Thread: FairTax and Trade

Why do you think America's families are more dependent upon a "federal government check" rebating FairTaxes on necessities than a "federal government check" refunding income taxes on necessities and other stuff to boot that they get now? I do not know a soul who would ever be dependent on a sales tax rebate "check" from any taxing authority.

You need to get out more and make some new friends. Why don't you discuss it with your customers, tell them how stupid and Marxist they are down deep in their souls which is why you think they can't be trusted to receive a sales tax rebate from the federal government if they pass the FairTax to set them free from all federal income taxes they're enslaved to now and see how that goes over.

Marxists didn't develop the FairTax, Republicans did. Marxist DemoQuacks developed the income tax the FairTax gets rid of.

The Marxist "game plan" is the income tax plantation, the one I and many other wise Americans want to bust with the FairTax.

Johnwk, you would prefer to keep the income tax than fill out a simple 3 line sales tax form once a month under the FairTax. That's sick and very selfish. Do you have any idea how many monthly sales tax forms you and "Mary" could have filled out for your business in the time you've spent writing posts whining about it? Thousands.

And John, the next time you run across an American who you think can "subsist" on a $226 a month FairTax Rebate "federal government check", you should help them, not try to steal their "check". After all, if they spend it, it's only worth $174 after tax.

Originally Posted by johnwk

But Judy, I explained the consequences of creating a massive voting block which is dependent upon government cheese. Why did you, as is usually the case, obfuscate, misdirect and intentionally avoid addressing the consequences of creating a massive voting block dependent upon government cheese?


Were we not warned in the Federalist Papers that?

A POWER OVER A MAN's SUBSISTENCE AMOUNTS TO A POWER OVER HIS WILL ____ Hamilton, No. 79 Federalist Papers


Why do you want to take a page out of the communists,socialists and progressive leadership’s play book which helps to keep them in power by offering government cheese which makes poor people dependent upon government for their subsistence, and encourages them to vote for those who promise to keep government’s free cheese wagon coming their way and also would promise to enlarge the ”family consumption allowance” if they are elected and/or re-elected?


JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation which confiscates and then redistributes the bread which America’s labor and businesses have produced.

Originally Posted by Judy

Why do you think America's families are more dependent upon a "federal government check" rebating FairTaxes on necessities than a "federal government check" refunding income taxes on necessities and other stuff to boot that they get now? I do not know a soul who would ever be dependent on a sales tax rebate "check" from any taxing authority.

You need to get out more and make some new friends. Why don't you discuss it with your customers, tell them how stupid and Marxist they are down deep in their souls which is why you think they can't be trusted to receive a sales tax rebate from the federal government if they pass the FairTax to set them free from all federal income taxes they're enslaved to now and see how that goes over.

Marxists didn't develop the FairTax, Republicans did. Marxist DemoQuacks developed the income tax the FairTax gets rid of.

The Marxist "game plan" is the income tax plantation, the one I and many other wise Americans want to bust with the FairTax.

Johnwk, I hate to say this, but it has to be said at this point, you're a Wack-O-Doodle when it comes to taxes. You would prefer to keep the income tax than fill out a simple 3 line sales tax form once a month under the FairTax. That's sick and very selfish. Do you have any idea how many monthly sales tax forms you and "Mary" could have filled out for your business in the time you've spent writing posts whining about it? Thousands.

And John, the next time you run across an American who you think can "subsist" on a $226 a month FairTax Rebate "federal government check", you should help them, not try to steal their "check". After all, if they spend it, it's only worth $174 after tax.

God help you insane people.

Judy, in reference to your name-calling "Wack-O-Doodle", and lie that I "prefer to keep the income tax", I am the one supporting the following 32 words to be added to our Constitution which is found in the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment:

“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

Tell us, Judy, under the alleged fairtax, can Congress still lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other incomes?

JWK

Originally Posted by Judy

Marxists didn't develop the FairTax, Republicans did. Marxist DemoQuacks developed the income tax the FairTax gets rid of.

Fifth Column Republicans developed the alleged fairtax, just like Fifth Column Democrats got the 16th Amendment added to our Constitution. Keep in mind those who developed the alleged fair tax made sure it keeps alive Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other incomes . . . it does not get rid of this kind of tax as you allege.

JWK

Yeah, what a joke. There is no plan to replace the revenue, John, therefore you have bankrupted the US government, shut it down. Your "32 words" ban not only income tax, but tariffs, sales taxes and excise taxes, the only sources of tax revenue for our government. Way to go John!! Hoorah for you!! You weren't the first man on the moon, but you were the first man to figure out how to end the United States in 32 words.

You honestly think Americans are going to do that? Let me be the upteenth thousand person to tell you, Americans will never do that. We love our country, we don't think people who get a refund check from the IRS or a FairTax Rebate are "Marxists" looking for "bribes" for our votes.

When you fight the FairTax, it just means one thing, you prefer the income tax.

Originally Posted by Judy

Your "32 words" ban not only income tax, but tariffs, sales taxes and excise taxes, the only sources of tax revenue for our government.

So, once again you choose to post an outright lie.


Let us take a look at the wisdom and brilliance of our Founder's original tax plan which is proposed as follows.


The Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment


“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.


NOTE: these words would return us to our founding father’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as they intended it to operate! They would also end the failed experiment with allowing Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from lawfully earned "incomes" which now oppresses America‘s economic engine and robs the bread which working people have earned when selling their labor!


"SECTION 2. Congress ought not raise money by borrowing, but when the money arising from imposts duties and excise taxes are insufficient to meet the public exigencies, and Congress has raised money by borrowing during the course of a fiscal year, Congress shall then lay a direct tax at the beginning of the next fiscal year for an amount sufficient to extinguish the preceding fiscal year's deficit, and apply the revenue so raised to extinguishing said deficit."


NOTE: Congress is to raise its primary revenue from imposts and duties, [taxes at our water’s edge], and may also lay miscellaneous internal excise taxes on specifically chosen articles of consumption. But if Congress borrows and spends more than is brought in from imposts, duties and miscellaneous excise taxes during the course of a fiscal year, then, and only then, is the apportioned tax to be laid.


"SECTION 3. When Congress is required to lay a direct tax in accordance with Section 1 of this Article, the Secretary of the United States Treasury shall, in a timely manner, calculate each State's apportioned share of the total sum being raised by dividing its total population size by the total population of the united states and multiplying that figure by the total being raised by Congress, and then provide the various State Congressional Delegations with a Bill notifying their State’s Executive and Legislature of its share of the total tax being collected and a final date by which said tax shall be paid into the United States Treasury."


NOTE: our founder’s fair share formula to extinguish an annual deficit would be:


States’ population

---------------------------- X SUM TO BE RAISED = STATE’S FAIR SHARE

Total U.S. Population


The above formula, as intended by our founding fathers, is to insure that those states who contribute the lion’s share of the tax are guaranteed a representation in Congress proportionately equal to their contribution, i.e., representation with a proportional financial obligation!


Note also that each State’s number or Representatives, under our Constitution is determined by the rule of apportionment:


State`s Pop.
------------------- X House size (435) = State`s No. of Representatives
U.S. Pop.


"SECTION 4. Each State shall be free to assume and pay its quota of the direct tax into the United States Treasury by a final date set by Congress, but if any State shall refuse or neglect to pay its quota, then Congress shall send forth its officers to assess and levy such State's proportion against the real property within the State with interest thereon at the rate of ((?)) per cent per annum, and against the individual owners of the taxable property. Provision shall be made for a 15% discount for those States paying their share by ((?))of the fiscal year in which the tax is laid, and a 10% discount for States paying by the final date set by Congress, such discount being to defray the States' cost of collection."


NOTE: This section respects the Tenth Amendment and allows each state to raise its share in its own chosen way in a time period set by Congress, but also allows the federal government to enter a state and collect the tax if a state is delinquent in meeting its obligation.


"SECTION 5. This Amendment to the Constitution, when ratified by the required number of States, shall take effect no later than (?) years after the required number of States have ratified it.


JWK


“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

Originally Posted by johnwk

Fifth Column Republicans developed the alleged fairtax, just like Fifth Column Democrats got the 16th Amendment added to our Constitution. Keep in mind those who developed the alleged fair tax made sure it keeps alive Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other incomes . . . it does not get rid of this kind of tax as you allege.

JWK

If the FairTax is what you get from people working for our enemies, then ... well, you know the old saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Yes it does get rid of the income tax, all of it, 100%. It does not repeal the 16th Amendment, which is what you're talking about, but that will be done after the FairTax legislation passes with a separate legislation for an amendment to the Constitution for the states to ratify. Tthe 16th Amendment doesn't have to be repealed to get rid of the income tax. The income tax is created by laws, not the 16th Amendment. The 16th Amendment only allows for it, it doesn't create it or impose it.

Originally Posted by johnwk

So, once again you choose to post an outright lie.


Let us take a look at the wisdom and brilliance of our Founder's original tax plan which is proposed as follows.


The Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment


“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.


NOTE: these words would return us to our founding father’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as they intended it to operate! They would also end the failed experiment with allowing Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from lawfully earned "incomes" which now oppresses America‘s economic engine and robs the bread which working people have earned when selling their labor!


"SECTION 2. Congress ought not raise money by borrowing, but when the money arising from imposts duties and excise taxes are insufficient to meet the public exigencies, and Congress has raised money by borrowing during the course of a fiscal year, Congress shall then lay a direct tax at the beginning of the next fiscal year for an amount sufficient to extinguish the preceding fiscal year's deficit, and apply the revenue so raised to extinguishing said deficit."


NOTE: Congress is to raise its primary revenue from imposts and duties, [taxes at our water’s edge], and may also lay miscellaneous internal excise taxes on specifically chosen articles of consumption. But if Congress borrows and spends more than is brought in from imposts, duties and miscellaneous excise taxes during the course of a fiscal year, then, and only then, is the apportioned tax to be laid.


"SECTION 3. When Congress is required to lay a direct tax in accordance with Section 1 of this Article, the Secretary of the United States Treasury shall, in a timely manner, calculate each State's apportioned share of the total sum being raised by dividing its total population size by the total population of the united states and multiplying that figure by the total being raised by Congress, and then provide the various State Congressional Delegations with a Bill notifying their State’s Executive and Legislature of its share of the total tax being collected and a final date by which said tax shall be paid into the United States Treasury."


NOTE: our founder’s fair share formula to extinguish an annual deficit would be:


States’ population

---------------------------- X SUM TO BE RAISED = STATE’S FAIR SHARE

Total U.S. Population


The above formula, as intended by our founding fathers, is to insure that those states who contribute the lion’s share of the tax are guaranteed a representation in Congress proportionately equal to their contribution, i.e., representation with a proportional financial obligation!


Note also that each State’s number or Representatives, under our Constitution is determined by the rule of apportionment:


State`s Pop.
------------------- X House size (435) = State`s No. of Representatives
U.S. Pop.


"SECTION 4. Each State shall be free to assume and pay its quota of the direct tax into the United States Treasury by a final date set by Congress, but if any State shall refuse or neglect to pay its quota, then Congress shall send forth its officers to assess and levy such State's proportion against the real property within the State with interest thereon at the rate of ((?)) per cent per annum, and against the individual owners of the taxable property. Provision shall be made for a 15% discount for those States paying their share by ((?))of the fiscal year in which the tax is laid, and a 10% discount for States paying by the final date set by Congress, such discount being to defray the States' cost of collection."


NOTE: This section respects the Tenth Amendment and allows each state to raise its share in its own chosen way in a time period set by Congress, but also allows the federal government to enter a state and collect the tax if a state is delinquent in meeting its obligation.


"SECTION 5. This Amendment to the Constitution, when ratified by the required number of States, shall take effect no later than (?) years after the required number of States have ratified it.


JWK


“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

It is not brilliant, it's ridiculous and very dangerous, which is why not once in the history of our country has that provision ever been used in our little Republic to cover even 1 dime of "shortfall" nor will it ever be. Any possible hope of ever using that provision for anything died the day the Constitution was Amended so the people of our states elect our Senators direct, instead of allowing them chosen by state legislatures. Amendment 17. Passed Congress in 1912, ratified in 1913.

Judy wrote (excerpt):

When you fight the FairTax, it just means one thing, you prefer the income tax.

No, not at all. Making false statements doe not help to make your argument credible. There are other alternatives that some folks may support. A few that come to mind are the Flat Tax, Value Added Tax (VAT), keep current income-based system but make it less complex, or retaining the current income-based tax system and supplementing it with a consumption tax. And of course there's the crowd that would just like to immediately repeal the current system and then work on a better plan. So no, being against the unfair tax plan does not mean you prefer the current income-based tax system as it stands!

It does not repeal the 16th Amendment, which is what you're talking about, but that will be done after the FairTax legislation passes with a separate legislation for an amendment to the Constitution for the states to ratify.

No, there is no guarantee that will happen! Most forward thinking people know how risky it would be to put the cart before the horse when dealing with our U.S. Congress. Furthermore, ratifying such an amendment with 3/4 of the states approval would not be guaranteed either. Nobody wants to be saddled with both, a income tax and national retail sales tax. And that could happen without the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

I didn't say "as it stands." I said prefer the income tax. And your posts proves me right, 100%.

Nobody wants to be saddled with both, a income tax and national retail sales tax. And that could happen without the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

But wait, you just said there are people who prefer that.

or retaining the current income-based tax system and supplementing it with a consumption tax.

The FairTax is a consumption tax. Consumption tax = retail sales tax.

So, if you oppose the FairTax, you prefer the income tax.

Originally Posted by Judy

I didn't say "as it stands." I said prefer the income tax. And your posts proves me right, 100%.

Obviously you were talking about the current system without modification. So no, I didn't prove you right at all. I proved you wrong. Not supporting the unfair tax does not mean you necessarily support the current tax system. By the way, the Value Added Tax (VAT) is a consumption based tax.