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  1. #1
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    HERE WE GO - Army Times: Army to consider hollow point bullets for new pistol

    Hollow Point Ammunition IS Primarily used for CROWD CONTROL...


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    Army to consider hollow point bullets for new pistol

    By Kyle Jahner, Staff writer 3:20 p.m. EDT July 10, 2015

    (Photo: Istock photo)


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    The Army is considering the use of expanding and fragmenting ammunition, such as hollow point bullets, to increase its next-generation handgun's ability to stop an enemy.
    This bit of news was revealed Tuesday, during the service's fourth industry day for its Modular Handgun System.
    After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
    Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of asymmetric warfare.
    "There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now," Jackson said.
    More than 20 manufacturers are vying to make the Army's next handgun, dubbed the XM-17. The solicitation for the contract is to produce more than 280,000 guns for the Army, and is expected to drop later this month, said Lt. Col. Terry Russell, program manager for individual weapons at Program Executive Office Soldier. First deliveries are currently slated for 2018.
    Most of the Army uses full metal jacket, or ball ammunition, in both handguns and rifles. These rounds are designed to hold together, increasing penetration and narrowing the tunnel of damaged tissue.
    Expanding and fragmenting bullets can flatten or break apart, and are more likely to remain in the body of a target and transfer all of their energy to it. A wider swath of tissue is typically destroyed.
    Modern complaints against the M9 have included stopping power. The potential shift toward hollow point ammunition could allow manufacturers a tool to change the ballistics equation substantially, without a shift away from the 9 mm round. Advantages of a 9 mm round include theoretically larger magazine capacity (because of a smaller bullet) and adherence to the NATO standard, allowing for interoperability of the allied nations' weapons.

    On the battlefield, the U.S. has generally observed the 1899 Hague Convention rule barring expanding and fragmenting rounds, despite the fact that it never has been signatory to that particular agreement, Russell said.
    The U.S. reserved the right to use different ammunition where it saw a need. For example, Criminal Investigations Command and military police use hollow points — as do law enforcement agencies around the country — in part to minimize collateral damage of bullets passing through the target. Special Forces also uses expanding/fragmenting rounds in counter-terrorism missions.
    "The use of this ammunition supports the international law principles of preventing excessive collateral effects and safeguarding civilian lives," an Army statement said.
    In theory, the Pentagon appears to have legally justified broader use that could include rifle rounds, Russell said, though he also called the standard issue 5.56 mm Enhanced Performance Round (M855A1) "a very good performing round."
    "I don't know that there would be a necessity to have another round, but I'm not the requirements writer, either," Russell said.
    The competition to replace the long-standing Beretta M9 standard had already been opened to weapons of different calibers, opening the door to .40 and .45 caliber handguns. Russell noted the complexity of the different variables that come into play.
    For example a larger round means more bullet mass and more gun powder, both of which would give it more power. But that can also damage accuracy, with more recoil forcing a shooter to spend more time reacquiring the target.
    "It's about better performance than what we currently have, which includes the shootability," Russell said. "You can't just isolate one variable (as more important than the other)."
    "We want them to produce the best system that meets the requirement."
    The FBI switched from 9 mm to .40 caliber after a deadly 1986 shootout in Miami in which the shooters managed to keep fighting after being hit. The FBI is in the process of switching back to 9 mm – though the federal law enforcement agency uses hollow point bullets.

    The Hague Convention of 1899 included a declaration banning bullets that "expand or flatten easily in the human body." The premise of the convention – designed well before World War I – was that the bullets caused unnecessary and therefore inhumane injury unrelated to stopping a combatant from continuing to fight. The U.S. did not to sign onto that rule.
    The British – its most fierce opponent in 1899 because of its use of flattening "dum-dum" bullets, most frequently on the frontier of British India – later signed on in the Hague Convention of 1907.

    http://www.armytimes.com/story/milit...oint/29886907/

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    EXPLAINED.

    DHS won't explain its order of 450 million hollow point bullets

    Published time: April 03, 2012 21:48
    Edited time: May 26, 2012 19:10 Get short URL

    Department of Homeland Security (DHS) researchers use advanced modeling and simulation equipment as they work on the DHS Control Systems Security Program (CSSP) in this handout photo taken April 28, 2010 at the Idaho National Laboratory in Idaho Falls, Idaho (Reuters/Chris Morgan/Idaho National Laboratory)



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    Arms, DHS, Military, Terrorism, USA

    After 9/11, the United States government created the Department of Homeland Security to prevent future acts of terrorism and deal with other domestic issues. Now in order to keep doing such, the agency is asking for 450 million hollow point bullets.
    The DHS has signed off on an “indefinite delivery” from defense contractors ATK that will include, for some reason, nearly 500 million high-power ammunition for .40 caliber firearms. The department has yet to discuss why they are ordering such a massive bevy of bullets for an agency that has limited need domestically for doing harm, but they say they expect to continue receiving shipments from the manufacturer for the next five years, during which they plan to blow through enough ammunition to execute more people than there are in the entire United States.
    “We are proud to extend our track record as the prime supplier of .40 caliber duty ammunition for DHS,” reads an official statement from Ron Johnson, ATK’s president of Security and Sporting, who adds that his group will also be giving up weaponry to the DHS subdivision of ICE, or Immigrations and Custom Enforcement.
    While ammunition itself seems not too unreasonable of a request by a major federal entity that emphasizes domestic durability and safeguarding the country from coast to coast, the choice — and quantity — of its hollow point order raises a lot of questions about future plans for the DHS. ATK says they won their contract with the US government by being able to provide them with 450 million HST bullets, which it describes as “the next generation in high performance duty ammunition.”
    What does that mean, exactly? On their website, the contractor claims that the ammunition is specifically designed so that it can pass through a variety of obstructions and offers “optimum penetration for terminal performance.” Or, in other words, this is the kind of bullet designed to stop any object dead in its tracks and, if emptied into the hands of the DHS a few hundred million times, just might do as much.
    Since its inception, the Department of Homeland Security has not only absorbed ICE and other government entities, but has arguably extended its powers much more broadly than many had imagined. Under the recently authorized Trespass Bill, H.R. 347, protesters that allegedly disrupt occurrences acknowledged by the DHS of being a National Special Security Event will be charged with a federal crime. As the DHS gains more and more ground in fighting terrorism domestically, the US at the same time has turned the tables to make its definition of terrorist way less narrow. With any American blogger or free thinking on the fringe of what the government can go after under H.R. 347, or the National Defense Authorization Act that allows for the indefinite detention of US citizens without charge, the DHS could just be blasting through what’s left of its budget to make sure that its roster of agents across the country can get in their target practice over the next few years.
    Of course, the government might just want to ensure that each one of those agents is more than able to assassinate Americans not just around the globe, but on their own soil. After all, for all of those angsty alleged Americans engaged in terrorism abroad, the US has the largest military in the history of the world to deal with them. In that case, they could argue that it only makes sense to equip their armed forces at home as well.

  3. #3
    Senior Member JohnDoe2's Avatar
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    August 17, 2012
    From NRA:

    "Perhaps most strangely, some have cited the purchase of hollow-point ammunition as evidence of the federal government's evil motives. Hollow-points are the defensive ammunition of choice for federal, state and local law enforcement officers across the country, just as they are for private citizens.These attacks are eerily similar to statements made by gun prohibitionists, who spent much of the '70s, '80s and '90s complaining about "dum dum" bullets. (In fact, the Violence Policy Center's website still exhibits a publication lamenting that federal ammunition law "has no effect on today's generation of high-tech hollow-point ammunition.") The attacks also ignore the fact that federal agents, unlike average taxpayers on more limited budgets, normally train and qualify with their duty ammunition."

    NRA-ILA | ILA Home

    Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy Ammunition

    Posted on August 17, 2012

    You may recently have seen some in the Internet rumor mill feverishly repeating the obvious truth above, in an effort to stir up fear about recent acquisitions of ammunition by the Department of Homeland Security and a number of smaller agencies. The mildest writers have questioned why seemingly mundane agencies would need ammunition at all; more incendiary authors suggest that these government agencies are preparing for a war with the American people.

    Much of the concern stems from a lack of understanding of the law enforcement functions carried about by officers in small federal agencies. These agents have the power to make arrests and execute warrants, just like their better-known counterparts at agencies like the FBI.

    For instance, the Social Security Administration
    solicited offers for 174,000 rounds of pistol ammunition. But the agency has 295 special agents who combat Social Security fraud that costs tax payers billions each year, so the order works out to roughly 590 rounds of ammunition per agent for training, mandatory quarterly qualification shooting and duty use. More than a few NRA members would use that much ammunition in a weekend shooting class or plinking session.

    Another recent rumor questioned a request for 46,000 rounds of.40-caliber ammo by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. NOAA inadvertently fueled that speculation through a clerical error that suggested the ammunition was destined for the National Weather Service. NOAA later clarified that the ammunition was actually for the little known
    Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement, which enforces laws against illegal fishing and marine life importation. The ammunition is for 63 personnel, amounting to about 730 rounds per officer.

    The most widespread of the recent rumors involves a Department of Homeland Security contract for a maximum of 450 million rounds of .40-caliber jacketed hollow-points, to be supplied over the next five years.

    After receiving numerous questions from his constituents regarding the contract, pro-Second Amendment U.S. Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-Ga.) and his staff set out in search of the truth. In a
    press release, Rep. Westmoreland's office explains:

    If you take the number of agencies that will be using this ammunition – CBP, Citizenship and Immigration Services, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), ICE, the U.S. Secret Service, Transportation Security Administration, the DHS police force, and all the guards that protect the various buildings these agencies are housed in, and spread that out over 5 years, you start to see that 450 million rounds really isn't that large of an order. Especially considering it is used for training purposes like firing range and live fire exercises, on-the-job use (though that is very limited), and to shore up their supplies. In fact, there are 65,000 – 70,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS who would be covered under this … ammunition contract. If DHS were to purchase all 450 million rounds over 5 years, then that would equate to only about 1,384 rounds of ammo per year per law enforcement [officer] … assuming the lower estimate of only 65,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS. Considering those agents go through training exercises several times per year, that is not a lot of ammunition.

    Perhaps most strangely, some have cited the purchase of hollow-point ammunition as evidence of the federal government's evil motives. Hollow-points are the defensive ammunition of choice for federal, state and local law enforcement officers across the country, just as they are for private citizens. These attacks are eerily similar to statements made by gun prohibitionists, who spent much of the '70s, '80s and '90s complaining about "dum dum" bullets. (In fact, the Violence Policy Center's website still exhibits a publication lamenting that federal ammunition law "has no effect on today's generation of high-tech hollow-point ammunition.") The attacks also ignore the fact that federal agents, unlike average taxpayers on more limited budgets, normally train and qualify with their duty ammunition.

    As most gun owners will agree, skepticism of government is healthy. But today, there are more than enough actual threats to the Second Amendment to keep gun owners busy. With two key Supreme Court decisions hanging by a one-vote margin, the Justice Department deeply involved in a cover-up of a disastrous Mexican gun smuggling operation, and President Obama touting a ban on popular semi-automatic firearms, there is no need to invent additional threats to our rights.

    http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2012/federal-law-enforcement-agencies-buy-ammunition.aspx

    http://www.alipac.us/f9/why-departme...ullets-272796/
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    One can be Only a part of a Solution or part of a Problem. Towing a line will never solve anything. Skepticism is for when intentions are not known. 50 years of preparations, lies, and non-transparency has caused me to pass the skeptic a long time ago, but thanks for your 2013 copy/paste about an article from Friday, August 17, 2012..
    Last edited by WalkerStephens; 07-10-2015 at 07:17 PM.

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    "Scoop" I had to go back a few years to find a 2012 Forbes article "DHS is in the process of stockpiling more than 1.6 billion rounds of hollow-point ammunition, that’s enough firepower to fight the equivalent of a 24-year Iraq war." You realize(read) the Main Topic of my post was from "Army Times"(Military)? It seemed like your post on my page was hinting at "Hollow-points are the defensive ammunition of choice for federal, state and local law enforcement officers across the country"(Law Enforcement). I would stick to the simple copy/paste Drudge links. That Canada T-Mobile Post was Fascinating. "Scoop"

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...ored-vehicles/

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    NO AMNESTY

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    "Speak when spoken to" - Your Mother

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkerStephens View Post
    The U.S. reserved the right to use different ammunition where it saw a need. For example, Criminal Investigations Command and military police use hollow points — as do law enforcement agencies around the country — in part to minimize collateral damage of bullets passing through the target.
    Hollow point ammo does more damage to the target and less damage to bystanders.
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    A quote in an article I posted was given and then a text message saying the exact same thing. I would assume you either dont get my point(I am not a great Communicator) or you are purposely trying to ignore it. A "taboo" topic like "Dumb Dumb" Ammo is now being made PUBLIC. Making something PUBIC BY AN MILITARY can ONLY be used to CONDITION its ENEMY."Walk with a Big Stick". OUR Government HAS MILITARIZED OUR POLICE and IS conducting "GeoInt" Mapping of the Human Domain(Jade Helm). Forbes posted DHS(Big Bro Police/Military) have "purchased 1.6 BILLION Rounds of HOLLOW POINT AMMUNITION, enough Ammo to fight a 24 year WAR."IN 2012. Billions more Purchased since. Government's, even UNITED STATES Corp., are "Evil", meaning they all Fall at some point(Democracies average 200 years) to its citizenry. WE are 238 and OUR Government KNOW History and are PROTECTING THEMSELVES(a Human Psychologically Heath Act).

    Making Public Hollow Point Ammo is another example of "A Creeping/Incrementalism Government". History tells US 2 Sides ARE Closing In on EACH OTHER and ENOUGH MAXIMUM DAMAGE AMMUNITION TO FIGHT A 24 YEAR WAR is a topic that deserves a little attention. We wont even get into the Corruption in Washington without have "Declassified Document" to avoid being called "Conspiracy Theorists" or "Racists" if we discuss certain "Officials" of a different Race, or "Sexists", Homophobes, "Radicals, Islamaphobes, and/or Terrorists."

    When WE decide that "WE HAVE THE GOVERNMENT WE DESERVE" and WE "Get Together"(Gov calls it Civil Unrest) A HOLLOW POINT BULLET WILL BE USED TO PSYCHOLOGICALLY DISCOURAGE US BY FORCING US TO WITNESS THE MAXIMUM DAMAGE TO THE PATRIOT IN FRONT OF US.


    "The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values ... The capacity to assert social and political control over the individual will vastly increase ... Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen." — Zbigniew K. Brzezinski, former U.S. National Security Adviser, Between Two Ages: America's Role in the Technetronic Era (New York, NY: Viking Press, 1970).
    Last edited by WalkerStephens; 07-13-2015 at 10:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member JohnDoe2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vistalad View Post
    Hollow point ammo does more damage to the target and less damage to bystanders.
    Unless you miss the target and hit the bystander.
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