Lou Dobbs 12/12/2005

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... dt.01.html

DOBBS: Tonight, an alarming new report on our nation's border and immigration crisis. It finds the number of immigrants living in this country at an all-time high of 35 million. Up to 13 million of those immigrants are here illegally, although other estimates range much higher. This report comes as a new CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll finds that most Americans, almost two thirds, disapprove of the way President Bush is handling immigration policy.

Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): There are a lot of disturbing numbers in the analysis of U.S. census data by the Center for Immigration Studies which bode ill for the economy. Almost two- thirds of illegal aliens don't have high school educations. Only 14 percent have any education beyond high school. Sixty-five percent of illegal aliens have no health coverage.

STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: The modern American economy offers very limited opportunities to people with very little education. Illegal aliens, who are overwhelmingly uneducated, are just not going to make much money in the U.S., even if we were to magically grant them legal status tomorrow.

TUCKER: Because when a person is unskilled, they remain unskilled, legal or not. It's estimated that nationwide, illegal aliens account for 9 percent of the people living in poverty. There are illegal aliens in virtually every state in the union.

The top five are no surprise: California, Texas, Florida, New York and Arizona. New Jersey and Illinois come in a close six and seven.

Far from being benign, illegal immigration exacts a toll from people and from coffers.

CAMAROTA: It looks like for the federal government, the net drain from illegals on public services, minus the taxes that they do pay, is about $10 billion a year. On state and local governments, it's likely to be significantly more than that.

TUCKER: In addition to social welfare costs, there are the more difficult costs to calculate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: The study by CIS notes that one-third to one half of all immigrant children enrolled in school are either illegal or the children of illegals -- Lou.

DOBBS: Bill Tucker. A sobering report, indeed.

Thank you. A rift has emerged within the Republican Party over just how to handle illegal immigration. The president wants a guest worker program, what some call amnesty. House Republicans are demanding that the United States first secure its porous borders.

Christine Romans has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The president wants a guest worker program.

BUSH: Our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country.

A willing worker and a willing employer.

Matching willing employers with willing workers from foreign countries.

ROMANS: But House Republicans want to stop illegal immigration first. They want to secure the border, punish employers, and keep worker programs off the table for now.

DAVID GERGEN, FMR. PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Well, there's an obvious rift, because hard-line conservatives in the House want to go home before Christmas with a bill that they can say, we're trying to shut down the borders.

ROMANS: Gergen calls it dangerous politics for the president, who sees Hispanics as an important voting bloc in the future. But House Republicans are barreling toward passing a bill the president doesn't like.

REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: I would politely but profoundly take issue with the RNC and the White House for seeming to adopt what I call the myth of the monolith, the notion that everyone of Hispanic heritage instantly embraces the influx of illegal immigration.

ROMANS: Congressman Hayworth wants enforcement first, and he thinks Hispanics do, too. Yet, the congressman from Hayworth's neighboring district, Jeff Flake, sides with the president and call his colleague a restrictionist, highlighting the deep divisions in the Republican Party.

CLIFF MAY, FDN. FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Well, among Republicans there are several different schools of thought and different views, and they're sort of competing. There are those who think enforcement is absolutely the most important thing. The White House obviously feels it's important to have guest worker programs and to be very clear that we are not at all anti-immigrant. And then you have the sort of Wall Street journal approach, which thinks the borders should be pretty much open.

ROMANS: Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman has been meeting with Republicans, pushing a unified message. "We are a nation of laws and we are a nation of immigrants."

But so far, the Republican divide only widens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Many say the White House is more in line perhaps with the Democrats on this issue, but the message from House Republicans is clear. They will get their enforcement bill through before the end of the year, and the president will have to use all of his political skills and influence when it comes to the Senate maybe sometime in February.

DOBBS: The fact is that the language that's started to emanate now from the White House, the RNC and certain portions of the House is -- to refer to those who are concerned about border security, when an estimated three million illegal aliens crossed our borders last year, those people concerned about border security, national security, the well-being of American citizens, is now restrictionist? Give me a break.

ROMANS: Part of the new language that's coming up. (INAUDIBLE) politics and semantics don't get in the way of actual reform, progress, changes.

DOBBS: And you can see as clear as imaginable the White House and the Senate right now conspiring to let the House move forward. And as the midterm elections approach in fall of next year, and then games will be played in conference and the political posturing is well under way, one hopes for the good of the country that some of those in the House leadership prevail on this issue, because nothing that happens in terms of immigration in this country, without border security first, will amount to a hill of beans.

Christine Romans.

Thank you very much.

More now on the immigration crisis and border security crisis in this country. As we reported to you early in the broadcast, a new report has found nearly two-thirds of the millions of illegal aliens in this country do not have a high school education.

Joining me now to discuss the study and the situation, Janet Murguia, the president and CEO of the National Council of La Raza joining us tonight from Washington.

Janet, good to have you here.

JANET MURGUIA, PRES. & CEO NATL. COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: Nice to see you.

And here in our New York studios Cesar Perales is the president of the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund. Cesar, good have you here.

CESAR PERALES, PUERTO RICAN LEGAL DEFENSE & EDU. FUND: Nice to be here.

DOBBS: Let's begin with a study, which estimates more than two million Americans who once worked in construction, cleaning maintenance and food preparation are now simply uninformed.

Janet, what's going on?

MURGUIA: Well, I think what we're seeing is that there's different ways that you can look at some of the facts in here, and there's no question that some states are taking a hit when it comes to immigrants and different people who are doing certain work.

But the fact is that the federal government gets a huge windfall from these workers. We're talking in the billions of dollars where they are contributing into federal income taxes, state taxes and Social Security. In fact...

DOBBS: So, if we want to get rid of the deficit, Janet, we should just bring in more illegal aliens?

MURGUIA: No, that's not what we're saying. All I'm saying is that if you want to compare figures where you have a report that shows that there may be some draw on certain states and parts of country in terms of the contributions that immigrants are making, you need to look at fact that--and don't take it from me.

The National Academy of Sciences has reported that immigrant workers will be a benefit to the Social Security system by a tune of $500 billion in the period between 1998 and 2022. So, you know, we need to recognize where those contributions are coming in. And those folks are not taking anything out of the system because they obviously aren't qualified for that.

DOBBS: Well, since we're throwing numbers around. Then I have got to throw a few at you, costing each year $30 billion in social and medical assistance in this country, $200 billion in depressed wages. These are -- that's hardly offset by any contribution to Social Security or the pittance that is paid in taxes.

So let me now turn to you, if I may, Cesar. The issue of immigration reform--this president is talking about willing workers and willing employers. He has got a guest worker program, but he is not talking about true border security when we are in global war on terror. When we have got three million illegal aliens last year crossing our borders. No one knows yet how many over this course of 2005.

What sense does that make?

PERALES: Well, Lou, I don't think anybody is against the border security. But I think people get confused. I think the audience has got to understand that 20 years ago when we started to be concerned about undocumented people coming to this country, we had an unemployment rate of nine point eight.

Last year, I think it was six percent. This year it is down to 5 percent. I don't think anybody can argue that the enormous wave of immigration has done damage to this economy. So I...

DOBBS: You don't think anyone can?

PERALES: Well, I've heard arguments. I certainly disagree with those arguments.

DOBBS: Oh, that's a different thing. I understand you disagree. But in point of fact, are you pro-illegal immigration?

PERALES: No, I'm pro-immigration.

DOBBS: No, no, I'm asking about illegal immigration. Are you pro-illegal immigration?

PERALES: No, I am not pro-illegal immigration.

You've heard me argue on behalf of people who are already in this country. I defend their rights when their rights are violated.

DOBBS: OK. Well, I think that's terrific. No one's rights should ever be violated.

But why are we permitting and why are organizations like yours and La Raza, Janet, taking this on as a racial issue when every poll, every survey, I have seen shows at least half those of Hispanic background and culture and who are American citizens want border security? They want immigration reform, and they are what the White House is now taking to calling restrictions, I believe, when it comes to people crossing our borders illegally.

Janet, how do you deal with that?

MURGUIA: No, Lou. Nobody is suggesting that we're for open borders. Nobody is trying to promote illegal immigration here. We want, as all Americans want, a safe system that allows for controlled and orderly entry.

But the system is broken, and we need solutions that fix it. And all we keep hearing in this debate is how it's broken, but we need to focus on how we can fix it. And what we're suggesting is...

DOBBS: Would you support, for example, a fence across the 2,000 mile border with Mexico?

MURGUIA: You know, we've invested money in the border, in the fence issue before, and it's may be part of a solution. The problem is people only want to look at a fence or only at enforcement when it comes to solving this problem, and it has to be comprehensive.

DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not fair.

When you and Cesar suggest that those who are concerned about border security and a rational humane, immigration law and its enforcement in this country, to suggest that makes no sense.

Because the fact is all of us want those who benefit from illegal immigration, first of all, those who employ them illegally to be punished and to pay their fair share. Because it's only right, correct, Cesar?

PERALES: Yes, I agree with you, Lou, and I think both Janet and I do want to see major immigration reform.

I think where we differ is in the emphasis. I think your emphasis on suggesting that the people who come to this country looking to work are somehow evil... DOBBS: I have never suggested that ever once.

PERALES: But it seems to be in the implication.

DOBBS: No, it's not even an implication. Let me be clear. The people who cross our borders do so illegally. We have immigration laws. People say to me, we're a nation of immigrants. No surprise. This entire country is the most diverse society in the face of the earth and it always will be, God willing.

But the fact of the matter is we're also a nation of laws and you and Janet and the organizations that you run, I don't hear you demanding that law be enforced. I don't hear you saying border security has to be a condition preceding to immigration reform.

Because you and Janet and I know and everybody watching and listening to you knows that you can't reform immigrations if you can't control your ports and your borders.

MURGUIA: Lou, Lou.

PERALES: We agree.

MURGUIA: Lou, I would agree with you on that. Enforcement absolutely has to be part of a solution. It just can't be the only part of solution.

DOBBS: Oh, I wouldn't suggest it in a million years.

MURGUIA: Well then we're on the same page because we understand that security and enforcement are important. But all we hear sometimes in this debate is how it's the only thing that's part of the solution.

We need to have comprehensive solutions that allow us to deal practically and sensibly with this issue and rounding up whatever amounts of undocumented immigrants are out there and trying to send them back to their country of origin is not going to work. We need to have sensible solutions. We support the McCain-Kennedy Bill, which offers a balance of enforcement and for legalization.

DOBBS: How about the Kyl-Cornyn bill? Kyl-Cornyn, that is a strong, tough bill.

MURGUIA: It's a strong, tough bill, and there are some measures in there that we can work with, but it doesn't allow for guest workers provisions that would allow us to deal with those folks who have been in this country making important contributions that reflect that we are a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants. And that is what is really important to strike that balance.

DOBBS: Couldn't agree with you more. Cesar, I'd love to let you have this conversation as we wrap it up, but we're out of time. And by the way, Janet, as you and Cesar both know, the Kyl-Cornyn bill does provide for a legalization process. It is far more stringent and doesn't permit anyone to buy their citizenship. Thank you very much, Janet, I hope we can continue this dialogue, Cesar, thank you very much, we appreciate you both being here.

MURGUIA: Thank you.