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  1. #31
    Senior Member LegalUSCitizen's Avatar
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    Mr. Left, it is not about a "connection" between "immigrants and murder" it is about mounting statistics that Americans are being needlessly harmed in MANY ways from illegal immigration. American Citizens are being raped, gang raped, murdered, killed in car accidents, robbed and burgalurized by people who are in our country illegally.

    Studies by experts on the problem of illegal immigration regarding the numbers of American Citizens who are being harmed or have been harmed or killed by illegal aliens are being done as we speak. I believe that you will read and hear a LOT more about this in the VERY near future, perhaps in the coming days or weeks.

    Since this is one of the president of ALIPAC's BIGGEST issues regarding illegal immigration, I am sure that he will be able to amply supply you with a LOT of information regarding this.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member LegalUSCitizen's Avatar
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    PhredE's
    Actually, if you bother to research the analogy you so carelessly laid out, you'll see that people with atypical brain chemistry 'issues' are no more likely to commit acts of violence than are those w/o such thing.

    By lumping people into groups as 'schizoid' or 'depressed mothers'...etc. you are labelling such people using deragotory generalizations.
    ...Wow, what an incredible disservice to your fellow humans that suffer mental illnesses. Humans that come from every corner of the world and live in every country. Do some research: www.nami.org

    You can't make an argument against generalizations, by using... generalizations.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Quote Originally Posted by LegalUSCitizen
    Mr. Left's
    Is it fair to say we're more enraged that they're illegal, than that they actually, you know, killed someone?
    YES. It is ABSOLUTELY FAIR to say that we ARE MORE ENRAGED when an ILLEGAL ALIEN kills an American Citizen. If they had not been allowed to enter our country ILLEGALLY the murdered Americans might not, and PROBABLY WOULD NOT have had their right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness taken away from them.

    It IS the job of the president and Congress to uphold all of our laws including immigration laws which exist primarily to protect the safety and well-being of the citizens of the United States.
    I would agree with that... but let's focus on the real issue here... As for the supposed connection between immigration and murder which you say you believe exists... I'd like to see some statistical evidence of that.

    Sure, immigrants who kill American citizens deserve a harsh penalty, to say the least... but how can we make a categorical judgment against those who come here illegally with regard to actual, behavioral, murderous tendencies?
    Mr Leftist, do you know what a straw man argument is? I suggest that you are making one. The point, in case you haven't figured it out yet despite having several posters clarify for you, is that there does not have to be nor is there a claim that there is a link between being an illegal and a propensity to commit murder. Rather, the point is to show the price in human lives that Americans are paying for the government's inability or refusal to deal with the illegal immigration problem. an American killed by an illegal alien is an American who would be alive today had that illegal alien not been on US soil. What about that can you not wrap your head around?

    Okay, that was the nice part of my post in which I pretend that you are logically deficient. Now is the part where I state my opinion of your purpose. The fact is almost certainly that you realize full well what the topic and purpose of this thread is and that you understand full well that you are creating a straw man argument because there is no argument for the fact actually being discussed, which is that Americans are not only losing their jobs and tax dollars to illegal aliens, but that in far too many cases they are losing their lives. There does not have to be a causality between the fact of being an illegal alien and the likelihood of committing murder in order to discuss that lives are being lost to illegals. However, even you must acknowledge that the less respect one has for the law, the more likely it is that he will break it. An illegal alien breaks the law when he comes here or overstays his visa. An illegal alien breaks the law when he works here. An illegal alien breaks the law when he obtains falsified identification in order to function here. The list of laws broken just by the fact of being an illegal alien is a long one, and clearly demonstrates a lack of respect for our laws. It should, therefore, be little surprise when many illegal aliens go on to commit crimes not directly related to their immigration status, and those crimes range from driving without proper licensure and insurance to assault to rape to murder. That is a fact, so why don't you run along to the La Raza site or wherever else it is that you call home if you can't frame an honest argument?

  4. #34
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    MrLeft, if the illegal invader had not committed the crime of coming here in the first place, then the murder by that illegal person would never happen and another American family would not be suffering because of the illegal invasion.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Dixie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Or maybe they just want a job?... What percentage of illegals come here to commit a murder? And what percentage of them are just looking for work so they can make their lives a little better...
    I really don't care who is looking for a better life. They can make it in their homeland. That's excuse abuse. Who knows about the whys you ask, since they don't fill out the paper work and go through the required process. Job seekers, anchor baby/disease carriers and MS13 all do the same thing, divert the system. They are all criminal aliens.

    So, if you say that illegal immigration and murder are connected, clearly, you must have some quantitative evidence indicating that, and a fairly sophisticated system of statistical analysis from which to derive that data...
    US Department of Justice Reports. That's where we are getting our data. It's not rocket science.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/

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  6. #36
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    Mr. Left - do you live in an area plagued with illegals? You might have a change of heart if you live next to them and see the evidence first hand.

    Here's part of an article I posted, you can read all of it at:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/national ... -9229r.htm



    Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: People who sneak across the border are no longer good people

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/national ... -9229r.htm

    House told criminals swelling alien tide
    By Charles Hurt
    THE WASHINGTON TIMES
    July 8, 2006


    Most of the people who sneak across the border are no longer good people in search of honest work, the sheriff of a border county in Texas told a House subcommittee yesterday, but rather criminals who belong to gangs and drug cartels.

    "For years we have seen individuals enter the country illegally," said Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr., sheriff of Zapata County. "However, recently we feel that many of these persons are no longer entering the country to look for legitimate employment. We are now seeing that many of these persons are members of ruthless and violent gangs."

    Sheriff Gonzalez's testimony before the House International Relations subcommittee was part of a series of "field hearings" held across the country to gauge voter opinion on reforming the nation's immigration laws. Yesterday's hearing was held in Laredo, in Zapata County.

    "Some areas can accurately be described as a war zone," panel Chairman Ed Royce, California Republican, told The Washington Times after touring the border near Laredo.
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  7. #37
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    Mrleft, I think that the fact that 1/3 of prison inmates are illegals speaks for itself. Please note that anchor babies who have a tendency to affiliate with gangs are not even included. The left (left their huevos at home with their wife) has to have empirical evidence which they can ignore when dealing with realities they would rather not acknowledge. but let a statistic agree with their point of view and they are all over it.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by CheyenneWoman
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Or maybe they just want a job?... What percentage of illegals come here to commit a murder?
    Now you're being disingenuous.

    First: Coming into a country to take a job from another person is a form of theft. And we won't even get into the fake documentation, SS numbers,etc. which is fraud. So, they just want a job, but at what cost to the citizens of the country?

    Next: Now that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have "heard" in a very long time. The answer - in short, is "who knows"? From my limited knowledge on the subject of murderers, I would say that the only one I can think of are "hit men", who have a specific "target". Having said that, I have no clue as to the intentions of the MS-13 gangs.

    So, if you say that illegal immigration and murder are connected, clearly, you must have some quantitative evidence indicating that, and a fairly sophisticated system of statistical analysis from which to derive that data...
    There is data on this board showing the incidence rate of illegals in prisons. I will not throw out numbers, until I can post ones that are correct.

    Here is a website for you to check out:

    http://immigrationcounters.com/
    Immigrants come here to take jobs that no one else will. This is common knowledge. The way you're saying it, it's like they drop in unannounced and steal someone's job when they're not looking... and the people who used to have jobs would be like "oh my goodness! my job is gone! Where did it go? It was here a second ago!..."

    Your notion that immigrants are stealing people's jobs, as in theft, is asinine, my dear cheyene woman.

    As for you data - I'll believe it when I see it.
    All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.

  9. #39

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    Here you go. Here are the actual statistics from the year 2000:

    "Data from the 5 percent Public Use Microsample (PUMS) of the 2000 census were used to measure the institutionalization rates of immigrants and natives, focusing on males 18 to 39, most of whom are in correctional facilities. Of the 45.2 million males age 18 to 39, three percent were in federal or state prisons or local jails at the time of the 2000 census — a total of over 1.3 million, in line with official prison statistics at that time.

    Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men"

    http://www.migrationinformation.org/Fea ... cfm?id=403

    "Tellingly, among the foreign born, the highest incarceration rate by far (4.5 percent) was observed among island-born Puerto Ricans, who are not immigrants as such since they are US citizens by birth and can travel to the mainland as natives. If the island-born Puerto Ricans were excluded from the foreign-born totals, the national incarceration rate for the foreign born would drop to 0.68 percent.

    Of particular interest is the finding that the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are seen for the least educated groups: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52 percent), and Mexicans (0.70 percent). These are precisely the groups most stigmatized as "illegals" in the public perception and outcry about immigration."
    All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by CheyenneWoman
    Here is the article I was looking for:

    In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    • A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion
    illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

    • The leadership of the Columbia Li’l Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former Assistant U.S. Attorney Luis Li. Frank "Pancho Villa" Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.
    There is even more reading - Here's the link: (Now, I'm going to bed)

    http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
    http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/ ... to_th.html

    ""Fact" 2: 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
    LAT citations: May 15, 2005 — "According to Heather MacDonald of the Manhattan Institute, 95% of the hundreds of outstanding homicide warrants (and 60% of outstanding felony warrants) in L.A. are for illegal immigrants."
    Similar citations: January 19, 2004
    Factual basis: An outstanding warrant is quite a different beast than a regular warrant, so this "fact" left out the key word. We did some more checking on the outstanding warrants point itself. MacDonald stated this in a 2004 City Journal article, and in testimony before the House of Representatives in spring 2005, noting that this came to 1,200-1,500 warrants. One LAPD officer cited the same factoid in the National Review earlier this year, saying that it's specific to "the first half of 2004". But Jane Robison, press secretary for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office, told us that the D.A. does not keep track of this number; a representative with Detective Headquarters said the same."
    All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.

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