Quote:
delete article
I want to re-nominate this article for deletion. She is not notable. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Support deleting. Not notable and there is no reason to think the person this article is about will be notable in the future WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Being mentioned a few times by the media doesn't make you notable. I'm using this same argument for all biography articles being nominated for deletion that are related to Barack Obama, it's clear that Michelle Obama is the only notable person given an article, the others all seem to be fluff. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Note - ObamaGirlmachine (above) is a problematic and potentially disruptive new WP:SPA account that has been canvassing others to come to this and other pages in an attempt to delete articles for Obama family members. Suggest speedy closure if these articles are nominated. - Wikidemo (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
As Josiah notes, a TIME Magazine cover story quashes any "notability" argument for deletion, and the independent notabilty barrier for WP:SS spinouts isn't very high anyway. No way is this article going to be deleted. Andyvphil (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose deleting. I think that she is notable based on her being the primary long-term formative care giver of candidate Sen. Obama. Her life, upbringing, beliefs and major lifetime experiences are part of the story of Sen. Obama. --TGC55 (talk) 01:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Not happening, and this wouldn't be the way to go about considering it anyway. Tvoz/talk 02:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is the part where they come up short in finding any evidence of a marriage license, and in other locations I've also seen speculation that Ann Dunham might not have been of legal age which might have been 20 back in 1961. (The marriage statutes in force now allow 18 as the legal age.)
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Defining who she is
There is some merit in deletion of an article about a woman who is dead and for whom we have very little verifiable information short of a candidate for an important political office. The latest from his book about her being terrifically religious just does not ring true IMO. But what else do we have? Observations from a divorced spouse? Student7 (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
They're both dead too. But it wasn't in his book that Obama said his mother was religious -- only when campaigning in the Bible Belt. Andyvphil (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Without trying to impugn the candidate, that observation seems less than scholarly to me. I would like to see it removed. Student7 (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Article contradicts itself regarding marriage to Obama Sr.
The first paragraph of the "First Marriage" section states that, "the couple was married on February 2, 1961... " and then the last paragraph in the same section states that, "no evidence has yet been presented to show they were ever married." So, which is it? It seems to me that encyclopedic content must not only be verifiable, it ought not contradict itself. Maybe it could be re-worded to state that they were allegedly wed, but no evidence exists (really? Anyone check with Maui records?).Techwritrr (talk) 23:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)techwritrr
It looks like 65.8.69.15 decided to mess with that section for no good reason. Another editor has already fixed the problem. --M@rēino 03:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
While it does not reflect on her child, it is clear to the media that Dunham was never married the "first" time. They always say that "there was no record of their marriage/divorce" when referring to this arrangement.
This leaves Wikipedia, who always needs proof of being the only game in town that is pretending that there ever was a marriage in the first place. The son does not wish to look at this too closely. That is understandable.
Obama Sr. was reputedly married in his home nation so it would have been bigamy if they had married. I really don't know what to do here, but the current language of pretending their was a first marriage is wearing a bit thin, since we're the only ones doing that. Then referring to her "two" ex-husbands. How about the two ex-fathers? At least that would be accurate. Student7 (talk) 11:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Good luck with that. You can bet a billion dollars there are paid campaign staffers looking at this wikipedia article hourly. 76.229.171.85 (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, you are right there! You'd think that some reporter would mosey down to the courthouse. They must either have a record there or no record. I assume that all research has come up empty-handed which is why it "can't be verified." Student7 (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
"And then there was a problem with your father’s first wife. He had told me that they were separated. But it was a village wedding, so there was no legal document that could show a divorce." - Dreams from my Father.
Ann was apparently under 18 when she became pregnant. It's my understanding that the age at which a woman could contract marriage in Hawaii was still 20 at that time.
I saw a supposed quote from Obama's book that said that he "didn't want to look too closely" at his mother's first marriage, suggesting that he suspected that she wasn't really married but really didn't want to know either, somewhat understandably. If someone can come up with the exact quote, I think I will change the article so it doesn't mention her "first marriage." Make it marriage-independent. Student7 (talk) 18:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Now that it's clear that the Obama campaign released a fake birth certificate--with campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt insisting it was real[1]--many people are wondering if perhaps Sen. Obama doesn't want people to see something on his real (and complete) birth record. Speculations on what that might be range from the possibility that his parents weren't married, to his place of birth not being Hawaii, to political strategy (to waste time of those who are concerned about his credibility).
For a sitting senator to perpetrate a fraud for political gain would not be new (and taking note of it is not the point of Wikipedia), but the relevant point is that it would impact this article a great deal. Already, there's no marriage license or other direct info on Dr. Dunham's marriage, and likewise, only fake documentation has been provided of her son's birth, so it highlights the fact that this article makes unsupported (unverifiable) claims--and we might soon discover that some are, additionally, incorrect.
And I'm not stupid...I recognize that the Obama campaign staff has folks watcing this site, ready to vandalize the site. But that doesn't mean we should stop fighting to do things right 68.83.72.162 (talk) 08:14, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I could understand your conspiratorial tones if there were just some reason for Obama to be lying. But, much like the McCain birth certificate conspiracy, this one falls on its face once you realize that Congress defines the term "natural born Citizen" and has zero interest in disqualifying either of these candidates. --M@rēino 15:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
These are the facts as I understand them: The birth certificate is real. You go to the county courthouse, and you get a printout in whatever the currently-used format is. (As a point of interest...if you apply for a passport, the 'original' birth certificate isn't good enough if it's an 'old version' - you have to get a new copy.) The marriage was real (Obama was understandably reluctant to embarrass his mother, or more likely his grandmother and sister, by providing the date which was less than nine months before Barack was born). It wasn't bigamy because his father's village marriage was undocumented and wouldn't have been recognized in Hawaii. The divorce is real. (People who insist on believing in various conspiracy theories are also real, unfortunately.) Flatterworld (talk) 16:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I think we've gone a bit further here than the original topic. I think the only problem originally was whether his parents were married at all, not whether Obama was born in Hawaii. It is true that his parents claimed to be married on such and such a date on their divorce application. The reality of the first marriage seems doubtful, which is no big deal in itself but of interest to the article. Documenting the "first" marriage as fiction is not without editorial problems however, which is why it hasn't been done. Student7 (talk) 22:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Unmarried mother + birth in Hawaii would = natural born citizen. British Nationality Act of 1948 assumed children took their father's citizenship only if there was a marriage in place by the date of birth.
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Obama biographer David Mendell reports that Barack Obama Senior rented a small one floor house near the campus of the University of Hawaii around this time, ostensibly as a home for his young wife and their new son. It's not clear how much time the Barack Obama Senior family spent there together living under the same roof. (36)
On at least one occasion, very shortly after the birth of Barack Obama Junior, friends of Stanley Ann Dunham recall her visiting them in Seattle with her new born baby, Barack Obama Junior.
Susan Blake, another high school classmate, said that during a brief visit in 1961, Dunham was excited about her husband's plans to return to Kenya "We all had June Cleaver as our role models, and she was blazing new trails for herself," said Blake, a former Mercer Island city councilwoman. (37)
Blake recalls that Dunham, who was calling herself Ann Obama at the time, visited her at her house in Mercer Island during the last week of August, 1961.
She left Honolulu just as soon she had clearance from her doctor to travel with her new baby. He was just 3 weeks old. She had sent a postcard that she would be in town, and was staying with a friend of her mother's. She drove out to my house in her mother�s friend's car, and we spent the entire day together. She was very excited about her new life, and her husband. She was nuts about him, crazy in love. I was under the impression that he had left Honolulu before Barack's birth, that he had gone to Harvard already for his studies, and that Ann was on her way to join him there. She planned on raising her son, getting a job, and attending school, she told me. Her husband would head back to Kenya after graduating from Harvard to join the newly formed government, and she would take her place beside him. It was all very exciting, a dramatic change in her life in the one year since she had graduated from high school. (38)
If the mother wasn't married and if the birth was in Hawaii, he's home free as a natural born citizen.