Thread: Legal immigration

Originally Posted by butterbean

#2 - It looks as though you either overstayed your visa or our crappy system lost you somehow. The bottom line is you don't belong in the U.S. legally and need to leave.

Sigh.

I am a legal worker who has applied for legal immigration. I have neither overstayed my stay nor has the crappy system "lost me" somehow. I am a law abiding resident, thank you.

But to both of your points, enforcing the law, if the law is reasonable, should be the primary goal. I agree that if the law is broken action must be taken. And that action must be reasonable and fair.

I am not for illegal immigration nor am I against it. I am neutral on the subject as I do not have all the data on that matter. This thread was primarily about legal immigration and not illegal immigration.

P.S: Sorry if this was off-topic. I wrote my reply and edited it later as it seemed too harsh to your response. If you had read my previous post, I did not mean to put it that way.

[quote=Once_A_Democrat]

Originally Posted by NikeshRam

Originally Posted by Once_A_Democrat":39dqc3sl]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
The US does NOT need more legal high tech workers - H1b's or others.
IT's all a scam and well known

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR9QdQIKqMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR9QdQIKqMc[/url]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Tsqk6jJoY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGmzlDsnL3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iqMYG9efzE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL_fTICwFCA

This is the most contentious topic and has been for a while, not because the facts are not there, but primarily because some of the facts are construed. .[/quote]

The facts were construed before but now they are well known that the visa program was a scam and everybody now knows it.

[/quote:39dqc3sl]

As I have said before, while I understand that there are some cases where temporary workers are used selfishly by some companies, I personally have not encountered them. I personally think the government should target the companies and not the temporary workers if this were to be the case.

That said, it is unfair to wrongly categorize all temporary workers as taking away american jobs and lowering wages.

I have advanced degrees and the experience that very few have in the area of my expertise. I have been paid well, significantly well and am not aware of any adverse treatment for me being a temporary worker.

So I think the system works for some and not for others. If anything, the government should focus on making the laws fairer such that honest, specialized workers like me are not adversely affected by it.

Nikesh - and others...

OK, well, let me jump in here to add a few things that might have gone unsaid for whatever reason..

1. Welcome aboard.

2. It sounds as though you are here currently under a valid H1b? Is that correct?

3. I think, that both in general, and specific to our forum, Americans welcome legal immigrants. However, let me more carefully parse and explain the choice of words here - as the details are important.

Legal Immigration <> Guest or Temporary Workers. These are two different categories of persons gaining entrance under two very different permissions officially here (I realize you know this, but I'm just reiterating the obvious in case any onlookers aren't aware of this...). Of course, as you are aware, being a Temporary or Guest Worker does not qualify a non-national to be included into the 'immigration' application track be default. That is a separate process, requiring many additional legal, processing steps, etc. (I do know someone well that had fully completed the process - about a 10 yr time frame in total).

Anyway, one of the significant problems with our current immigration 'system' in general (read mostly the USCIS here), is that the system has lost most or all of it's integrity. In fact, not only can they not adequately track immigration applications, in some cases, they have lost thousands of application files, lost (eg. do not know the true residence or location) of non-nationals, etc. One of the very large problems that folks here are aware of, and keen to point out, is, the extremely large number of persons that entered the country on a legitimate work, student, or even tourist visa and then later overstayed that legal authorization. It is estimated (the most recent stats I've seen published by the USCIS) estimates that about 40%-45% of the persons illegally in the US fall into the category I described above. In addition, there are estimated to be about 500k-600k persons still in the US after a valid H1b or other work-related visa has expired. Many of them continue to stay and even work here. Of course, I know you aren't doing such thing - but many non-nationals continue to remain illegally and work here and it is a very big concern for us.

Now, as far as your discontent with the system and it's inability to move faster... Well, here you're probably not going to like my response. But, as I mention above, I know someone with a comparable education /professional background, and they too, had to 'wait in line' and jump the appropriate hurdles and endure the 10-yr long process. In the end, this person did and is now glad and proud to be called a US Naturalized Citizen.
I'd just like to suggest to look at the problem in 180 degree reverse terms... if we made the process quick and easy for anyone that wanted to apply, how many persons do you think would eventually come here? And, let me ask the question which goes unasked too often... If everyone that wanted to come here actually did, what would life be like here? (eg. we cannot - even if we wanted to - accommodate all the people that want to come here, we can't it is not possible).

Anyway, having said all the above, I do wish you luck in following through with your application process.

Originally Posted by PhredE

Now, as far as your discontent with the system and it's inability to move faster... Well, here you're probably not going to like my response. But, as I mention above, I know someone with a comparable education /professional background, and they too, had to 'wait in line' and jump the appropriate hurdles and endure the 10-yr long process. In the end, this person did and is now glad and proud to be called a US Naturalized Citizen.
I'd just like to suggest to look at the problem in 180 degree reverse terms... if we made the process quick and easy for anyone that wanted to apply, how many persons do you think would eventually come here? And, let me ask the question which goes unasked too often... If everyone that wanted to come here actually did, what would life be like here? (eg. we cannot - even if we wanted to - accommodate all the people that want to come here, we can't it is not possible).

PhredE, thanks for your response. With all fairness to the American government and it's form of democracy, the people are what made this country what it is today! I am not just saying this because I live in the US or that I have a need to immigrate here. I am just trying to live my life in a way that is most helpful to people around me.

One has to look only at the past hundred years during which there has been a flood of immigrants; look at the number of innovations and progress that the country itself has made. It is immense. The 1850's to now has been a tremendously productive, but yet, violent period where this country and others have gone through turbulent times.

That said, I will point out again, that the numbers you are referring to and the category where I fit in, is so extremely small that I would question how adversely this would affect the country in the coming years. Remember, I have been here in this country for quite sometime already. I will have to invest in more than 10 years of my work life in this country to become a legal immigrant. This was not the case when I came into the country nor was it the case when I sent in my immigrant application. The system has only recently broken down with backlogs and as a result this has left quite a few people in my situation dangling without hope.

Here is a different view altogether. I would question where the world is going. The worlds population is growing and it appears that there is little anyone can do to prevent it (although governments in China and India are trying their best to curb it). The concept of a country, being a walled garden is itself questionable. Would it still be the case after 200 years? Or would it only lead to more wars? I think the world will have to begin to think like one, if we were to make amends to all the mistakes we've made in the past. Most think only about the very near future. Imagine! http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

America's work visa system is a joke.I don't blame the whole world for wanting to come here on a "temporary" work visa but the sad truth is that it is often said that there is nothing more permanent than a temporary worker on a HB1 visa.Greedy corporations pretend that there are no qualified American workers so that foreign workers can be imported to work at lower wages.Often the American worker is required to train the HB1 worker to do his job then the American is laid off.This is a rotten system and is not fair to American college educated people that are now seeing their high paid technical jobs disappear overseas or go to "temporary" HB1 visa workers.The unfairness extends to the visa holder that is exploited at a lower wage and many think that as a HB1 visa holder there is a quicker pathway to citizenship.These visas are supposed to be for temporary workers that will go home at the expiry date.I doubt that very many actually do.As we know the government is seeking the 600,000 or so that they KNOW are overstayers.

Nikesram & Gingersnaps Thank both of you for answering my questions.

The real problem I have with some HB workers - teachers - RN's is that our country is capable of educating our own workers to do these jobs, even if we really did have a shortage. It isn't that we do not have enough people and that we are not capable of learning.

There was a recent article in Newsweek or Time or one of those news magazines about the lack of schools in the US for educating RN's and Americans were having to go out of the country to get the training.

When Prs. Clinton was in office, there was a proposal, don't know if it happened, that the government pay medical schools to NOT educate doctors. The idea was we had too many doctors.

As for teachers - a very affluent school district in this country was having some money problems a few years back. Their solution - force all teachers eligible for retirement to retire, force all eligible for early retirement to retire and hire teachers from India.

This is insanity and is destructive to our country.

There was a time in this country when we needed people in a certain field and there was a shortage, industry and the government worked together to get those people educated and prepared. That's not the way it is today.

But to both of your points, enforcing the law, if the law is reasonable, should be the primary goal. I agree that if the law is broken action must be taken. And that action must be reasonable and fair.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I have a problem with the statement of 'enforcing the law - if it is reasonable'. We, in this country, are bound by our laws - reasonable or not. If unreasonable, we seek to fix it through the process set out in our constitution. At least that's the way it should be.

If that sounds harsh, I'm sorry, but you see we hear the proponents of illegal immigration on a daily, hourly basis, telling us our laws are unreasonable and therefore they should not be bound by them. That angers me. We, in America, are bound by our laws -

Originally Posted by nntrixie

Nikesram & Gingersnaps Thank both of you for answering my questions.

The real problem I have with some HB workers - teachers - RN's is that our country is capable of educating our own workers to do these jobs, even if we really did have a shortage. It isn't that we do not have enough people and that we are not capable of learning.

There was a recent article in Newsweek or Time or one of those news magazines about the lack of schools in the US for educating RN's and Americans were having to go out of the country to get the training.

When Prs. Clinton was in office, there was a proposal, don't know if it happened, that the government pay medical schools to NOT educate doctors. The idea was we had too many doctors.

As for teachers - a very affluent school district in this country was having some money problems a few years back. Their solution - force all teachers eligible for retirement to retire, force all eligible for early retirement to retire and hire teachers from India.

This is insanity and is destructive to our country.

There was a time in this country when we needed people in a certain field and there was a shortage, industry and the government worked together to get those people educated and prepared. That's not the way it is today.

I would revisit the laws to see what is broken in this case. I am all for Americans to take these jobs -- in fact, that would prevent giving H1B's false hopes. Rightfully, some leaders have already tried to address education separately. I am more than happy if my tax dollars go to help education in this country, even if I were to return to my country. After all, I am paying federal and social security taxes even though I do not have a full right (yet) to be a permanent resident in this country.

That said, the world is an extremely competitive and cut-throat place. Companies in other countries are extremely competitive. The concept of globalization and free-trade cannot be reversed. It is important to adapt to the changing times.

America faced similar problems when Japanese auto makers took away jobs. And now, the jobs are coming back. In fact, American auto makers are as competitive or more competitive in the industry than Japanese auto makers today. They offer cheaper, but yet better products.

Remember, America is also taking significant advantage in investing in the global economy. For more refer http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemake ... 030129.htm

But to both of your points, enforcing the law, if the law is reasonable, should be the primary goal. I agree that if the law is broken action must be taken. And that action must be reasonable and fair.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I have a problem with the statement of 'enforcing the law - if it is reasonable'. We, in this country, are bound by our laws - reasonable or not. If unreasonable, we seek to fix it through the process set out in our constitution. At least that's the way it should be.

If that sounds harsh, I'm sorry, but you see we hear the proponents of illegal immigration on a daily, hourly basis, telling us our laws are unreasonable and therefore they should not be bound by them. That angers me. We, in America, are bound by our laws -

I think I should have worded that better. By the statement 'if the law is reasonable', I meant that the law is reasonable within the constructs of the judicial system. There are always different points of view, however, what I meant to say is that there are laws that sometimes were not written for the current times and in some of those cases they have to be re-written.

I was never implying that people obey laws they deem reasonable. That's just a point of view. If a large part of the population thinks that some laws are unreasonable, they will have to go through the normal judicial system to have them changed. That is all I was implying there.

Take for example, the laws introduced to reduce global warming. There is a great example of the system working, albeit it being hard. The laws introduced actually make at least one country prove that they can think out of the box.

Rightfully, some leaders have already tried to address education separately


In what way?

Take for example, the laws introduced to reduce global warming. There is a great example of the system working, albeit it being hard. The laws introduced actually make at least one country prove that they can think out of the box.




I don't really understand what you are saying here and don't want to misinterpret.

NikeshRam:

I crossed the boarder when I was 16 years old. My father had a green card, and my mother was here on an International Student Visa. The American Embassy in Toronto wouldn't let me get any type of legal status in the USA. So I got separated from my family at the boarder. A week later Border Patrol decided that because I'm 16, that technically they can't separate me from my parents. They had to let me across the border. B.P said that I would be under my mother's visa until I turn 21.[/quote]

I have been in this country for about 10 years now and have only lately decided to immigrate to this country. However, there has been significant backlogs in the legal immigration process. Should I have to wait another 10 years before I become a legal immigrant? I like the American way of life and the technological advances that have been made here. But with the way USCIS is structured and given the backlogs, it looks like legal immigration is all but a distant dream. In this global free-trade world, America looks less attractive than other western countries for people like me who are considering immigrating.

That said, I will point out again, that the numbers you are referring to and the category where I fit in, is so extremely small that I would question how adversely this would affect the country in the coming years. Remember, I have been here in this country for quite sometime already. I will have to invest in more than 10 years of my work life in this country to become a legal immigrant. This was not the case when I came into the country nor was it the case when I sent in my immigrant application.

In my case, I chose the one that had the ability to immigrate. I made the mistake of waiting too long to decide whether I wanted to immigrate or not. If I had come to the country with the intent to immigrate, then I would have been an immigrant by this time. Sadly, I had no such intent initially.

I have advanced degrees and the experience that very few have in the area of my expertise. I have been paid well, significantly well and am not aware of any adverse treatment for me being a temporary worker.


So you are saying you were on your mothers international student visa, with a father that had a green card and AFTER 5 years, 21 years of age, you applied for your own immigrant application. Apparently you have been educated in the US, with a college degree I would assume, since you state you are a highly skilled individual. You applied with immigration in mind, but only recently decided you really wanted to immigrate. Can I ask why you waited so long if that was what you applied for?

Also, you had indicated that you were working and being paid very well, was this in the US? Or elsewhere? There is a lot of confusing and conflicting information that you have supplied. I can clarify that since I saw the temporary worker word. You were offered a H-1 Visa from a company while you were applying for your immigrant application. Rather confusing again..........

You have been basically in this country since you were 16 years of age. At 21 you made application for immigration status, despite not knowing if you actually desired such, have worked these past five years on a H-1 visa, and feel that you do not deserve to have to wait any longer for citizenship? Have I finally got this right?


To me it sounds as if you made the application, but have not received any kind of actual legal status in this country, despite being within the country, other than the one supplied while a minor under your mothers international student visa. Correct me if I am wrong in my assumption, as I said there is a lot of confused information presented. Did you at age 21 get some kind of H-1 visa? that would have qualified you to work these past five years after college.

I have neighbors from Scotland, who had to wait many years, and spend a great deal of money for them to get legal immigrant status here.

As it was mentioned before, if citizenship was cheap, why would it hold value? If it is truly something you desire, then whatever wait is worth it.

You seem to be of mixed emotion on this. You don't want to have to wait, you SAY you want citizenship, yet in the next moment you deride the US as if it is something of little value in the "global scheme."

Personally I feel that we have educated you until your majority age, supplied with the credentials that make you feel so superior, and now you deride the very country that supplied you with all this because you may have to wait a while for citizenship?

IMHO, you should go elsewhere. With your vast experience within your field, what is it 5 years? I would think most countries would find you to their liking. I don't think anyone should be in a country that they feel is below their "self" high esteem. You have too many conflicting feelings about this country it seems. Why would you desire citizenship in the very country that you deem teeming with problems? You don't make any sense.
It seems that you think this country is not fit for the likes of you. You also state that if asked you would leave in a minute. That is not citizenship you desire. Nor is that the kind of citizen we desire.

You also state that you know little about the illegal immigration problems in this country so you won't comment on that.. I find this hard to believe since you have been here for at least ten years that you have stated. Sixteen years of age, most people are aware of what is going on, even if they do not take any action on matters.





[quote:1lpccfyb]

[/quote:1lpccfyb]

NikeshRam,

Sorry got two posts confused, guess its time to get some sleep.

But I still feel that you really are conflicted about citizenship.

Once again I apologize for my misstep.