Desire your critique

Gang:

I would like you to critique my thoughts.

Caveats:

I am against Mexicans – period. I have nothing against people of Mexican heritage who renounce their ties to their filthy culture of failure, become lawful United States citizens and assimilate into the mainstream fabric of our historic culture that this nation’s success is predicated upon, but I have a huge problem with Mexicans or any groups who are anything other than 100% American (as in United States citizens) including hyphenated Americans.

That being stated I think it is imperative that as a nation we show nothing less than a visceral hatred and social intolerance toward all those illegally in this country and to any group not readily attempting to assimilate into the mainstream fabric of our historic culture of success. I believe this is important because if we as a nation show any weakness we will end up with yet again another amnesty that solves nothing, and via the legislation of chain migration and reunification we will simply have lost our country due to the superior numbers of the new “immigrants� and their prolific prodigy.

To that end, what would be wrong with a nation wide series of protests against the people of Mexico and Mexicans in the form of organized flag burnings featuring the Mexican Flag and the effigy execution of illegal aliens?

Granted “we� seem to be making some progress via civil channels, however as I have repeatedly states I believe we are simply negotiating the terms of our surrender. In other words our lawmakers are taking this pointed dissatisfaction by United States citizens as the impetuous to push through some placating legislation that is simply unacceptable. The Kennedy-McCain bill is proof that our Government officials think they can pacify the masses and once again ignore the wishes of the general populace. And Jorge Bush as recently pointed out in another thread is:

<begin snip>

George W. Bush had indicated that he was not for no amnesty legislation for illegal immigrants

<end snip>

This does not sound to me like a Government that is concerned or realizes the true feelings of Untied States citizens regarding this matter. I contend we need to turn up the heat in a obedient manner. No screaming, no yelling, just a speech, a few well placed civil slogans and then the burning of the Mexican flag while someone on a loud speaker gives a pronouncement to the effect:

- We reject the presence of Mexican nationals in out community…
- We support the requirement that new citizens must learn English, reject political ties to their home land and pledge their allegiance to the United States of America.

- We reject the interference in our elections and political process by foreign nationals…

- And we reaffirm the sovereignty of the Untied States of America…


Then I would suggest a could of illegal aliens be burnt or hanged in effigy…while the speaker states…

- We will protect and defend our country from those who impune the sovereignty of the United States…

And close with “We the people of the Untied States of America implore you Mr. President to do you Constitutional duty as directed in Article 44, Section n4 of the United States Constitution and defend your nation against invaders. We implore you to do this Mr. President and the members of Congress so the citizens of this nation do not have to take the law into their own hands.

So now…what do you think? Remember I said no screaming or ranting, a neat orderly protest by United States citizens…not a raging mob (at least not yet)…

Patriotman[/list]

I agree patriotman. Only one thing. Burn all the flags shown on the blue latinos web site flag show. :evil:

Patriotman and Sixx,

This post is an excellent example of playing right into your own enemies hands. Why do you think it is that those that support illegal aliens are always pointing out those in our movement that are displaying hatred?

Why is that ya think? Why would a pro-illegal alien that is your opposition make the same statements you have here?

Why? Simply put such proclamations of hatred and anger work to your disadvantage. People in America have strong aversions to making decisions based out of anger and hate and for good reason.

Whenever there is a conflict, someone that feels like you do can't control themselves and sends angry over the top and sometimes racial emails to the people they oppose. This unbridled anger ends up being used as ammo against the rest of us.

If you are too angry to control it and so angry that you are blindly playing right into our enemies hands then either get control of it and direct it towards constructive use, or do the rest of us a favor and take a break from the movement, or at least take it somewhere else.

Not on this board. This board is for those that want to work towards having something real done to control illegal immigration and those that do not want their work ruined or set back by people that are hot headed and looking to spout off via emails, posts, or worse.

People that do that become poster boys and girls for our opposition to hoist up to the dismay of those that have control of their feelings.

W

Did you even read the post in its entirety, or do you always just fly off the handle in an emotional rage? Try reading it again and note the following:

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I contend we need to turn up the heat in a obedient manner. No screaming, no yelling, just a speech, a few well placed civil slogans and then the burning of the Mexican flag while someone on a loud speaker gives a pronouncement to the effect:

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Remember I said no screaming or ranting, a neat orderly protest by United States citizens…not a raging mob

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I find it interesting that I ask for a critique and I get a rebuke as follows:

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If you are too angry to control it and so angry that you are blindly playing right into our enemies hands then either get control of it and direct it towards constructive use, or do the rest of us a favor and take a break from the movement, or at least take it somewhere else.

Not on this board. This board is for those that want to work towards having something real done to control illegal immigration and those that do not want their work ruined or set back by people that are hot headed and looking to spout off via emails, posts, or worse.

People that do that become poster boys and girls for our opposition to hoist up to the dismay of those that have control of their feelings.

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That is a very nice way to engage in discourse [sarcasm intended]. And yet you complain of FreeRepublic? I asked for conversation pure and simple. You consider this post hotheaded? If so I suggest you consider checking your own emotional quotient.

Patriotman

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Originally Posted by patriotman

Gang:

I would like you to critique my thoughts.

Caveats:

I am against Mexicans – period. I have nothing against people of Mexican heritage who renounce their ties to their filthy culture of failure, become lawful United States citizens and assimilate into the mainstream fabric of our historic culture that this nation’s success is predicated upon, but I have a huge problem with Mexicans or any groups who are anything other than 100% American (as in United States citizens) including hyphenated Americans.

That being stated I think it is imperative that as a nation we show nothing less than a visceral hatred and social intolerance toward all those illegally in this country and to any group not readily attempting to assimilate into the mainstream fabric of our historic culture of success......[/list]

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You lost me at this point. Sorry, I did not read further but I think you would have lost over 90% of your audience before this point in your message.

You asked for an honest critique and I'm just telling you honestly.

The rule that the professionals use is that people remember the first and last things they read the most.

As a strategy, pros will put no more that 4 key points in a piece. Then they will prioritize them in importance A,B,C,D Then they arrange them in the piece A, C, D, B The third segment of any piece is the least likely to be read.

As far as Free Republic goes, you can place that crap in the wont fly category. "I am against Mexicans – period" & "we show nothing less than a visceral hatred and social intolerance toward all those illegally in this country" is WHAT JIM ROBINSON CLAIMS HE IS FIGHTING EVEN WHEN HE IS NOT!

You asked for an opinion and I'm glad you did. The only reason I'm even letting this post stand on this board, at the risk of fueling the fires of our opposition, is to illustrate to you and others where so many of our activists go wrong with their presentation.

In fact, we have had to ban several trolls that work for the Pro-illegal alien camp for this same thing when they have come on this board saying they hate so and so and let's hate this group etc...

If I have to get in a fight with someone, I want them angry and blind with fury. It makes them easier to beat.

The side that gets the angriest is losing and yes our side is losing with 6-10 thousand more illegal aliens coming each night.

That uncontrolled anger is natures last defense to survival and it is like road rage. It is not sufficient for the fight we face with considerations of legislation.. campaigns.. media and public awareness.

You are telling people you are against Mexicans and that we should exercise or show hate? Are you really on the immigration reform side?

W

We have to be better and sound better than those that spew hate at us or any "group".

What we need is more education for people that don't know all the particulars of this out of control immigration. The net has gotten it started, but there are multitudes that vote who don't use the net. Copy the best articles, especially about stuff like McCain/Kennedy's new plan. People have to know which of these people need voted out. Leave them everywhere...your doctors office, any lobby, everywhere.

This is going to be resolved mostly through the local level. Start working on your county commissioners, sheriffs. Get rid of them if they don't do the right thing.

Don't let anyone push you into losing your cool.

We have to get some new lawmakers in '06.
'08 is too late!

Good point AuntB. If we do not have enough dedicated communicators to block that amnesty and exercise enough control and organization for structure a strong fight then 2006 may be too late!

W

It seems to me that hatred for the mexican people in general is sadly misdirected. First of all, a sizable number of illegal aliens are not mexican at all. Second of all, those who are coming here are, for the most part, decent people who truly do just want to work and make a better future for themselves and their family. I cannot blame them at all for that.

The nations they live in a largely cesspools, but that does not make the people terrible... it says more about the few elites who are in charge of those countries than anything... most of whom are quite european in their ethnicity.

Among the populace of them who support the idea that our S/W states are part of mexico.. even most of them are not truly malign.. they are ignorant and have been filled with spew from a radical minority and their political leaders. Hatred for certain individuals in this war is justified, but if should be directed to whence it is deserved... their govt officials, a large number of our own govt officials, and the militant creeps that are using the average hispanic person and exploiting their ignorance.

Patrolman,
"I am against Mexicans - period." You are entitled to that opinion. But when you post it on a forum, it drags all the rest of us along for the ride.
I understand the resentment. But I don't hate Mexicans.
But I do resent this massive invasion of people who have absolutely no regard for our laws, our cultures, and our language. It so happens that the majority of these people are from Mexico. This infuriates me!
I am not against diversity either. But diversity is a blend of many people of different cultures, not the massive pouring in of one race and one culture that would make them the dominate people, and makes the rest of us minorities in our own country. This makes me mad. :evil:

Somehow I suspect some of you failed to read the qualifer that states:

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I have nothing against people of Mexican heritage who renounce

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However I did ask for critique and now I am getting it, so the thread is serving its intended purpose.

Patriotman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by patriotman

Somehow I suspect some of you failed to read the qualifer that states:

Quote:

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I have nothing against people of Mexican heritage who renounce

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However I did ask for critique and now I am getting it, so the thread is serving its intended purpose.

Patriotman

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I saw it, but it comes across as rather thin when compared to burning illegal aliens in effigy. Very strong in rhetoric and anger.. weak on logical statements with which we gain support of the public.

Patriotman,

I just think we should all leave the word hate out of our posts. I know the anger is rising and many of us consider our mission to be a race against time before things really go over the edge in this country.

Most of us may indeed be misguided with our letters and faxes to congress. The elections we hope to sway could already be rigged for all we know, but we must have hope and do all that we can to rectify this imbalance peacefully.

It's up to all of us to keep the tone and language as calm as possible. Passionate yes, hateful no. There are others that are very angry and we need to gather them, train them for political fighting, and channel that anger into the proper messages and methods.

W

I don't hate Mexican's I have even met a few I liked. I have depended on some Mexican legals and Puerto Rican's to watch my back in a few tight spots during my life. Heck, I don't hate the VC now.
Once you have let hate of an enemy or a problem take over you have lost.
I am totally against the illegal invasion of our country but I don't hate the invaders. I try to understand them, the way they think and why they are coming here. Then I will deal with the problem the best way I can.
You have to be careful about old hate cause he will eat you from the inside out like a cancer. It's hard not to hate when you see something you hold dearly being destoryed, I know I've been there.

If you have to hate anyone thats not 100% American I guess that would included me, Scotch/Irish, small bit English and some Tuscarora. But I am an American just like that legal Mexican and the Puerto Rican from NY I served with. We served under the same flag and will have the same respect as any other American.

William is absolutely right. We must contain our growing rage and channel it into constructive activity. Let's reserve our hate for the concept of the criminality of illegal immigration, not the immigrants themselves. Were I in their position and had no better options, I might try to do the same thing they are doing. Most of them are not evil, even though they have violated the law.

If we play up the hatred angle, then the charge of xenophobia has legs. I think the minutemen were the perfect example of how to handle yourself in this situation. They peacefully conducted their protest through the border watch and, try as they might, the media could not pin anything negative on them except for the guy who had the illegal pose with a t-shirt (wow, what a criminal act).

Having said all this, I have as much rage as the next person and I have vented it a few times in this forum. That's fine as long as we are only communicating with each other. It is when the information is tapped for public distribution that it becomes a major problem.

I have always followed politics and have voted in all the elections. I have never before joined a political action group of any kind before this. Despite my degree in Poli Sci and History and a ton of life and business experience, I am still a neophyte when it comes to this sort of thing. This is too important for us to foul it up in any way. We must act with passion combined with intelligence. It is going to be hard enough to wake America up to the danger. It will be impossible if we fly into a foaming at the mouth rage. We will be marginalized as fanatics, when in fact we are just deeply concerned American citizens. We must do this right.

Henceforth, I will try to take my own advice.

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weak on logical statements with which we gain support of the public.

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This is an excellent point. I still contend the basic idea is good (i.e. a very strong message, that invokes the image of POTENTIAL conflict, but does not resort to any, and is very, very orderly and restrained in the execution of the message) but the delivery of the message needs word-smithing.

Once again I'll contend(you can check previous posts on this) that most of "you/us/the movement" are being "played". As I have said all you are doing is negotiating the terms of your surrender. And the only way I see around that is to send a very, very strong message. Consider what just happened with the Border Patrol supposedly being told not to apprehend illegal aliens...I did not hear a very large outcry. My guess is "the movement" is being measured. And I bet the read on it is "if we give these guys a few 'victories' (i.e the REAL ID act and a few others yet to come) we can drag them all to the table to negotiate that which never should be negotiated in the first place and that is going to consist of some form of amnesty and guest worker (amnesty in disguise) program that includes family reunification (cultural genocide by the way).

The above is why I started this thread. I hope the “organizations that be� are on the up and up and their operatives wise up to the fact they are being "played". This then is my contribution to this movement. Wise up folks...it looks to me like the enemy is probing your lines and currently testing your strength. A victory on REAL ID and nearly simultaneous probe on the results of the Minute Man project. "I" use these tactics all the time when negotiating large business contracts to determine how much I have to give up and how much I can take.

By the by, I would love to be wrong. But then again Chris Simcox started this all out by stating he thinks we need a guest worker program and that he believes we "need" cheap foreign labor...to me that was starting from a position of weakness. You have to question what you are truly going to "gain" when you already have surrendered the game before you engaged in your first skirmish. This is what I mean by negotiating the terms of your surrender.

Patriotman

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As I have said all you are doing is negotiating the terms of your surrender.

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Patriotman, I don't think any of us sees it that way. I certainly don't. This may be a battle, but it is political and not military for now. We are fighting on several fronts, the most important of which is as someone said, "for the hearts and minds of the American people."

We will never win the liberal elite, but we can win that great American middle that elected George Bush with the anticipation he would act in our interests. He let them down and his approval numbers are beginning to reflect that. That great rock solid American from the heartland is a traditionalist whether he is a Democrat or Republican. He has grown up steeped in our democratic traditions. We have to respect that and conduct ourselves in a way which will encourage these folks to join us in the fight.

Perception can be more important than reality. The news media tried to make the Minutemen look like armed vigilantes. How many shots of their side arms did you see? Even on Fox News, every clip had the camera panning down to someone's automatic on their hip. They will not hesitate to do the same to us. If we act too radically, they will put us in the same category with the KKK and the Nazis.

I admire you passion and you have provoked a lot of thought with your post. I hope you channel that fire into the most productive activity possible.

Patriotman,

you also lost me after the first paragraph. Then as I read down, I saw your comments and decided to re-read your post. I have to agree with William on this one,

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Originally Posted by ALIPAC

I just think we should all leave the word hate out of our posts. I know the anger is rising and many of us consider our mission to be a race against time before things really go over the edge in this country.

W

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We must take the high road on this. You cannot make a second first impression. People new to this site might be turned off by the way it was written.

JMO, I could be wrong.

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Patriotman, I don't think any of us sees it that way.

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That is too bad. Because if you do not plainly see it, then you have already lost, and like I said you are now negotiating the terms of your surrender. Like I said, McCain and Kennedy proposed a ridiculous bill, which is a tactic. And your line was just probed. Expect a few more radical bills, and a few ones that look like a victory, and then the compromise will begin. But note, you do not have to negotiate anything, if you simply stand with the rule of law. But this is being positioned that you have to compromise on the rule of law. If you buy that, which many of you have, then you have already lost.

Since it appears you have no stomach for more “base� offensives may I suggest a flank attack that will at least give this “movement� parity? The various State moves to deny illegal aliens social services is very good, however the pile of cash pouring to nations like Mexico makes a very palatable target. Make a play to deduct the cost of incarcerating foreign national from any financial aid to other countries. At least then you have a chip to negotiate with at the table (there are others) and you’ll force the opposition to expend resources covering your move.

Regards,

Patriotman

Patriotman--A few thoughts of mine. My advice would be to go back and edit your post and remove those phrases that come across different than how you really feel overall. What you are suggesting is a protest to draw attention to the issue of how many in America feel about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION beause of all the problems this is causing our Nation.

Right now, the influx from Mexico is one of the biggest problem areas because of the numbers. All ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is undesired, unwanted and needs to stop...so we can get a handle on whether or not any more Legal Immigration is even needed at this time.

You are right in your statement that we are being "played". At least I feel that way. BUT, we will take what we can get and then keep working to get more through the legislative process. The McCain Kennedy Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act is a JOKE!! I posted the entire 150 pages a day or two ago with comments. I don't know how many people have had a chance to read it...but it is nothing more than a Fake Act NOT TO ACT....to legalize everyone here now with no restrictions of any kind on continuing illegal immigration over the borders or anywhere else!!

A protest is a good idea! And I know that in the world of protests they make signs and burn flags and have dramatic statements to make their point. As you know, protestors have been hard at work in the USA for many years with marches, protests, and so forth.

I'm not personally against any of the people who are guilty of illegal immigration. I just want them deported in accordance with our Rule of Law because they do not have the legal right to be here and should have been deported years ago.

I AM against those who have allowed it; who have aided it and abetted it; underwritten it; advocated it; profitted from it; and who are using it to change the political power of the United States to end the United States.

I AM against those who have taken jobs from Americans; deflated our wages and salaries; reduced our standard of living; crowded our schools, hospitals, highways, housing, stores; and hurt our People through rapes, robberies, assaults, murders, terror, and mutilations.

I AM against everyone in our Government who has sat down on the job; turned a blind eye to our law; turned their back on American Citizens they are paid to represent and protect; watched without any concern or compassion, the rapes, robberies, assaults, murders, terror, and multilations and all the other socio-economic consequences of their failure to enforce US Immigration Laws, US Labor Laws and US Civil Rights Laws.

These traitors have already changed our country in such a way that it will take years to undo the damage. That burden will fall on our children who may or may not be prepared to deal with it....which is why we must do it now.

This is the United States and We are the Americans, the most generous, most compassionate Nation on Earth with Each Other and Other Nations.

But, we are not silly....and do not have the right to sell out our country or American Citizens by laying down on our job....which is to protect our Nation from harm and destruction. Those who think they have the right to give something that does not belong to them to someone else free of charge are wrong plain and simple....they are violators of American Law, violators of Trust, violators of Oaths of Office, violators of Tax Exempt Status under IRS Code, violators of the US Constitution, violators of Immigration Law, violators of Labor Law and violators of Civil Rights Law.

The anger and frustration you feel is at these Institutions, the Invidivuals Operating Within Them AND the illegal aliens benefitting from these acts of abandonment of law and illegal advocacy of illegal aliens.

For example, it was disclosed by Bill O'Reilly today that the AMERICAN CATHOLIC BISHOPS of the CATHOLIC CHURCH are ADVOCATING:

1) legalization of all illegals

2) open borders

3) MORE development in developing countries

4) family reunification within the US

4) etc.

This is a legal political issue....has NOTHING to do with RELIGION!!

The Catholic Church operates financially in the United States as a religious organization....i. e. to save souls, take confessions, deliver Mass, and collect money...yes?

All the TIME and MONEY they spend on advocating, hiring big expensive spokesmans in normal suit attire to spread their political agenda through the nation's airwaves on Bill O'Reilly is a NON-RELIGIOUS ACTIVITY.

All the TIME and MONEY they spent on travel for their "meeting", every single dime that was and has been spent on the advocacy of illegal aliens in the United States was money wronfully spent by the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church can't even "manage" its priests sexual conduct, yet it has the AUDACITY to think we give a HOOT about what IT thinks should be done in the United States with regards to illegal aliens and all those participating in this criminal illegal immigraton activity in the United States.

Listen Up, Bishops, WE DON'T GIVE A HOOT WHAT YOU THINK!!

And what's more, I'll bet the vast majority of your parishioners don't care either. Your job is to save souls, take confessions, deliver a Mass, and collect money.

My advice to Catholics who are opposed to illegal immigration....hold back the money until the church refocuses on its duty to you.

Patriotman....direct your frustration and anger to the INSTITUTIONS and Leaders of those Institutions!!

They are all Houses of Cards....and Ready to Fall Flat on Their Faces.

In my opinion, its okay to be upset with illegal aliens too....but on something as huge as this is....it's more productive to discredit and shut down the Networks, the Advocacy Groups, the Sponsors, the Lawmakers turned Lawbreakers, the Elected, Appointed, and Employed Traitors in our Government....who have systematically built a:

Pipeline for Illegal Immigration

Shutdown the Pipeline.....Shutdown Illegal Immigration

Patriotman,

We have done pretty good with our moves so far all things considered. The strength of this organization is growing and many of the people on these forums are big cause of that.

We have played a critical role in what is happening and the information found in these forums and on this site is assisting Americans that are waking up on this issue.

I think somewhere between 30-70 thousand pages of material are now read on this site per day. We always must keep in mind as best we can where the American mindset is at.

Many of them still have no clue how bad things are and how bad they will get should we fail.

As far as a strategy and response to the news out of AZ about the Border Patrol, Im trying to work on that.

What you may see as a slow response can be a combination of things. One, everyone that knows me knows I like to plan a strategy out before execution. When I hit the switch, I want it to fly.

Secondly, we are doing damn good considering nobody has been paid and we have been fighting battles left and right.

Taking down those billboards was not easy. Knocking back the in-state tuition bill in NC was not easy. A lot of people put in a lot of time and all nighters to make those happen.

Let's face it, we are getting close to the higher political battles now. We will have to take on the Congress to block amnesty and have our shot in 06 elections. We may have to take on the President and the Associated Press.

Our entire movement is still a little dog compared to the money, power, and resources each of those groups have at their disposal.

We must chose our battles. We must use high strategy. We must be very careful in what we do and when.

We are NOT negotiating our surrender. We are taking our country back.

I know the speech Patriotman. Some people want to say because the language is not strong enough or the move is not of their chosing etc.. that it is a sign of weakness or cowardice and none of that applies to the people I know in ALIPAC.

As for Simcox, I really he hope he did not say that mess. If he did, then he can deal with the fallout from the movement.

Me, no guest worker program. We already have one, its called a green card and you should have it before you enter.

People that speak softly and caclulate their moves are the most formidable opponents you will ever see in action and many times you will never see them at all.

W

Great Post William. I too would like to add that I was surprised to learn that Chris Simcox is for a Guest Worker Program as I am 100% opposed to a new Guest Worker Program. As you point out, we already have AMPLE programs for letting legal workers into the United States to work temporarily and then return to their country of origin. We have had these programs for years.

Is it possible that Simcox made a statement about the Guest Worker Program because there is NO SUCH PROGRAM YET and it was like supporting nothing in reality?

I sure hope so.....his people will not be happy with that....unless it was just a general statement without any meaning because....there is no such program in existence or even proposed on paper to my knowledge by the President....it was just a FAKE ANNOUNCEMENT to tell aliens COME ON UP AND HELP ME, GEORGE BUSH, END THE USA!!

I will point out that I've heard Bill O'Reilly, as recently as tonight, say he supports a Guest Worker Program. I've also heard Lou Dobbs say he supports a Guest Worker Program. I think it is PC (politically correct thing they say) because there is no such thing in existence or even on paper and perhaps this lets them appease their OWNERS so they can get the AIRTIME to help us FIGHT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

It is all worth query......in my opinion.

I hope everyone read that Zogby poll we added to the homepage that showed 56% opposition and only 35% support at this time for a guest worker program.

We do not need to reward law breakers.

W

Good Post William. 56% OPPOSED TO Guest Worker Program. I hope Bill O'Reilly and Lou Dobbs see this. There is no justification at all for any type of Guest Worker Program....not at this time....none at all. If someone needs workers, they need to contact the Employment Security Commission of their state first and then the Employment Security Commissions of other states and arrange hirings from within the United States of American Citizens.

With all due respect, Patriotman, you are jumping to conclusions. Just because we do not advocate scorched earth tactics, does not mean surrender. I spent an hour last night e-mailing members of our state legislature, providing them with some quotes from the Hispanic extremist groups and imploring them to wake up and take the actions they can in this state to improve the situation, not encourage it. One legislator promptly wrote me back saying he was totally opposed to turning this country over to aliens. I then wrote him asking him to be proactive and promote legislation that will help, not harm.

You could certainly get a lot of attention burning flags and hanging people in effigy on the square in Charlotte, but the news dogs will immediately turn it against you in the court of public opinion.

This guest worker garbage doesn't fly. Even partial amnesty doesn't fly. We will continue to push and push for guarded borders, zero tolerance for illegals and all the rest. I think it's too soon to utilize the nuclear option. We want to win not blow ourselves up.

William writes:

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We have done pretty good with our moves so far all things considered

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Boy if anyone took my comments as shot against the dedication of the volunteers of this movement I apologize because I have nothing but respect for those trying to defend their country and preserve a legacy for their children and grandchildren.

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Secondly, we are doing damn good considering nobody has been paid and we have been fighting battles left and right.

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You are doing more than darn good…far more…

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We must chose our battles. We must use high strategy. We must be very careful in what we do and when.

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Hence my various posts. Everyone needs to be aware of the negotiating trap you may be walking into. Personally I see value in disassociated fringe groups stirring the pot, because when you come to formal agreements it is always more or less in the middle of the extremes of positions. If your position is reasonable from the start your end position will be some distance removed form what you consider acceptable.

William continues with:

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We are NOT negotiating our surrender. We are taking our country back.

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: )

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People that speak softly and caclulate their moves are the most formidable opponents you will ever see in action and many times you will never see them at all.

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You are very correct.

Scarecrow writes:

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With all due respect, Patriotman, you are jumping to conclusions.

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Correct I am. More to the point I am contingency planning and trying to plot what can be done to mitigate the possibility of every having to enact a contingency plan...i.e. if you can make the OBL have to defend other fires you can sacrifice a few of them at the table of negotiation...in negotiation everyone has to give...and once again "we" are negotiating...where is the impetus to deport every illegal alien (which would be lawful thing to do)? Answer - there is none, ergo we are already negotiating and we have already conceded that we are not truly willing to stand for "the rule of law".

Scarecrow writes:

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This guest worker garbage doesn't fly. Even partial amnesty doesn't fly. We will continue to push and push for guarded borders, zero tolerance for illegals and all the rest. I think it's too soon to utilize the nuclear option. We want to win not blow ourselves up.

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Oh no - see "nuclear option" has now joining the American lexicon - LOL!!!
To your point, you are correct to "too soon to utilize it", but it is a tool in the toolkit and the contingency plans should be evaluated with mobilizes at the ready for various scenarios.

All the best,

Patriotman

To all involved in this discussion:

Ok I've been reading into this discussion which I may add is a great discussion (probably the best I've read on this board) and I'm going to add my two cents worth (for what it's really worth which probably aint much anymore).

Ok Patriotman threw a bombshell of a post at the beginning and while his statements seem to be very strong and overwhelming when being read at first glance, I think he makes some good points. Do I hate Mexicans? Absolutely NOT. I don't think all of them are bad people and not all illegals are bad people overall. What I do hate with a passion is the illegal alien invasion, the illegals that committ heinous acts of violence on top of their being illegal, the illegals that purposely suck our systems dry and demand we give more or your a racist bs, those involved in aiding and abetting the invasion (politicans from our government and other foreign governments and other various pressure groups). For me it's not about race and it never will be. To me it always will be a rule of law issue.

But my biggest contention is what if Patriotman is right? What if we really are just merely negotiating the terms of our surrender? I think this is the biggest point he's made that really hit home with me. It doesn't look like the politicans really care or even notice what we are doing (if they do, they are doing a good job of hiding it) and are still pushing for ridiculous amnesty bills despite all of the phone, faxing, emails, protests, etc. What if all of this civil movement we are doing to get common sense legislation passed is really hoping against hope? He could be right you know. Then what? If the legislative/political movement doesn't work then what? Would Patriots suggestion really be that far fetched? Maybe his suggestion might seem over the top now, but I think we as a group should keep all of our options open and not be afraid to use them out of fear of what the media will do. Because guess what? The media is going to try to paint us as a bunch of Nazis no matter what we do and no matter how nice we are. Make no mistake, we are fighting an uphill battle. We are fighting for the very survival of our country. You think we're angry? No I for one am not angry, i'm downright livid and I can understand why some people are more than desperate to do anything to stop this invasion and destruction of our country at all cost. I think we are severely losing this fight big time. Of course we might have a few small victories under our belt, but we still don't have the respect of the politicans yet. They still view us as a fringe group of whackos that don't represent the will of the people. I know that's a lie, but they are successful in covering their tracks to avoid mass public outrage. We're slowly growing, but hopefully it's not too little, too late.

I think we as a group need to continue to be vigilant and not succumb to any compromise in any form. The OBL will not compromise and neither will we. Don't let these creeps, these blackhearts in empty suits/skirts in government who have been bought and paid off destroy our country. Don't be satisfied with a couple of minor victories.

I also think we should be open to all discussions and ideas as long as it doesn't promote violence and hatred toward any race in particular and I don't think Patriots post advocated any of that.

Just my two cents!

Like dman, I'm entering the discussion a little late. And with great respect and admiration, I ditto dman's post. Very well thought out and written - and a legitimate answer to Patriotman's open request for a critique.

Patriotman, I HEAR what you're saying. Unfortunately, 95% of the country is not there yet - and may never be there. Look at our collective response to murderous jihadists. Thousands of our innocent citizens were murdered on 9/11. More are killed by homicidal terrorists every day - and yet our media, and our "elite" preach tolerance and understanding at every opportunity. Many Americans would have a hard time working up a modicum of HATE toward an OBVIOUS enemy like the jihadists - much less the millions of "harmless" usurpers among us! It's the passivity and apathy of our fat and happy nation.

We are all on the same side. I see your side and William's as being two very different approaches to the same end goal. I could launch into a dissertation on the history of warfare and the classes of warriors; the success of strategicians like Alexander and the clinical discipline of the Roman legions juxstaposed with the success of the Nordic berserkers, the Celtic she-bears, and the Vikings. But that would interest no one but me, so I'll refrain. :)

Excellent thread, friends.

One last thought, Patriotman. My ALIPAC tag line quote by John Stuart Mills is always in my post signature, but it is not the entire quote. The full quotation is as follows:

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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

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I know that we're not talking about or advocating war, per se. But there is a WAR OF IDEALS going on right now. The inertia of our politicians and the mass majority of Americans is our battle right now, not any particular ethnic group. YOU are the better man than those that are apathetic. It will be YOUR and OUR exertions that keep America free.

SCARECROW wrote

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We will never win the liberal elite, but we can win that great American middle that elected George Bush with the anticipation he would act in our interests. He let them down and his approval numbers are beginning to reflect that. That great rock solid American from the heartland is a traditionalist whether he is a Democrat or Republican. He has grown up steeped in our democratic traditions. We have to respect that and conduct ourselves in a way which will encourage these folks to join us in the fight.

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AGREED :wink:

JUDY please repost the url to MCCAIN/KENNEDY FARCE. I read your original but did miss the url {sorry J}
We all should have this legislation "filed" for ref!

PATRIOTMAN
I've been following here and my 2 cents are: Like many, I immediately jumped and stopped reading after "HATE." The moral is simple, imho. One loses a possible productive base of people when the verbiage is offensive to this degree.

Personally, I happen to agree with you re: negotiations. With this issue the DANGER is in NEGOTIATING and taking LESS THAN is right for our nation.

Also, your strategy for going after the FUNDING to OFFENDING COUNTRIES re: prison expenses is something I've advocated for quite a while. It IS a powerful tool should it be chosen for use.

:arrow: The best way to begin to handle this, again in my opinion, is to set up small committees to work on collecting the specific info related to a specific goal. Without organized info, a plan cannot be enacted.

Suggestion:
BOYCOTT RESTAURANTS {JP's idea}.....doable and needs indepth work

ADVANCE to LEGISLATORS a plan to PULL FUNDING FROM OFFENDING COUNTRIES.....{your idea} .......doable and needs indepth work.

{my 2 cents}

Good stuff and good comments folks. I'm reading it like a hawk and taking notes. :D

W

Well I learned something. When deliberately baiting with hyperbole but the most antagonistic points farther down so at least your general argument is heard before people tune out- LOL!!

To the point, in the past I have used "burning in effigy" to great effect. The key is to have a very scripted delivery. The "press" is always looking for wackos so they show up to anything they think will be a wacko display, when they encounter a group of supporters dressed in suits who do not shout, who do not speak out, and only state in unison an affirmation of the talk points recited by the designated speaker, they simply are dumbfounded and report on the substance of the issue and not the ridiculous display they originally showed up to see. Burning anything in a mob environment conveys exactly the vision many of you have, doing the same thing in a calculating, unemotional manner provides a chilling contrast that is very compelling. It shows an orchestration that is rather unsettling to bureaucrats as they realize they are not dealing with emotional wackos but rather calculating professionals.

The point of burning in effigy is punctuate the acceptable conditions by pointing out the chilling alternative, more to the point it serves to bring the press out.

And with this I draw this to a close, to the leaders of this movement I can only say, plan, plan, replan, and develop contingencies. You should be able to mobilize a dozens different scenarios throughout the country in a matter of days.

I bid you peace,

Patriotman

The main issue i have with burning in effigy, and burning of flags, is that most americans are used to seeing this, and seeing it directed at US. I think such images generate a visceral negative reaction among most americans which is directed at those doing the act.. irrregardless of the cause or side they are on.

To me, such acts are similar to throwing the race bomb when your arguements and reasoning fails you in debate. They have no reasoned value and play strictly upon emotion... in this case, probably not to our benefit.

JMO

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The main issue i have with burning in effigy

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My reply:

I guess I just have fond memories of our Founding Father's doing so. Have you ever been to Colonial Williamsburg and witnessed the one they do there? Rather dramatic. I think it is preceded by a Thomas Paine speech.

Patriotman

take it from an insider who knows what moves Congress:
from Newt Gingrich's Victory in NH website:
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As a precursor to meeting privately with members of the Victory NH Network, Newt penned the following exclusive essay...

Citizen Activism: The Key to Winning the Future
by Newt Gingrich


I wrote Winning the Future to outline the next wave or reform that this country will need in the next ten to twenty years to remain the richest, most powerful, and most successful nation on the planet in the 21st Century. And while I have made it a point to talk to as many of my colleagues in Washington about these issues as I can, I know that no amount of discussion inside the beltway can replace what I will be doing this Monday and Tuesday in New Hampshireâ€â€