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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalUSCitizen
    Mr. Left's
    Is it fair to say we're more enraged that they're illegal, than that they actually, you know, killed someone?
    YES. It is ABSOLUTELY FAIR to say that we ARE MORE ENRAGED when an ILLEGAL ALIEN kills an American Citizen. If they had not been allowed to enter our country ILLEGALLY the murdered Americans might not, and PROBABLY WOULD NOT have had their right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness taken away from them.

    It IS the job of the president and Congress to uphold all of our laws including immigration laws which exist primarily to protect the safety and well-being of the citizens of the United States.
    Legal USCitizen
    We have our own criminals, we have enough of them, we don't need anymore from other countries, they have their own countries to committ their crimes there.

  2. #52
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    Good job Crocket and Dixie:

    See, I can go to bed and leave everything in your more than capable hands when it comes to dealing with:


  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie
    I think the fact they're here illegally and the fact they've killed people are not connected.
    Yes it is connected. If they were not here, they would not be killing Americans.
    [quote:2natl3st]Lets make a list of Americans killed by Americans and see which one is longer. We have bigger problems to worry about.
    NO, lets not because you are missing the point and defending illegal immigrants. They should not be here and Americans should not be suffering at their hands. We need to take up for ourselves and remove every last one of them. They are not innocent and here just to do a job. They make up 1/3rd or our prison population. That's just the ones that have been caught. They are not in prison because of minor violations. They have committed felonies, fraud, murder, rape.... Criminals are criminals and every illegal alien is a criminal.

    The punishment for illegally entering the United States is deportation! We need more enforcement to keep up with all the illegal alien criminals and that will solve that problem. Believe me, it's coming because the people want it
    .
    Thats funny. I wonder if Mexicans were thinking the same thing when we took Texas away from them in the 1800's. Oh and illegal immigrants DO NOT make up 1/3 of our prison population.

    Where are you getting that 1/3rd of the prison population is illegal immigrants stat from?

    According to the US Department of Justice, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim05.pdf , in mid 1995, 6.4% of state and federal prison population was non-citizens. Even California only goes as high as 10%.

    Having done a google search I see your stat posted a million times on paranoid right-wing sites, and never with an actual link to the source of the stat. The closest I've found is "I heard Lou Dobbs say". And to be honest, that's not really doing it for me.
    LOL!!!

    This time the boy had to go back over a decade to find a convenient statistic!

    Hey fella, I note that you have totally avoided my first rebuttal of your straw man argument. May I take that as a concession of your error?[/quote:2natl3st]

    That stat is from 2005. I've no clue why I typed 1995. If you bothered to look at the link you would have realised.

    So do you have a link for your claims or not?
    All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Here you go. Here are the actual statistics from the year 2000:

    "Data from the 5 percent Public Use Microsample (PUMS) of the 2000 census were used to measure the institutionalization rates of immigrants and natives, focusing on males 18 to 39, most of whom are in correctional facilities. Of the 45.2 million males age 18 to 39, three percent were in federal or state prisons or local jails at the time of the 2000 census — a total of over 1.3 million, in line with official prison statistics at that time.

    Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men"

    http://www.migrationinformation.org/Fea ... cfm?id=403

    "Tellingly, among the foreign born, the highest incarceration rate by far (4.5 percent) was observed among island-born Puerto Ricans, who are not immigrants as such since they are US citizens by birth and can travel to the mainland as natives. If the island-born Puerto Ricans were excluded from the foreign-born totals, the national incarceration rate for the foreign born would drop to 0.68 percent.

    Of particular interest is the finding that the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are seen for the least educated groups: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52 percent), and Mexicans (0.70 percent). These are precisely the groups most stigmatized as "illegals" in the public perception and outcry about immigration."
    That's a useless statistic because it does not separate illegal aliens from legal immigrants and residents. What's more, there is no good measure of how many illegal immigrants are in this country, which means that there can be no valid percentage available for the purposes of determining thie relative incarceration rate. Your stat is an apple to the orange being discussed, but then you already knew that.

    If you're not going to be honest, perhaps you should move on. Folks here are too intelligent to be duped by some numbskull quoting unrelated statistics.
    Are you kidding?

    I'll sum it up for you. If A + B is less than C, and remember we're dealing with positive numbers here, A can never be more than C.

    Let's try it a different way. According to official figures from the US Department of justice, in mid-2005, 6.4% of the inmates at state and federal correctional facilities were non-citizens. That includes legals and illegals alike.
    All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.

  5. #55

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    BTW - According to the District Attorney for the County of Northampton, PA in a report dated 10/1/03, illegal aliens nationwaide account for over 25% of the federal prison population. Here's a link to the report:

    http://www.friendsfw.org/Legislation/Im ... HR2671.pdf
    And shockingly he doesn't cite his sources either. Seems to be a common theme among anti-immigration people. For the life of me I can't figure out why.

    Again, according to official statistics the number is 19%. So it's down 6% since 03. Good news right? I'm sure you'll be making mention of that to your paranoid buddies.



    This article:

    http://www.therealitycheck.org/StaffWri ... 051606.htm

    places the percentage of federal inmates in 2004 at 27%.

    Again they cite no source. realitycheck.org in unsubstantiated claim shocker!

    Official figures in 04 put the figure at 20%. So again the number has decreased from 04 to 05! Joy, right?


    I note that Lou Dobbs has previously reported the illegal alien percentage in our prisons as 33%, but I am not certain of his source.
    I also noted in an earlier post that Lou Dobbs quoted that figure. He seems to have found it the same place Bill O'Reilly finds all his statistics. Namely that orifice round the back. That hasn't stopped a billion right-wing sites quoting is as fact however.

    Bottom line, your claims and statisitics are all wrong. The number you should be quoting is 6.4%. That is the grand total percentage of inmates that are non-citizens.
    All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Quote Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie
    I think the fact they're here illegally and the fact they've killed people are not connected.
    Yes it is connected. If they were not here, they would not be killing Americans.
    [quote:31cuw6z4]Lets make a list of Americans killed by Americans and see which one is longer. We have bigger problems to worry about.
    NO, lets not because you are missing the point and defending illegal immigrants. They should not be here and Americans should not be suffering at their hands. We need to take up for ourselves and remove every last one of them. They are not innocent and here just to do a job. They make up 1/3rd or our prison population. That's just the ones that have been caught. They are not in prison because of minor violations. They have committed felonies, fraud, murder, rape.... Criminals are criminals and every illegal alien is a criminal.

    The punishment for illegally entering the United States is deportation! We need more enforcement to keep up with all the illegal alien criminals and that will solve that problem. Believe me, it's coming because the people want it
    .
    Thats funny. I wonder if Mexicans were thinking the same thing when we took Texas away from them in the 1800's. Oh and illegal immigrants DO NOT make up 1/3 of our prison population.

    Where are you getting that 1/3rd of the prison population is illegal immigrants stat from?

    According to the US Department of Justice, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim05.pdf , in mid 1995, 6.4% of state and federal prison population was non-citizens. Even California only goes as high as 10%.

    Having done a google search I see your stat posted a million times on paranoid right-wing sites, and never with an actual link to the source of the stat. The closest I've found is "I heard Lou Dobbs say". And to be honest, that's not really doing it for me.
    LOL!!!

    This time the boy had to go back over a decade to find a convenient statistic!

    Hey fella, I note that you have totally avoided my first rebuttal of your straw man argument. May I take that as a concession of your error?
    That stat is from 2005. I've no clue why I typed 1995. If you bothered to look at the link you would have realised.

    So do you have a link for your claims or not?[/quote:31cuw6z4]
    I posted the links to my claims. Didn't you bother to read the posts?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Quote Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    Here you go. Here are the actual statistics from the year 2000:

    "Data from the 5 percent Public Use Microsample (PUMS) of the 2000 census were used to measure the institutionalization rates of immigrants and natives, focusing on males 18 to 39, most of whom are in correctional facilities. Of the 45.2 million males age 18 to 39, three percent were in federal or state prisons or local jails at the time of the 2000 census — a total of over 1.3 million, in line with official prison statistics at that time.

    Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men"

    http://www.migrationinformation.org/Fea ... cfm?id=403

    "Tellingly, among the foreign born, the highest incarceration rate by far (4.5 percent) was observed among island-born Puerto Ricans, who are not immigrants as such since they are US citizens by birth and can travel to the mainland as natives. If the island-born Puerto Ricans were excluded from the foreign-born totals, the national incarceration rate for the foreign born would drop to 0.68 percent.

    Of particular interest is the finding that the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are seen for the least educated groups: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52 percent), and Mexicans (0.70 percent). These are precisely the groups most stigmatized as "illegals" in the public perception and outcry about immigration."
    That's a useless statistic because it does not separate illegal aliens from legal immigrants and residents. What's more, there is no good measure of how many illegal immigrants are in this country, which means that there can be no valid percentage available for the purposes of determining thie relative incarceration rate. Your stat is an apple to the orange being discussed, but then you already knew that.

    If you're not going to be honest, perhaps you should move on. Folks here are too intelligent to be duped by some numbskull quoting unrelated statistics.
    Are you kidding?

    I'll sum it up for you. If A + B is less than C, and remember we're dealing with positive numbers here, A can never be more than C.

    Let's try it a different way. According to official figures from the US Department of justice, in mid-2005, 6.4% of the inmates at state and federal correctional facilities were non-citizens. That includes legals and illegals alike.
    Do you honestly not understand what you are quoting, or is this another attempt to mislead?

    Your formula above works ONLY when talking about aggregate totals. The formula fails when you are talking about RATE, which is an average. Allow me to illustrate:

    The "rate" is for non-American born. That's a demographic that would include all legal and illegal citizens and non-citizens. Now, let's say hypothetically that we are looking at 5 million immigrants from Area A, 8 million immigrants from Area B, and 12 million immigrants from Area C. If there are only 3000 Area A immigrants incarcerated, 4500 Area B immigrants incarcerated, and 20,000 Area C immigrants incarcerated, the total incarceration rate for non-US born immigrants looks pretty darned low. Take areas A and B out of the equation, however, and the rate for Area C jumps considerably.

    Without identifiying the area of origin or separating legal from illegal immigrants, there is no meaningful statistic that can be gathered from what you have provided because a low rate from one or more groups can more than offset a very high rate for another specific group. What you have provided is worthless for the purposes of this conversation, but you already knew that.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLeft
    BTW - According to the District Attorney for the County of Northampton, PA in a report dated 10/1/03, illegal aliens nationwaide account for over 25% of the federal prison population. Here's a link to the report:

    http://www.friendsfw.org/Legislation/Im ... HR2671.pdf
    And shockingly he doesn't cite his sources either. Seems to be a common theme among anti-immigration people. For the life of me I can't figure out why.

    Again, according to official statistics the number is 19%. So it's down 6% since 03. Good news right? I'm sure you'll be making mention of that to your paranoid buddies.



    [quote:1g9o408z]This article:

    http://www.therealitycheck.org/StaffWri ... 051606.htm

    places the percentage of federal inmates in 2004 at 27%.

    Again they cite no source. realitycheck.org in unsubstantiated claim shocker!

    Official figures in 04 put the figure at 20%. So again the number has decreased from 04 to 05! Joy, right?


    I note that Lou Dobbs has previously reported the illegal alien percentage in our prisons as 33%, but I am not certain of his source.
    I also noted in an earlier post that Lou Dobbs quoted that figure. He seems to have found it the same place Bill O'Reilly finds all his statistics. Namely that orifice round the back. That hasn't stopped a billion right-wing sites quoting is as fact however.

    Bottom line, your claims and statisitics are all wrong. The number you should be quoting is 6.4%. That is the grand total percentage of inmates that are non-citizens.
    [/quote:1g9o408z]
    False. For the Reality Check site, the sources are cited at the end of the article.

    The stats aren't "wrong." You just don't like them.

    Similarly, the .pdf you cited does not provide total numbers of prison inmates by race, as you seem to falsely claim. What it provides is another screwy stat, which is RATE per 100,000 residents. Note that in the total for all age groups, Hispanics are incarcerated at a higher rate than all groups listed except blacks, as follows:

    White: 709
    Black: 4682
    Hispanic: 1856
    Other: 1371

    As far as the percentage in the state and federal prison systems, that number cannot be ascertained from this data, which is an aggregate RATE for prisons AND local and county jails. Furthermore, the RATE is for the "US resident population." Illegal aliens are not legal US residents, so it is unclear as to whether they are even included in these stats. Furthermore, table 14, for example, demonstrates the oddball methodology employed, which I detail below.

    1. Counts by race and Hispanic origin were estimated.
    2. To correct for missing data, reoprts for each group were aggregated by State, converted to percentages, then multiplied by the total prison and jail counts.
    3. (and this is the kicker!) These numbers EXCLUDE ALL INMATES SENTENCED TO MORE THAN ONE YEAR.

    The percentage of "non-citizen" inmates is given as 19% for FEDERAL prisons, but the state prison rate is screwy. Why? Because if you look at the notes for stats from the individual states, their methodology for determining this stat varies greatly, with many states not even providing that stat. So in those cases we are back to the issue of averaging based upon percentage of population, which does not appear to be adjusted for higher incarceration rates for many of the races representing the non-citizens.

    So this is scarcely a useful set of statistics for determining the accuracy of the claim that about 1/3 or prison inmates are illegal aliens, is it? It is estimated, provided in "rates" that don't separate illegals from legals, and it excludes the HUGE demographic of inmates sentenced to more than one year. Nice going!

    You must not have taken any statistics classes in school, because you seem to have no idea what the stats you are citing do and do not demonstrate.

  9. #59
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    More info on illegal alien murders:

    • In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    • A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

    • The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.



    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_t ... alien.html

  10. #60
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    And more on the percentage in prisons, with source cited:

    Criminal aliens—non-citizens who commit crimes—are a growing threat to public safety and national security, as well as a drain on our scarce criminal justice resources. In 1980, our federal and state prisons housed fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. By the end of 1999, these same prisons housed over 68,000 criminal aliens.1 Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal prison inmates.2 These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of the federal prison population. Over the past five years, an average of more than 72,000 aliens have been arrested annually on drug charges alone.

    1. Other aliens not included in this total include immigrants who have become U.S. citizens (not included in the federal prison data), aliens being held for trial and some awaiting deportation but not convicted in the United States, e.g., the Cuban Marielitos.
    2. National Institute of Corrections, Federal Bureau of Prisons, June 2003.
    Last edited by Jean; 08-21-2013 at 06:08 PM.

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