Thread: Lou Dobbs sounds off on REAL ID today

William wrote:

2. America always prevented mass illegal immigration or solved mass illegal immigration in the past without putting all law abiding Americans into a national tracking ID, why start now?

You had also said on the Other Topics thread:

We were able to prevent and reverse illegal immigration in the 30's and 50's just fine without big brother biometric Real ID tracking technology.

William, we must realize that illegals were more easily controlled during the 30's and 50's because there were fewer of them here then, they stood out in marked contrast to the overwhelmingly white American population, and prior to the civil rights movement of the 60's, the illegals could not run to civil rights lawyers as they do now. And the powers of the police and National Guard were not so limited by liberals (or libertarians) in those days, so they were actually able to militarily sweep through towns one by one as they approached the Mexican border. Nowadays, the ACLU and many other rights groups would halt such an operation in mere minutes.

So the highhanded methods of the 30's and the 50's are no longer available to us, so we must use gentler methods such as enhancing our ID's to make it as uncomfortable and as inconvenient as possible for illegals to remain in OUR country.

A final thought: It is ironic that the police had more power 60 years ago than they do now, and yet now more people are complaining about their rights being violated.

William wrote:

Information is power. If you have it, you have the power. If someone else has it over you, they have the power. Why do you think that all prior generations of Americans rejected this kind of attempt to form a national ID or fingerprint everyone or allow the government on phone lines, in our bank accounts etc...

For that reason, why do you think the writers of the US Constitution put privacy protections into it?

Possession of information does not give OUR government the power to deprive us of our life, liberty or possessions without due process. And the Bill of Rights protects us from unreasonable searches of our property. That is why search warrants are required before OUR government can tap the phones of American citizens or pry into our bank accounts. Note that the feds got a search warrant to investigate former Governor Spitzer's records.

MW,

Here is the problem. I'm not worried about the machine readings of the bar code. You do not seem to understand how the system works. It is not theory and it is not conjecture. I have read the REAL ID act and the part that upsets me is the language about the uniform digital imagery they need for tracking.

They do not need the barcode to track you. They do not need RFID chips in the ID to track you. You do not have to have the ID on your person once your biomtrics are in the system for them to track you.

All you have to do is sit down for a close up, high resolution, digital, picture of your face without you smiling, and for this picture to be documented along with other solid information proving your real identity. One time is all it takes.

At that point, you can be tracked anytime your face is sampled by any digital camera in the system.

Examples, you walk into a mall, you walk into an airport, you are walking down the street, a police camera sees your face at a traffic stop, a Federal agent sweeps the crowd at a protest outside the White House, etc....

Your face is the barcode. The camera is the reader. You are 'swiped' each time you pass a camera in the system.

So many people do not understand how it works, it works like the faux technology in the movie Minority Report EXCEPT is uses your face instead of your eye and you DO NOT know when you are being scanned and you do not submit to being scanned at each incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQbVD5hlddk

The system was first tested, without public knowledge beforehand at the Super Bowl in 1999.

http://www.news.com/Firm-defends-snoope ... 53884.html

The system did not work well because they used old analogy DMV photos. They need the new digital photos for accuracy and they need you pegged to your other documents.

This is no theory, this is not conjecture. This is the system that is going into place across America today.

W

Originally Posted by Jonathan

William wrote:

Information is power. If you have it, you have the power. If someone else has it over you, they have the power. Why do you think that all prior generations of Americans rejected this kind of attempt to form a national ID or fingerprint everyone or allow the government on phone lines, in our bank accounts etc...

For that reason, why do you think the writers of the US Constitution put privacy protections into it?

Possession of information does not give OUR government the power to deprive us of our life, liberty or possessions without due process. And the Bill of Rights protects us from unreasonable searches of our property. That is why search warrants are required before OUR government can tap the phones of American citizens or pry into our bank accounts. Note that the feds got a search warrant to investigate former Governor Spitzer's records.

Perhaps not, but are you willing to run the risk that future emperors or America like Bush will not flag you based on your data?

You keep applying for jobs with the government and big corps, but they keep turning you down. You apply for loans but get turned down. You apply for a degree in a sensitive technology field, but get turned down.

Ooops, someone flagged your records because you protested outside the White House, visited to many unsavory websites, or you have been tracked in associations with many people deemed out of favor with the state.

Once this system is fully operational, you can be herded like sheep never knowing the hand that helps or hinders is present.

If I controlled this system, I could take on and defeat anyone of you and completely wreck your lives and do it in a way you would never know it was me that did it.

Hello, Mrs. Smith? Yes, you don't know me but the gentleman named ______ that you were with in Vegas at the _____ hotel last year were you aware he is married and was under treatment for an STD the year before you met him? Yes, I'm going to contact his wife about this but I just wanted to confirm the relationship was sexual. I'm already pretty sure of that because his banking records show condom purchases on his way to meet you. I don't really care about his marital infidelities or his sexually transmitted diseases, he has just been involved with some unsavory (anti war, anti big business, anti illegal immigration, pick one) activities and we are going to make sure he has little time or resources for that anymore.

---

Resistance against the government will be futile. If you gather in any location for any meeting or assembly you can easily be tracked and monitored and your life can be interfered with like a credit file.

Too late for the sheep once headed to slaughter.

If the Germans had possessed this, they could have taken the Jews out over a longer period of time more selectively. Anne Frank would not have lasted in the attic as long as she did. Stalin could have killed more than 20 million of his own. China could shut down Falon Gong or the Tibetan monks with a few flicks of switches.

W

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Originally Posted by Dolly3275

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Real ID contains Biometric facial recognition technology. Once you are in the system, you will be tracked for the rest of your life as long as this system continues.

I think people should know about that BEFORE this citizen surveillance system goes into place.

All prior generations of Americans soundly rebuked and rejected these techniques.

When this system was originally discovered under construction at the Pentagon the congress pulled funding.

Why anyone in their right mind would be wiling to give a government that is at best failing us on an unprecedented level and at worst acting against the best interest of Americans this unprecedented power is beyond me.

In my opinion, Real ID, is the transnational ID to create the "mutual electronic security perimeter" discussed by the promoters of a North American Community.

Anyone that supports real ID, please type out the following acknowledgment.

"I _______ am willing to give the US Government unprecedented surveillance power over me and all law abiding US Citizens even though the government is financially insolvent, stacking billions more in debt on me, and completely failing to protect my borders, enforce existing laws, or give me representation as one taxed.

I understand that by entering the Real ID system, my identity can and will be sampled on a regular basis without my knowledge or consent and that a permanent electronic record of my whereabouts and associations with other citizens will be recorded from this point forward.

I also agree to subject my descendants to this new system regardless of the uses and abuses of such power in the future although these public discussions have not occurred prior to the implementation of this system.

Furthermore, I understand that my biometric ID will create a number that is uniquely attributed to me and once generated cannot be reversed or discarded based on my personal decisions. This number will soon be required for me to work, drive, bank, fly, eat etc...

I willingly kneel before the electronic omnipresence to be administered by the likes of Michael Chertoff and future politicians possibley Clinton or Obama"

WHO HERE WOULD LIKE TO SIGN?

W

Hi William. I disagree with you about this, and here is why:

First, how can we ever expect the government to solve the problem regarding illegals and possibly potential terrorists-----if there is NO way of preventing them from using fraudulent/copied documents??? One of the terrorists from 9/11 had 4 drivers' licenses----all from different states.

Next, this issue has CONTINUOUSLY been brought up on Terry Anderson----for at least the past 6 months, because he does not believe anything about the chips, etc.. He continually says--------will someone PLEASE send me an article-----from a CREDIBLE source------indicating that they plan on using a chip, retina recognition, voice recognition, etc. NOBODY has ever been able to do it.

Also, what additional information will the government be able to get on us----that they don't already have access to now?? If I had your name, Social Security number, and $25-----even I would be able to tell you where you live and work----and where you have lived/worked in at least the past five years. And, I could do this without leaving my house----and within an hour.

Dolly,

1. Why would anyone want to give the Government a new tool when they are not enforcing the existing laws first?

2. America always prevented mass illegal immigration or solved mass illegal immigration in the past without putting all law abiding Americans into a national tracking ID, why start now?

3. I will talk to Terry and send him the documents.

4. What additional information will the government have? They will have your physical location logged and who you were with. They will have a record of who you associate with. They are also working to take all known information about you to collect into one database to combine with your new tracking data that comes from real ID to then run programs on the data to determine your likelihood to be a terrorist. It will be like a credit file that controls every aspect of your life. That is why Michael Chertoff says real ID will "restructure our society".

Here is the logo of TIA (Total Information Awareness) which created the biometric tracking technology for Real ID. I will not bow to this.

Hi William:

I am still going to have to disagree with you about this issue.

There is NO way that our government will be able to do ANYTHING to stop the illegals/potential terrorists from using fraudulent/copied documents----unless they have some system in place similar to the Real ID.

ANYTHING that the government wants to know about us----they can already EASILy find out----this will not give them any additional information that they do not already have access to finding.

Every time you use your credit card, make a phone call, work, etc.----you already can be found. Don't you ever watch any of those detective/real crime shows to see how they track down the criminals???

I'm sorry, but I cannot get on this bandwagon-----as I feel that the Real ID is the ONLY solution. We cannot keep screaming to the government/Dept of Homeland Security to do something-----and when they offer a solution, fight against the solution.

I will continue to voice my opinions/support for the Real ID----on Terry Anderson, Outraged Patriots, etc. radio shows, websites, forums, etc.

Originally Posted by MW

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LZe32HSrRHk&feature=related

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/demon ... 4277687790

Pistov wrote:

Have you guys even read the Real ID Act?

Yes.

[quote:1ogiw75h]Quote:
It will use common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate).

The "machine readable technology" is the 2D bar code. The federal government will only have the power to track you when your driver's license is read (boarding commercial aircraft, entering federal building, etc.) They will not have the power to track your day to day movements. The card simply validates that you are who you say you are. You have to purchase a ticket in your name to enter a commercial aircraft and you have to sign in as a vistor to enter most federal buildings.[/quote:1ogiw75h]

I "think" that it is also suppose to contain some type of hologram image----so that they cannot be fraudulently copied/reproduced-----and those viewing them will EASILY be able to tell that they are fraudulent.

William wrote:

Perhaps not, but are you willing to run the risk that future emperors or America like Bush will not flag you based on your data?

I'm glad you concede my point.

As to the alarmist prospect that future emperors of America will flag citizens based on their data, that is a fate we can avoid as long as politically alert and active Americans elect and control a government that continues to have checks and balances between the various branches.

While we remain vigilant to the prospect of the misuse of power by the government we ultimately control, we must give our government the power and the tools to effectively resist the immediate emergency - the current INVASION.

Just as we do not fear firearms but do respect their power and their legitimate use, the power we give to OUR government must not be feared but respected and monitored.

I am just thinking here.. not to flame or anything.. actually curious..


What would you guys consider "too far"? Is there even that point?

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

MW,

Here is the problem. I'm not worried about the machine readings of the bar code. You do not seem to understand how the system works. It is not theory and it is not conjecture. I have read the REAL ID act and the part that upsets me is the language about the uniform digital imagery they need for tracking.

They do not need the barcode to track you. They do not need RFID chips in the ID to track you. You do not have to have the ID on your person once your biomtrics are in the system for them to track you.

All you have to do is sit down for a close up, high resolution, digital, picture of your face without you smiling, and for this picture to be documented along with other solid information proving your real identity. One time is all it takes.

At that point, you can be tracked anytime your face is sampled by any digital camera in the system.

Examples, you walk into a mall, you walk into an airport, you are walking down the street, a police camera sees your face at a traffic stop, a Federal agent sweeps the crowd at a protest outside the White House, etc....

Your face is the barcode. The camera is the reader. You are 'swiped' each time you pass a camera in the system.

So many people do not understand how it works, it works like the faux technology in the movie Minority Report EXCEPT is uses your face instead of your eye and you DO NOT know when you are being scanned and you do not submit to being scanned at each incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQbVD5hlddk

The system was first tested, without public knowledge beforehand at the Super Bowl in 1999.

http://www.news.com/Firm-defends-snoope ... 53884.html

The system did not work well because they used old analogy DMV photos. They need the new digital photos for accuracy and they need you pegged to your other documents.

This is no theory, this is not conjecture. This is the system that is going into place across America today.

W

William,
It seems that your view is that this all boils down to the government's right to know who its citizens are. . . or the the right of the American people to know (via THEIR government) to know who is or is not an American citizen and who deserves to stay here or not.

Since we do not live in tribal societies of 75 to 150 people any longer, we cannot be expected to know each member of our super-tribe or nation. Therefore I do not think it is unreasonable for OUR government to take a photo of OUR citizens.

If this is a digital photo that can be recognized (or tracked, to use your terminology) by security cameras at the mall, I have no problem with that. You might contest the right of the mall to have security cameras, if you wish, but most people do not have a problem with security cameras as long as they are in public areas where there is no assumption of privacy. In other words, most people do not think they have privacy rights when walking through a public place. They just do not want cameras intruding on the privacy they expect in a mall bathroom or in their homes.

The benefits of a Real ID far outweigh the risks, and I fully agree with Lou Dobbs, and Dolly, and MW and so many others that we need to finally put this program into action.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

William wrote:

Perhaps not, but are you willing to run the risk that future emperors or America like Bush will not flag you based on your data?

I'm glad you concede my point.

As to the alarmist prospect that future emperors of America will flag citizens based on their data, that is a fate we can avoid as long as politically alert and active Americans elect and control a government that continues to have checks and balances between the various branches.

While we remain vigilant to the prospect of the misuse of power by the government we ultimately control, we must give our government the power and the tools to effectively resist the immediate emergency - the current INVASION.

Just as we do not fear firearms but do respect their power and their legitimate use, the power we give to OUR government must not be feared but respected and monitored.

As to the alarmist prospect that future emperors of America will flag citizens based on their data, let's think a bit deeper on this issue:

There are 2 issues here.
One issue is the concern that the government has the power to hurt its people.

The other concern of the people is to lose power over who in in charge of THEIR government. At that point it is no longer THEIR government.

This may seem too obvious, but OUR government has for a long time had the means to hurt its people. Theoretically, it could simply start dropping nukes on its own cities or send out the police or FBI to arrest and execute thousands of people.

Yes, the government has the power to destroy us just as a motorist has the power to drive off a cliff. The issue is not the power of the government or the power of the kinetic energy in the automobile; the issue is controlling who is in the driver's seat.