Thread: NO LINKS TO GRASSFIRE ALLOWED AT ALIPAC

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=F ... ic&t=32939

The Pence bill doesn't seem to do anything about controlling the borders. Apparently it's all about temporary workers. The article hints in several places that it also involves amnesty, but I suspect that's not true.

One other thing that needs to be mentioned about the Cornyn-Kyl bill is that it doesn't grant a path to citizenship for the illegals who have violated our laws by sneaking across the border. I've heard Senator Kyl say several times that there's no reason why a bill that controls our borders needs to contain any provisions for citizenship, since that is a totally different issue. So there is no amnesty in that bill. Apparently some people are confused about that too.

I believe the cornyn kyl bill does in fact have a "path to citizenship," tatantula. It also increases the numbers allowed in.

The devil is always in the details, of course. Have you read either of the bills?

I read the Cornyn-Kyl bill, and linked to it and paraphrased it in my previous post. I didn't see anything in there about a path to citizenship and I would be very surprised if it says that. The website seems to be unavailable at the moment so I can't double-check it. I skimmed through the Pence bill that you linked but didn't see anything about border security or citizenship.

Have you read both bills?

Originally Posted by Tarantulas

I read the Cornyn-Kyl bill, and linked to it and paraphrased it in my previous post. I didn't see anything in there about a path to citizenship and I would be very surprised if it says that. The website seems to be unavailable at the moment so I can't double-check it. I skimmed through the Pence bill that you linked but didn't see anything about border security or citizenship.

Have you read both bills?

Tarantalus,

The Kyle bill allows for the illegals to leave for a few days and return. It is the same kind of Guest worker promise as the Bush legislation push.

Looking at the current state of non enforcement and the pattern that is well established there is no reason any sane American would believe that new legislation is going to be enforced regarding the departure of illegals 3-6 years down the road.

I am familiar with the enforcement parts of this bill, but there is not a lot of enforcement to be done when most of the 12 million illegals in America are granted some form of legal status one way or another.

Once we reward them in this way and further blur the lines between legal and illegal there is no way we can get a grip on this problem.

I'm not passing judgement on Senator Kyle as a person, but whoever helped him write this bill did a great job at trying to hide the poison.

The same groups pushing for open borders are pushing for national biometric ID and guest worker amnesty.

They get everything they want in this bill.

Enhanced enforcement in this bill will not reduce the number of illegals in America. It just legalizes the ones we have, puts all Americans under the thumb of full observation by big brother.

The point with Grassfire is that regardless of the good and bad in this bill, those that signed the petition had no idea their signatures would falsely be used to support this bill.

The last thing the American public needs is more tricks out of these politicians in an effort to legitimize the illegal work force these large industries have imported through their influence on the White House to paralyze our existing laws.

The Kyle bill serves those that have done this.

Take out the 5 year guest worker program and mandatory biometric ids for all Americans and the bill looks good. Those provisions are razor blades in candy.

W

Originally Posted by Tarantulas

I read the Cornyn-Kyl bill, and linked to it and paraphrased it in my previous post. I didn't see anything in there about a path to citizenship and I would be very surprised if it says that. The website seems to be unavailable at the moment so I can't double-check it. I skimmed through the Pence bill that you linked but didn't see anything about border security or citizenship.

Have you read both bills?

Yes, I have......which is why I'm dead set against both. I've gone from memory here but I have READ BOTH. As I said, the devil's in the details of which there are so many that it boggles the mind. There's nothing straight forward about either and that is exactly what they're counting on -- our confusion &/or lack of memory with the fine print.

William wrote:
Take out the 5 year guest worker program and mandatory biometric ids for all Americans and the bill looks good. Those provisions are razor blades in candy.

That's the PERFECT way to put it, William!

From memory here: I believe that both bills increase guest workers and H-B1s etc. by a high number, also. That alone is a "razor blade!" Then there's all kinds of tweaks & tunes to the endless families & extended families allowed to come that these bills would include.

You need to fire whoever it is that's feeding you this information, because it's completely wrong. Let's take it point by point.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

The Kyle bill allows for the illegals to leave for a few days and return.

No it doesn't. Illegals are required to leave the country and (if they want to return) apply for the Deferred Mandatory Departure program or the temporary worker program. Either way, they have to undergo a medical exam including immunization records, a criminal background check, and sign a waiver of judicial appeal of immigration status and any right to contest a removal action. With either program, the moment they're accepted into the program it starts a clock. The Deferred Mandatory Departure member has 5 years before he has to leave the country. The temporary worker has only 2 years.

And our conservative Republican Senator from Arizona is named Jon Kyl. K-Y-L. Not "Kyle."

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

It is the same kind of Guest worker promise as the Bush legislation push.

I haven't seen any legislation that the President has proposed but I very much doubt that the Kyl-Cornyn bill would be acceptable to him, because it does not include a path to citizenship. In fact, here's what it says about citizenship:

Any individual who falsely represents that the individual is a citizen for purposes of obtaining employment shall, for each such violation, be subject to a fine of not more than $5,000 and a term of imprisonment not to exceed 3 years.

Let me say this once again so there's no mistake. The Kyl-Cornyn bill says nothing about making a foreigner into an American citizen. It involves only border enforcement, employment enforcement, and a temporary worker program. There is no amnesty in this bill.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Looking at the current state of non enforcement and the pattern that is well established there is no reason any sane American would believe that new legislation is going to be enforced regarding the departure of illegals 3-6 years down the road.

The reason to expect enforcement is that the American people are fed up with the lack of it. The next President had better promise to enforce our immigration laws, in contrast to the way the last few Presidents have failed to enforce them. No one will be elected President in 2008 Without an assurance of immigration enforcement. That's my prediction. Enforcement has to start somewhere, because the alternative is to keep doing what we've been doing, and we all know that's not working. To say there will never be enforcement in the future because of lax enforcement now would mean that no legislation enacted in the future would ever do any good at all. Americans are not going to stand by and watch the illegal alien problem get worse without doing something about it.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

I am familiar with the enforcement parts of this bill, but there is not a lot of enforcement to be done when most of the 12 million illegals in America are granted some form of legal status one way or another.

The minute legal status is conferred on them it starts the countdown to their eventual removal from the country. If you look at the McCain-Kennedy bill, the legal status that confers is eventual citizenship conferred on criminals. Would you agree that there is a difference between the bills?

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Once we reward them in this way and further blur the lines between legal and illegal there is no way we can get a grip on this problem.

There's nothing blurry about this bill. It makes it very clear that once an illegal enters the program he will eventually have to leave the country. And if he stays here illegally he can be arrested by any police officer. There is nothing unclear about that.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

I'm not passing judgement on Senator Kyle as a person, but whoever helped him write this bill did a great job at trying to hide the poison.

Where, specifically, do you see "poison" in this bill? Whoever is feeding you this information is doing you a disservice, because they're getting it wrong.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

The same groups pushing for open borders are pushing for national biometric ID and guest worker amnesty.

They get everything they want in this bill.

No they won't. There are no open borders in this bill, and there is no national biometric ID in this bill. The biometric part of the bill is only for the automated entry and exit system at the border. It is not applicable to US citizens. And there is no amnesty in this bill because it does not talk about the path to US citizenship. Senator Kyl has always maintained that border enforcement and temporary workers have nothing to do with US citizenship, so there is nothing about that in this bill.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Enhanced enforcement in this bill will not reduce the number of illegals in America. It just legalizes the ones we have, puts all Americans under the thumb of full observation by big brother.

This is also untrue. This bill gives every police officer in the country the right to arrest illegals, and says that any "statute, policy, or practice" that prohibits local law enforcement from enforcing Federal immigration law or cooperating with Federal law enforcement is in violation of the Federal law. The bill doesn't "legalize" illegals. What it does is create resident aliens who know that they're on a timetable to leave this country, and who have no chance of appeal or legal challenge to the system.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

The last thing the American public needs is more tricks out of these politicians in an effort to legitimize the illegal work force these large industries have imported through their influence on the White House to paralyze our existing laws.

The Kyle bill serves those that have done this.

No it doesn't. Rather than "legitimizing the illegal work force," it turns them into people who know they will eventually have to leave the US, and makes it possible for every law enforcement officer in the country to become the agent of their removal. There aren't enough Homeland Security forces to deport every illegal in this country, but there certainly are enough police officers. If every one of them arrests just one illegal alien a week (which they will be able to do if this bill is passed), we're talking some serious numbers now. This bill allows and encourages them to do that.

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Take out the 5 year guest worker program and mandatory biometric ids for all Americans and the bill looks good. Those provisions are razor blades in candy.

Those provision do not exist in this bill, and whoever is telling you that they do is lying to you. The 5 year program is called Deferred Mandatory Departure. Even the name says "deportation" loud and clear. And there is no biometric ID program for Americans. None whatsoever.

Please read the bill. Click here to open it up in PDF format. If nothing else, please read the Table of Contents on pages 1 through 3, and take a look at the thumbnail sketch that I posted above. Whoever has been telling you about this bill is doing the country and ALIPAC a real disservice by giving you false information. This is a good bill, and it's exactly what this country needs to get a handle on the problem of illegal aliens.

Tarantulas,

Nobody is "feeding" me this information. You have to understand that I was here at the controls when the bill rolled out. I was fighting to read through the whole bill while in conference with other groups in the movement such as FAIR, NumbersUSA, 9/11 FSA. We were all very hopeful and enthusiastic upon first review of the information.

Once we read deeper into the bill and saw Senator KYL on NATIONAL TV grinning and basking in the praise they received, the smiles hit the floor when he said

"Yes, the illegals have to leave before getting any protected status.... We can work it out with the Mexican government where they can go and special stations are set up and they can be back in a matter of a few days."

I saw it and heard it with my own eyes. Within 48 hours ALIPAC and the other groups all went sour on the bill and notified our people that this bill sucks.

I welcome open debate, but you are mistaken by trying to gauge my position being based on some hearsay or second hand knowledge.

Also, it is clear to anyone that is watching this fight closely that any promise to remove illegal aliens in 3 to 6 years should be treated with as much skepticism as someone offering you beach front property in Kentucky!

The OBLS are already making the push for those that have been here for more than 5 years. They are using the time the illegal aliens have been here and the lack of enforcement they have helped create to justify letting them stay.

The call for citizenship is irrelevant. The big corporations want their slave labor force and could care less about citizenship. They just want them to stay to buy things and work cheap.

We can never stop the flow if we reward illegal aliens with citizenship, protected status, or souped up cards that allow them to parade around without the slightest fear of deportation or enforcement.

The entire game of the OBLs is to try and break this in slowly to the public. The problem they are having is that too many Americans have found out too rapidly about this crisis and that is fueling the backlash.

Ever heard of how you boil a frog? You throw a frog into hot water and it will jump out of the pot. You put a frog in lukewarm water and turn the heat up gradually and it will stay in place and cook to death.

Senator Kyl's bill sucks because one year from now we would still have the 12 million plus people that defied our will and defied our laws right next door to us. The difference is that they would not be reportable unless they had been caught killing someone and the next wave of millions of illegals will be rushing in around them.

Since they are now registering illegal aliens to vote, the legalized illegals can easily be gathered into a voting block to vote for more "Latino" or "Hispanic" racist legislation to protect the next wave.

Illegals need to go home. It is our weakness as a Nation they are exploiting. Americans do not want them to just get 'legalized'. They want them out.

We are tired of the tricks and the deceptions and in my opinion and the opinion of many others, what Senator Kyle's bill did was a deception and what Grassfire did was a deception.

No more tricks! Illegals go home. Enforce our existing laws now and take these new legislation bills and throw them in the trash.

W

Curiouspat

You write:

Why should only AMERICAN CITIZENS and LEGAL immigrants, have to obey the law?!

Because if they did there would be no one illegal immigrant working here.

EUREKA!! Then let's enforce our laws !!