from federal taxation under the FairTax. You've made a fatal Left Turn and stepped in your own Quicksand. Glub! Glub!

Farewell, ole friend!

Originally Posted by Judy

I'm a little confused by your irrationality, Johnwk. You've posted here for years about the evil of taxing "necessities of life" ... you quote the Founders, Hamilton, and the Federalist Papers on this subject, yet now you are calling your own position communism by opposing a Rebate that exempts "necessities of life" from federal taxation under the FairTax. You've made a fatal Left Turn and stepped in your own Quicksand. Glub! Glub!

Farewell, ole friend!

Well, now you have decided to post insults and a misrepresentation of my views rather than discuss the consequences of the family consumption allowance, one of which is, it creates a massive voting block dependent upon government for a monthly subsistence check.


I also noticed you indicate the "Rebate that exempts "necessities of life" from federal taxation under the FairTax." That is not entirely true, Judy.

Under the alleged fairtax, a monthly check is sent to every qualified household which may be used by the household as it pleases. The necessities of life are not exempt from the alleged "fairtax". By contrast, our founders intended that the necessities of life would not be taxed.

Why must you make stuff up to support the alleged fairtax?

JWK



If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon the federal government for its subsistence, we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Our Fifth Column’s long term strategy ___ a plan to establish a federal plantation that confiscates and then redistributes the bread which labor, business and investors have worked to produce