Thread: The conservative poll Donald Trump could not win

I have actually been listening to my not so political friends and the friends of my grandchildren and I am finding their number one concern is what they consider to be an attack on christian values and christian beliefs. I am seeing more and more young people who were not church goers getting together and having Bible study. These are the college educated young people who are doing their own research to find their answers. More and more I am finding that these young people seem to like and relate to Ben Carson.

Judy wrote:

You're putting faith in a false government number that isn't accurate, it's manufactured.

You have absolutely no way of knowing if the number is factual or not. You're voicing an opinion and attempting to pass it off as an actual fact. Just saying ......

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

If this is true and being accurately reported it is sad news to hear. Trump is talking about a war on Christians and how Mexico does not like WASPs (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) and as such he is identifying himself as a protestant... but to have never asked God for forgiveness of sins.. that is a huge departure from Christianity.

Are we not all called to be very humble before God?

W

Well, if we were going to be "Christian" about the subject of immigration one could even argue that we should turn the other cheek and just let illegal immigrants come in here, and work us over for all we got. I CAN separate out faith and political policy a bit though, and say that a nation has an inherent right to define its borders. Now Trump?---To me he was basically the anti Christ, due to his basic unethical behavior of prodding people to gamble more, and lots of vice also goes along with gambling centers. Basically a Sodom and Gomorrah scene. Plus he walked off on debts, and is arrogant and mouthy---All of these major sins.

But the gloves have come off in US politics anyway. Liberals will constantly distort what you say (lying, false reporting), they abuse the government with lawsuits (defying ruling authorities);they promote vices and perverted behavior (like homosexuality and beast like personal practices), they corrupt children (should be drowned with a millstone); they divide people (the worst sin according to Dante: sowing discord). And when we have had some street protests, the libs will actually come right up to you and make threatening gestures and repulsive comments. They actually could be arrested and jailed under Disorderly Conduct charges.

So Trump is an arrogant, impetuous, calculating bully? Probably what we need, and I think he also is a fast learner.

Originally Posted by Judy

What are you saying? I didn't paint anyone as an "anti-big government hero". Republicans have always opposed the income tax, we've opposed it vehemently since it was instituted by Democrats in 1913. We spend more money funding the IRS to process paperwork and invade people's lives than we spend on EPA to clean up and protect our environment.

The annual budget for the IRS in 2016 will be $14 Billion.

The annual budget for the EPA in 2016 will be $8.5 Billion.

You're putting faith in a false government number that isn't accurate, it's manufactured. This is the same government that lies about trade and tells our citizens "free trade is good for America" when it's the complete opposite, that lies about immigration and tells our citizens "illegal aliens do the jobs Americans won't do" when Americans are being fired and replaced with illegal aliens, that lies about unemployment that tells our citizens our unemployment rate is only 5.1% when it's 3 times that number due to the number of people who after looking for work for so long finally gave up doing so.

My point was you're hanging your hat on a false number that isn't true. I gave you the link to show you why it is patently false, a number that is higher during the recession years than their number for 2001, at the height of our economy and tax revenue based on income, which is a mathematical impossibility. Our economy collapsed and stayed that way for years, yet the IRS claims more tax was evaded which means more tax was owed but not paid during those years than in 2001.

You can't get blood from a turnip. When the incomes aren't there because the economy isn't producing the net income to generate the tax, then there is no evasion, it's just no income means no tax.

Judy, your answer is veering all over the place. I'm not going to argue this further past this point. We can talk about maybe finding a better tax policy, and I definitely think we could do much better--and in the process eliminate the self defeating bureaucracy that we have now for collecting taxes. Does this give a person the moral right to not pay because the system is bad? A person can always say that "the system is bad" and justify not paying then. But my statement addressed moral hypocrisy, also: i.e. Can we say "Disobeying tax laws is OK, but disobeying immigration law ( even though you may be impoverished or fearing for your family's lives) is bad?" That would really get conservatives called out as hypocrites, even though those doing the finger pointing are hypocritical as well. Now...I would like to see someone like Michele Bachman address this tax collection gap; it's her specialty. But she covertly sides with conservative tax resisters anyway...and further, smiles all the way to the bank. Do I have to point out some other reasons why conservatives lose elections, then?

Originally Posted by Captainron

Judy, your answer is veering all over the place. I'm not going to argue this further past this point. We can talk about maybe finding a better tax policy, and I definitely think we could do much better--and in the process eliminate the self defeating bureaucracy that we have now for collecting taxes. Does this give a person the moral right to not pay because the system is bad? A person can always say that "the system is bad" and justify not paying then. But my statement addressed moral hypocrisy, also: i.e. Can we say "Disobeying tax laws is OK, but disobeying immigration law ( even though you may be impoverished or fearing for your family's lives) is bad?" That would really get conservatives called out as hypocrites, even though those doing the finger pointing are hypocritical as well. Now...I would like to see someone like Michele Bachman address this tax collection gap; it's her specialty. But she covertly sides with conservative tax resisters anyway...and further, smiles all the way to the bank. Do I have to point out some other reasons why conservatives lose elections, then?

I've not said anything about whether it's right for someone to not pay their taxes. That's between them and their government. My issue was with the number of $500 billion in tax evasion. I don't believe that number. That number isn't true. You think I'm veering all over the place? No, I'm simply sticking to the point I made which is that the $500 billion is wrong. It's not an actual number, it's an estimated number based on a model based on assumptions based on a poll. It's not an actual number, it's a manufactured number, a fabricated number, a created number, it's not a real number. It's not a number where the IRS has audited taxpayers, determined tax owed and not paid, and is owing. It's a made-up number.

In order for there to be $500 billion in income taxes owed in evaded tax, that means there's at least $1.5 trillion or more in untaxed but taxable net income or profits out there that isn't being reported. All major corporations are audited every year. All wages are taxed by employers. 72 million people are on Medicaid and have to show their income tax returns to sign up for it. Another 60 million are on Social Security. Just do the numbers .... there is no way this $500 billion number is correct. Virtually all income is reported if not by the person earning it, the person paying it. It is not possible. So, I'm just going to leave it there.

The only reason it matters in this conversation, is because it's a false number that can not be relied upon in any way, shape or form, as a revenue generator to fill the budget gap or pay down the debt. Sure, there's some figure out there, even people who file tax returns cheat. They cheat on charitable donations, they don't report cash income they earn on the side of their primary job, but look around, the people who do that do not owe $500 billion in unpaid income tax. They cheat because they can't live on their wages, so they work hard on the side doing something else and are paid in cash to run down and pay the utility bill before they cut it off, and there's nothing left to send to the government to pay down the national debt.

So do you really want to spend $50,000 in an arrest and prosecution of someone earning $20,000 a year that his employer reports and withholds income tax from, who picks up another $2000 a year doing handyman work to pay the utility bill or fix the car so he can get to work?

The IRS is doing our country a tremendous disservice by circulating this false information. Revenues don't match our expenditures on the federal level because we're wasting too much money expending on things for which we have no result and see no benefit and the economy despite all the lies from DC telling US everything is wonderful when we know it isn't. Incomes are down, and when incomes are down, so are tax revenues, so unless you cut the spending or find a new way to collect revenue that actually helps keep the economy roaring and pushes incomes up, there's going to be a deficit and a growing national debt with absolutely no way to fix it under the current income tax scheme.

Not once in 102 years has the federal income tax scheme paid all the bills. Not once. There were a few times when it got close but the rates were too high to maintain the economy which is why our companies started leaving our nation for foreign shores, taking their great jobs, wages, benefits, investment, infrastructure and technology with them.

In 2012, 47% of US taxpayers owed no tax and paid no tax. That number is probably 50% today. The top 25% is high on the audit list, with much at stake and few would dare risk a tax evasion event.

So, please don't ask me or anyone else to believe that the remaining 25% in the middle income class of our country owes the IRS $500 billion in evaded taxes. It just isn't true. It's a mathematical impossibility.

Originally Posted by MW

Judy wrote:



You have absolutely no way of knowing if the number is factual or not. You're voicing an opinion and attempting to pass it off as an actual fact. Just saying ......

I know for a FACT the number is not FACTUAL.

The IRS didn't use fact, they use a model, based on assumptions, they apply to a poll. That's an estimate, not fact. And that's a fact.

I took the time to provide you all with a link about how the IRS comes up with this number, the "methodology" and you can read from that to learn that it is not fact and there are all types of problems with their methodology.

When almost half of US taxpayers don't owe or pay any tax to begin with, and the top 25% are high targets for IRS audits, all use accountants and professional to make sure they file, they file right and don't make any mistakes, that leaves the middle 25% of US taxpayers, who all either work for someone or own their own companies and file all types of income tax reports that makes it almost impossible for them to cheat. If anyone with 2 live brain cells still connected wants to believe that this group of middle income earners owes the US government $500 billion in evaded tax, then well, they're free to believe any fairy-tale the government wants to hand out to them to turn them against each other.