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Thread: NRA officials split with Trump on wisdom of arming club-goers

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  1. #1
    Senior Member JohnDoe2's Avatar
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    NRA officials split with Trump on wisdom of arming club-goers

    NRA officials split with Trump on wisdom of arming club-goers

    By Tom LoBianco, CNN
    Updated 1:34 PM ET, Sun June 19, 2016

    Washington (CNN)Top National Rifle Association officials split Sunday with Donald Trump's position that armed club-goers are a good idea.

    "I don't think you should have firearms where people are drinking," said Wayne LaPierre, the NRA's chief executive officer said on CBS' "Face the Nation." "But I will tell you this. Everybody, every American starts to have -- needs to start having a security plan. We need to be able to protect ourselves, because they're coming. And they're going for vulnerable spots, and this country needs to realize it."

    NRA lobbyist Chris Cox told ABC's "This Week": "No one thinks that people should go into a nightclub drinking and carrying firearms. That defies common sense. It also defies the law. It's not what we're talking about here."

    Trump had said Friday at a rally that armed club-goers shooting Omar Mateen "would have been a beautiful, beautiful sight."

    "If we had people, where the bullets were going in the opposite direction, right smack between the eyes of this maniac," Trump said, gesturing between his eyes.

    "And this son of a b---- comes out and starts shooting and one of the people in that room happened to have (a gun) and goes boom. You know what, that would have been a beautiful, beautiful sight, folks."


    The latest split comes as Trump has requested a meeting with NRA leaders to discuss banning gun sales to people on the federal terror watch list and no-fly list.


    LaPierre also said Sunday that banning sales to those on the watch list would not have had any effect in Orlando because Omar Mateen had already been removed from the list.


    "NRA didn't take the guy's name off the list. The federal government did, FBI did, largely because of these some politically correct policies that I think I have been talking about earlier," LaPierre said on CBS' "Face the Nation."


    The NRA's push comes as senators prepare to vote on a series of measures which would limit sales to suspected terrorists. Opponents of the measures argue that federal watch lists are wrought with errors and could deprive citizens of their constitutional right to bear arms.


    "The problem is, you have got indications on this list of people who might be involved in terrorism," Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Alabama, told CNN's Dana Bash on "State of the Union." "And we need to keep a list of that, need to do the best we can to monitor those people, so that they don't become an active terrorist person. But a lot of people may be wrongly on the list.

    In fact, I'm sure there are a lot of people on that list that shouldn't be on it."

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/19/politi...ing/index.html

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    Moderator Beezer's Avatar
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    I don't think guns and booze are a good idea. Why not just charge a "cover charge" to enter the club that covers the expenses of having an armed guard on hand. And get a metal detector to walk through.

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    Senior Member JohnDoe2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
    I don't think guns and booze are a good idea. Why not just charge a "cover charge" to enter the club that covers the expenses of having an armed guard on hand. And get a metal detector to walk through.
    There was an armed off duty Orlando police officer at the front door to prevent unwanted people from entering. The gunman had a shootout with him. The cop had a pistol, the gunman had an AR-15 that let him shoot his way into the club. The cop called for police backup and the S.W.A.T. TEAM.
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    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Okay, lets face it. The set-up at the Pulse didn't work.

    1. They checked for guns until 2 am, then stop. If it's a gun free zone, you check for guns until the doors close.
    2. One armed security guard distracted by another issue out front, left the door open for the armed gunman to enter.
    3. There was someone inside blocking one of the entrances that prevented many from escaping earlier.
    4. No one else had a gun because of the gun free zone.
    5. The result of all of this, is there was only 1 man in the room with a gun and it was a terrorist.

    Each establishment will need to decide for themselves what is best for their situation, but I think the promotion or advertisement of "gun free zones" or policies that announce to the world no one has a gun here, is a bad policy, it makes the place a target without adequate armed security to offset an attack.

    There should also be plenty of exits well lit with the automatic push bar for people to flee out of.

    But in spite of all of that, the main flub in this case was removing the terrorist from the Terror Watch List, that enabled him to make the gun purchases without any notification to the FBI or local authorities. I'm not on the side of preventing the gun purchase, but I am on the side of keeping notification to the FBI of gun purchases even after someone who was legitimately on the Terror Watch List is removed for some reason. It's a Watch List. It means "watch", not deny freedoms, not harm, not arrest, it means "watch". If someone had been watching him, they would have already nabbed him when he tried to buy the body armor in West Palm Beach, they would have had cause to get his phone and find out who his accomplices were from the phone calls he made in that store. They would have had cause to saerch his home and other properties, interview his relatives, friends, check his bank accounts, travel history, phone calls and so much more.

    That all said, we can not, absolutely can not, set up "gun free zones" unless there is multiple armed security guards capable of dealing immediately with a shooter without citizen help. "Gun free zone" is an advertisement to mass shooters and terrorists that they're the only ones in the room with a gun. If they have reason to believe there could be 5 to 10 to even 20 or more citizens with guns in that room or building, the cowards aren't going to risk it. These are cowards carefully selecting targets they know to be unarmed. If they don't know whether they are or not the only person with a gun or have good cause to think some or many may be armed in that location, these chicken crap cowards won't select that target and not being a target is the first step to not being the victim of a terrorist or mass shooter attack, or so it seems to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
    I don't think guns and booze are a good idea. Why not just charge a "cover charge" to enter the club that covers the expenses of having an armed guard on hand. And get a metal detector to walk through.
    I agree that a mix of guns and alcohol is not a good idea. Based on the number of people at this club it sounds like 3 or 4 armed security guards were needed, not just one. In my opinion, this is simply a case of not enough firepower to adequately secure the area in an emergency situation.

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    Senior Member JohnDoe2's Avatar
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    NRA's LaPierre: Trump Wrong, Shouldn't Have Firearms in Bars


    NRA Executive Vice President and CEO Wayne LaPierre (Alex Wong/Getty Images)


    By Cathy Burke |
    Sunday, 19 Jun 2016 12:55 PM


    National Rifle Association executive Wayne LaPierre on Sunday disputed Donald Trump's assertion that people in bars should be allowed to carry guns – and would have been able to fight back against ISIS-inspired mass slayer Omar Mateen.

    In an interview Sunday on CBS News' "Face the Nation," the executive vice president and chief executive officer of the gun rights advocacy group warned "We need to face what's coming" from ISIS terrorists.

    "They're not going to attack hard targets," he said. "They're going for vulnerabilities. they're going to go for shopping malls, they're going to go for churches. The fact is, we need vigilance, we need preparedness, we need a full court press on personal protection."

    When pressed about Trump's advocacy of bar patrons being allowed to carry weapons, LaPierre disagreed.

    "I don't think we should have firearms where people are drinking," he said. "But I'll tell you this, everybody needs … to start having a security plan. We need to be able to protect ourselves because they're coming."


    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/nra...#ixzz4C4Gkr35d

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    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    "I don't think we should have firearms where people are drinking," he said. "But I'll tell you this, everybody needs … to start having a security plan. We need to be able to protect ourselves because they're coming."
    Yeah, that all sounds good and makes a lot of sense on the surface. But the fact is a civilian walked into that nightclub with a hand gun and an AR-15 and tried to murder over 100 people. He succeeded in killing 49 and injuring 53 more. Only 1 armed security guard who was outside dealing with a drunk wanting to drive home or something like that and the shooter walks right in to a room of 320 unarmed sitting ducks. Bartenders could have had guns, servers and waiters could have had guns, licensed concealed carry permit holders could have had guns. Designated drivers could have had guns. Bouncers could have had guns. I mean there were quite a few people in that place who were not drinking because they were working or designated drivers or licensed carriers who know their limits.

    They target the places where they know or believe there are no guns. That's why the places are selected and the people targeted to begin with. Terrorists are cowards, but they aren't stupid. Same with mass shooters.
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    City officials mull security measures after recent nightclub shootings


    CAPTIONPulse shooting victim reunites with man who saved his life

    Elyssa Cherney and Christal Hayes Contact Reporters

    Pulse Orlando massacre follows high-profile shootings inside Orlando clubs



    City officials, local business owners and witnesses grappled Monday over whether tighter security, especially metal detectors, could have helped thwart Sunday’s early morning attack on a nightclub in Orlando.

    Police Chief John Mina said he has been advocating for clubs to install metal detectors, wand patrons and pat down partygoers well before the deadliest shooting in U.S. history unfolded in Pulse.


    “That message has been clear for the past two-to-three years,” he said.


    Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who in December considered a task force to examine the impact of nightclubs on public safety, said he didn’t know if metal detectors could have stopped Omar Mateen from smuggling an assault rifle and handgun into the venue, citing reports he may have scaled a fence to enter the club.

    Their remarks also follow two other recent nightclub shootings in Orlando, which left four dead, including former “The Voice" contestant Christina Grimmie, and 10 injured.

    Referring to Pulse, Dyer said, “This will certainly add to the equation, and it’ll be a case study for us to look at moving forward.”


    Christina Grimmie: 'We lost a beautiful soul'

    Patrons question security
    Christopher Hansen strode into a dimly lit gay nightclub blasting Latino music early Sunday morning, noticing security guards scattered throughout the dance floor, but said he didn’t get patted down or wanded like he does at airports.

    “There [were] no metal detectors, no bag checks,” said Hansen, 32, who had never been there before. “Honestly, I don't know if that would have helped. There was so much gunfire. The shooting wouldn't stop.”


    Hansen’s experience getting into Pulse before the shooting mirrors witness accounts in two other fatal shootings inside Orlando clubs this year.


    PICTURE GALLERY: Orlando police responded to a mass shooting at Pulse nightclub south of downtown on June 12, 2016.

    On Feb. 7, a gang feud escalated into a shooting at Glitz Ultra Lounge near International Drive, killing two people and injuring 10 others when 300 came for a reggaeton-themed party.

    In both the Pulse and Glitz shootings, venues employed security teams and off-duty Orlando police officers.


    Two days before the Pulse shooting, a 27-year-old St. Petersburg man armed with two guns killed singer Grimmie as she signed autographs after a concert at The Plaza Live.


    Mackenzie Bearup, 23, was in line to meet Grimmie when the shots rang out Friday inside the Plaza Live. She remembers seeing Grimmie’s brother, Marcus, tackle the shooter and credits him with saving her life.


    “I don’t understand how they wouldn’t let us in with bottles of water but this man was able to get two guns inside,” she said. “This has to spark some sort of change. It just has to.”


    She said a security guard was quickly checking bags but there were no pat downs or metal detectors present.


    The Orlando Police Department is reviewing the Plaza Live’s procedures, according to said R.K. Kelley, incoming president of the board of directors at the Orlando Philharmonic Orchestra, which owns the Plaza Live.


    The night of Grimmie’s shooting, guards checked everyone’s bags and patted down anyone wearing a large coat or jacket, who needed to open the garment for inspection. Some individuals also received pat-downs, Kelley said.


    Security measures at the venue vary depending on the nature of the show – a pop concert versus an opera, for example – and the size of the crowd, Kelley, said.


    ‘We have to make choices’


    Cynthia Harris, a security consultant for a national firm, echoed the need for specialized security measures at venues depending on their history of crime and type of event.


    “Having metal detectors in every bar in Orlando would not be a reasonable approach,” said Harris, of THG Consultants in Georgia and Florida.


    She said New York City is among the only areas she knows of to have guidelines for nightlife security, spurred by a number of high-profile killings and violent crimes at nightclubs.


    The guidelines recommend a ratio of one security guard to every 75 patrons and say cameras should be at front and back doors along with in bathrooms.


    In Orlando, the city’s study into downtown clubs is ongoing and extends beyond gun violence. The task force proposal was included in an ordinance establishing a moratorium on after-hours nightclubs.


    Dyer said the review examines myriad issues, “everything from how to increase live music, to how we increase the safety for patrons.”


    Local business owners agreed safety is foremost and anticipated a continuing dialogue over safety measures.


    Attorney Mark NeJame, who has owned a handful of entertainment venues in Florida, including downtown Orlando’s The Beachem, said club owners may also face difficulties if metal detectors create long lines and bad user experiences, cutting into profits.


    “We have to make choices because the reality is, the world has changed,” he said. “So many targets have been nightclubs because that’s where there’s a high concentration of people gathered.”

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/nra.../19/id/734586/

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  9. #9
    Senior Member JohnDoe2's Avatar
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    If they have more security at clubs and bars gunmen will hit churches, schools, hospitals, shopping centers, etc. There are lots of soft targets.
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    It is just another poorly thought out suggestion to a very complicated problem.

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