Thread: Desire your critique

Originally Posted by patriotman

Somehow I suspect some of you failed to read the qualifer that states:

I have nothing against people of Mexican heritage who renounce

However I did ask for critique and now I am getting it, so the thread is serving its intended purpose.

Patriotman

I saw it, but it comes across as rather thin when compared to burning illegal aliens in effigy. Very strong in rhetoric and anger.. weak on logical statements with which we gain support of the public.

Patriotman,

I just think we should all leave the word hate out of our posts. I know the anger is rising and many of us consider our mission to be a race against time before things really go over the edge in this country.

Most of us may indeed be misguided with our letters and faxes to congress. The elections we hope to sway could already be rigged for all we know, but we must have hope and do all that we can to rectify this imbalance peacefully.

It's up to all of us to keep the tone and language as calm as possible. Passionate yes, hateful no. There are others that are very angry and we need to gather them, train them for political fighting, and channel that anger into the proper messages and methods.

W

I don't hate Mexican's I have even met a few I liked. I have depended on some Mexican legals and Puerto Rican's to watch my back in a few tight spots during my life. Heck, I don't hate the VC now.
Once you have let hate of an enemy or a problem take over you have lost.
I am totally against the illegal invasion of our country but I don't hate the invaders. I try to understand them, the way they think and why they are coming here. Then I will deal with the problem the best way I can.
You have to be careful about old hate cause he will eat you from the inside out like a cancer. It's hard not to hate when you see something you hold dearly being destoryed, I know I've been there.

If you have to hate anyone thats not 100% American I guess that would included me, Scotch/Irish, small bit English and some Tuscarora. But I am an American just like that legal Mexican and the Puerto Rican from NY I served with. We served under the same flag and will have the same respect as any other American.

William is absolutely right. We must contain our growing rage and channel it into constructive activity. Let's reserve our hate for the concept of the criminality of illegal immigration, not the immigrants themselves. Were I in their position and had no better options, I might try to do the same thing they are doing. Most of them are not evil, even though they have violated the law.

If we play up the hatred angle, then the charge of xenophobia has legs. I think the minutemen were the perfect example of how to handle yourself in this situation. They peacefully conducted their protest through the border watch and, try as they might, the media could not pin anything negative on them except for the guy who had the illegal pose with a t-shirt (wow, what a criminal act).

Having said all this, I have as much rage as the next person and I have vented it a few times in this forum. That's fine as long as we are only communicating with each other. It is when the information is tapped for public distribution that it becomes a major problem.

I have always followed politics and have voted in all the elections. I have never before joined a political action group of any kind before this. Despite my degree in Poli Sci and History and a ton of life and business experience, I am still a neophyte when it comes to this sort of thing. This is too important for us to foul it up in any way. We must act with passion combined with intelligence. It is going to be hard enough to wake America up to the danger. It will be impossible if we fly into a foaming at the mouth rage. We will be marginalized as fanatics, when in fact we are just deeply concerned American citizens. We must do this right.

Henceforth, I will try to take my own advice.

weak on logical statements with which we gain support of the public.

This is an excellent point. I still contend the basic idea is good (i.e. a very strong message, that invokes the image of POTENTIAL conflict, but does not resort to any, and is very, very orderly and restrained in the execution of the message) but the delivery of the message needs word-smithing.

Once again I'll contend(you can check previous posts on this) that most of "you/us/the movement" are being "played". As I have said all you are doing is negotiating the terms of your surrender. And the only way I see around that is to send a very, very strong message. Consider what just happened with the Border Patrol supposedly being told not to apprehend illegal aliens...I did not hear a very large outcry. My guess is "the movement" is being measured. And I bet the read on it is "if we give these guys a few 'victories' (i.e the REAL ID act and a few others yet to come) we can drag them all to the table to negotiate that which never should be negotiated in the first place and that is going to consist of some form of amnesty and guest worker (amnesty in disguise) program that includes family reunification (cultural genocide by the way).

The above is why I started this thread. I hope the “organizations that be� are on the up and up and their operatives wise up to the fact they are being "played". This then is my contribution to this movement. Wise up folks...it looks to me like the enemy is probing your lines and currently testing your strength. A victory on REAL ID and nearly simultaneous probe on the results of the Minute Man project. "I" use these tactics all the time when negotiating large business contracts to determine how much I have to give up and how much I can take.

By the by, I would love to be wrong. But then again Chris Simcox started this all out by stating he thinks we need a guest worker program and that he believes we "need" cheap foreign labor...to me that was starting from a position of weakness. You have to question what you are truly going to "gain" when you already have surrendered the game before you engaged in your first skirmish. This is what I mean by negotiating the terms of your surrender.

Patriotman

As I have said all you are doing is negotiating the terms of your surrender.

Patriotman, I don't think any of us sees it that way. I certainly don't. This may be a battle, but it is political and not military for now. We are fighting on several fronts, the most important of which is as someone said, "for the hearts and minds of the American people."

We will never win the liberal elite, but we can win that great American middle that elected George Bush with the anticipation he would act in our interests. He let them down and his approval numbers are beginning to reflect that. That great rock solid American from the heartland is a traditionalist whether he is a Democrat or Republican. He has grown up steeped in our democratic traditions. We have to respect that and conduct ourselves in a way which will encourage these folks to join us in the fight.

Perception can be more important than reality. The news media tried to make the Minutemen look like armed vigilantes. How many shots of their side arms did you see? Even on Fox News, every clip had the camera panning down to someone's automatic on their hip. They will not hesitate to do the same to us. If we act too radically, they will put us in the same category with the KKK and the Nazis.

I admire you passion and you have provoked a lot of thought with your post. I hope you channel that fire into the most productive activity possible.

Patriotman,

you also lost me after the first paragraph. Then as I read down, I saw your comments and decided to re-read your post. I have to agree with William on this one,

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

I just think we should all leave the word hate out of our posts. I know the anger is rising and many of us consider our mission to be a race against time before things really go over the edge in this country.

W

We must take the high road on this. You cannot make a second first impression. People new to this site might be turned off by the way it was written.

JMO, I could be wrong.

Patriotman, I don't think any of us sees it that way.

That is too bad. Because if you do not plainly see it, then you have already lost, and like I said you are now negotiating the terms of your surrender. Like I said, McCain and Kennedy proposed a ridiculous bill, which is a tactic. And your line was just probed. Expect a few more radical bills, and a few ones that look like a victory, and then the compromise will begin. But note, you do not have to negotiate anything, if you simply stand with the rule of law. But this is being positioned that you have to compromise on the rule of law. If you buy that, which many of you have, then you have already lost.

Since it appears you have no stomach for more “base� offensives may I suggest a flank attack that will at least give this “movement� parity? The various State moves to deny illegal aliens social services is very good, however the pile of cash pouring to nations like Mexico makes a very palatable target. Make a play to deduct the cost of incarcerating foreign national from any financial aid to other countries. At least then you have a chip to negotiate with at the table (there are others) and you’ll force the opposition to expend resources covering your move.

Regards,

Patriotman

Patriotman--A few thoughts of mine. My advice would be to go back and edit your post and remove those phrases that come across different than how you really feel overall. What you are suggesting is a protest to draw attention to the issue of how many in America feel about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION beause of all the problems this is causing our Nation.

Right now, the influx from Mexico is one of the biggest problem areas because of the numbers. All ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is undesired, unwanted and needs to stop...so we can get a handle on whether or not any more Legal Immigration is even needed at this time.

You are right in your statement that we are being "played". At least I feel that way. BUT, we will take what we can get and then keep working to get more through the legislative process. The McCain Kennedy Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act is a JOKE!! I posted the entire 150 pages a day or two ago with comments. I don't know how many people have had a chance to read it...but it is nothing more than a Fake Act NOT TO ACT....to legalize everyone here now with no restrictions of any kind on continuing illegal immigration over the borders or anywhere else!!

A protest is a good idea! And I know that in the world of protests they make signs and burn flags and have dramatic statements to make their point. As you know, protestors have been hard at work in the USA for many years with marches, protests, and so forth.

I'm not personally against any of the people who are guilty of illegal immigration. I just want them deported in accordance with our Rule of Law because they do not have the legal right to be here and should have been deported years ago.

I AM against those who have allowed it; who have aided it and abetted it; underwritten it; advocated it; profitted from it; and who are using it to change the political power of the United States to end the United States.

I AM against those who have taken jobs from Americans; deflated our wages and salaries; reduced our standard of living; crowded our schools, hospitals, highways, housing, stores; and hurt our People through rapes, robberies, assaults, murders, terror, and mutilations.

I AM against everyone in our Government who has sat down on the job; turned a blind eye to our law; turned their back on American Citizens they are paid to represent and protect; watched without any concern or compassion, the rapes, robberies, assaults, murders, terror, and multilations and all the other socio-economic consequences of their failure to enforce US Immigration Laws, US Labor Laws and US Civil Rights Laws.

These traitors have already changed our country in such a way that it will take years to undo the damage. That burden will fall on our children who may or may not be prepared to deal with it....which is why we must do it now.

This is the United States and We are the Americans, the most generous, most compassionate Nation on Earth with Each Other and Other Nations.

But, we are not silly....and do not have the right to sell out our country or American Citizens by laying down on our job....which is to protect our Nation from harm and destruction. Those who think they have the right to give something that does not belong to them to someone else free of charge are wrong plain and simple....they are violators of American Law, violators of Trust, violators of Oaths of Office, violators of Tax Exempt Status under IRS Code, violators of the US Constitution, violators of Immigration Law, violators of Labor Law and violators of Civil Rights Law.

The anger and frustration you feel is at these Institutions, the Invidivuals Operating Within Them AND the illegal aliens benefitting from these acts of abandonment of law and illegal advocacy of illegal aliens.

For example, it was disclosed by Bill O'Reilly today that the AMERICAN CATHOLIC BISHOPS of the CATHOLIC CHURCH are ADVOCATING:

1) legalization of all illegals

2) open borders

3) MORE development in developing countries

4) family reunification within the US

4) etc.

This is a legal political issue....has NOTHING to do with RELIGION!!

The Catholic Church operates financially in the United States as a religious organization....i. e. to save souls, take confessions, deliver Mass, and collect money...yes?

All the TIME and MONEY they spend on advocating, hiring big expensive spokesmans in normal suit attire to spread their political agenda through the nation's airwaves on Bill O'Reilly is a NON-RELIGIOUS ACTIVITY.

All the TIME and MONEY they spent on travel for their "meeting", every single dime that was and has been spent on the advocacy of illegal aliens in the United States was money wronfully spent by the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church can't even "manage" its priests sexual conduct, yet it has the AUDACITY to think we give a HOOT about what IT thinks should be done in the United States with regards to illegal aliens and all those participating in this criminal illegal immigraton activity in the United States.

Listen Up, Bishops, WE DON'T GIVE A HOOT WHAT YOU THINK!!

And what's more, I'll bet the vast majority of your parishioners don't care either. Your job is to save souls, take confessions, deliver a Mass, and collect money.

My advice to Catholics who are opposed to illegal immigration....hold back the money until the church refocuses on its duty to you.

Patriotman....direct your frustration and anger to the INSTITUTIONS and Leaders of those Institutions!!

They are all Houses of Cards....and Ready to Fall Flat on Their Faces.

In my opinion, its okay to be upset with illegal aliens too....but on something as huge as this is....it's more productive to discredit and shut down the Networks, the Advocacy Groups, the Sponsors, the Lawmakers turned Lawbreakers, the Elected, Appointed, and Employed Traitors in our Government....who have systematically built a:

Pipeline for Illegal Immigration

Shutdown the Pipeline.....Shutdown Illegal Immigration

Patriotman,

We have done pretty good with our moves so far all things considered. The strength of this organization is growing and many of the people on these forums are big cause of that.

We have played a critical role in what is happening and the information found in these forums and on this site is assisting Americans that are waking up on this issue.

I think somewhere between 30-70 thousand pages of material are now read on this site per day. We always must keep in mind as best we can where the American mindset is at.

Many of them still have no clue how bad things are and how bad they will get should we fail.

As far as a strategy and response to the news out of AZ about the Border Patrol, Im trying to work on that.

What you may see as a slow response can be a combination of things. One, everyone that knows me knows I like to plan a strategy out before execution. When I hit the switch, I want it to fly.

Secondly, we are doing damn good considering nobody has been paid and we have been fighting battles left and right.

Taking down those billboards was not easy. Knocking back the in-state tuition bill in NC was not easy. A lot of people put in a lot of time and all nighters to make those happen.

Let's face it, we are getting close to the higher political battles now. We will have to take on the Congress to block amnesty and have our shot in 06 elections. We may have to take on the President and the Associated Press.

Our entire movement is still a little dog compared to the money, power, and resources each of those groups have at their disposal.

We must chose our battles. We must use high strategy. We must be very careful in what we do and when.

We are NOT negotiating our surrender. We are taking our country back.

I know the speech Patriotman. Some people want to say because the language is not strong enough or the move is not of their chosing etc.. that it is a sign of weakness or cowardice and none of that applies to the people I know in ALIPAC.

As for Simcox, I really he hope he did not say that mess. If he did, then he can deal with the fallout from the movement.

Me, no guest worker program. We already have one, its called a green card and you should have it before you enter.

People that speak softly and caclulate their moves are the most formidable opponents you will ever see in action and many times you will never see them at all.

W