Thread: So you think Hugo Chavez is actually okay? Check these out..

Cuba is a little nothihng Island completely undeserving of the hatred extended towards it by Americans.

Okay, maybe you forgot about this little thing called the Cuban Missile Crisis, which could very well happen again now that China is in almost full control of the Panama Canal. Oh, and they've got a new friend in Venezuela.

Chavez isn't exactly Enver Hoxha (look him up). This guy has $$$ thanks to the oil. There is potentially a very dangerous situation with Castro looking to expand his influence through his protege, which is Chavez by using his money and through China's virtual ownership of the Panama Canal. Not to mention their weaponry. Castro, unlike Chavez, is very highly intelligent (a lawyer) and is still seething from his loss in Grenada.

Did you know that Grenada was potentially another Cuban Missile Crisis? It's regarded as a joke but could have potentially been the whole tamale.

Oh, and by the way, I really don't care if you like Bush or not. But it was Clinton who was responsible for the current monster we face in China (MFN trade status circa 1994). We have no choice but to deal with them now. They're too well dug in post Slick Willie.

Keep it comin'.

All I can say is that I can't see MUCH difference in the "Dictatorship/Democracy" in Venezuela and the one we have right here under George W. Bush.

This statement is so patently ludricrous that I don't even know where to begin, so I'm just going to reiterate that you should be happy that you don't have G.W.B. for 25 more years like Venezuela will have Chavez.

Also, as I stated earlier, don't be fooled by Venezuelans "voting" for Chavez. This link and quote specifically sum it up.

http://www.electionworld.org/venezuela.htm

" The country is a federal presidential republic where despite democratic structures there is no fair chance for the opposition."

And does this sound like a Democracy or a dictatorship to you?

"Social cleansing"-type killings by police forces continued to be a grave problem, especially in the provinces. In the state of Portuguesa, a self-styled "extermination group" composed of off-duty members of the state police and National Guard was responsible for killing alleged street criminals and drug-users."

or...

"Miguel �ngel Zambrano, a former inspector of the Portuguesa police who had carried out investigations into the activities of the death squads, kept receiving anonymous death threats by telephone, and was beaten and threatened by police officers who confronted him in person. Unidentified individuals he believed to be linked to the police shot at him twice, leading him to go into hiding. In Falcón, the state police commander lodged criminal complaints against people who denounced killings for "insulting the police."

or...

"Nonetheless, on occasion the government openly interfered with private television programming by forcing private media stations to transmit government-supplied broadcasts. This interference was particularly pronounced during the week of the failed coup, when the Chávez government repeatedly interrupted scheduled programming to air its views on the political situation. On April 11, the Chávez government temporarily halted the transmission of the main private television stations altogether."

All found here:

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/americas10.html

How much more evidence is needed for me to get you to see that this is a dictatorship posing as a Democracy? They had a Gestapo-like police force that used violence and intimidation to squelch opposition and state imposed censorship already. Now they have "passed legislation" to keep Chavez in power for 25 more years, ala Mugabe. Connect the dots! It ain't hard! And yes, it is Venezuela's problem but if you buy from CITGO you are guilty of supporting this terrorism.

As for stealing the squeegee, Mom, just call me a "freedom fighter".

As for leaving Venezuela alone and letting them solve their own problems, JuniusJr, I'm all for it. But I'm not going to contribute to somebody else's suffering, either. I'm not going to beat my OIF Vet status into the ground but I like freedom and seeing what people do when they're released from oppression. Supporting CITGO is supporting death and oppression in Venezuela.[/i]

I don't know how that got posted twice. Can some moderator please delete it?

Thanks.

nhantimassredrebel, if Castro was so smart he would have had sense enough to treat his people with some respect so that they wouldn't row every floatable device across the ocean to get away from him. I know lots of lawyers. None of them seem to be overly intelligent to me. Some, like Castro, are puffed up with their own importance but that isn't any sign of intelligence.

I was somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 when the Cuban Missile Crisis happened. John F. Kennedy was President then. Kids like me were still hiding under our desks at school like that was going to protect us from a nuclear attack and they called that exercise an "air raid drill." I guess Kennedy did an admirable job of backing off Kruschev and Castro and I don't doubt that Kennedy later tried to assassinate Castro-- the Bay of Pigs Invasion. So, yeah, I guess I know a bit about the Cuban Missile Crisis.

And you are right, Clinton is the one who jumped in bed with the Chinese on our behalf. But Bush keeps signing those damn trade agreements one after the other with every South American country he can con. Chavez was at least smart enough to see what harm NAFTA did to the Mexican farmers and had guts enough to just say "no." That doesn't make him a good guy. You may even be right that a day will come when he will bite us in the ass. I see that as all the more reason to stay home and mind our own business.

As for the Panama Canal, we had a 99 year land lease. The land lease was up. Legally, we had to turn it all over to the Panamanians. Waht they do with it is pretty much up to them but I haven't heard any rumors that the Panamanians are even angry with us.

There were nuclear missiles on Grenada? I just read a short history and there is no mention of missiles, just Castro's troops firmly entrenched. Grenada, my source says, speaks English and has a 90% literacy rate.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107592.html

As I recall the Cuban Missile Crisis involed the Soviet Union. As I recall, Castro was our enemy the day he took over and so he made friends with Soviet Union who said, Castro, we'd like to put some missiles on your island pointed at the United States. Castro says, sure why not, they won't talk to me; they won't trade with us; so sure go ahead.

That was 43 years ago. Japan Bombed Pearl Harbor and we're friends now aren't we? Germany invaded our friends and killed Jews and cost us hundreds of thousands of lives and billions of dollars we didn't have to save Europe, but we're friends now aren't we? Russia developed an entire arsenal of nuclear weapons, sneaked into Cuba and used its might to get Castro's agreement to plant some IBM's there and point them at US, but we're friends now with the Soviet Union, aren't we? China has nuclear weapons pointed at us, is a totally dominating Communist Cruel Nation, yet Clinton gave them Most Favored Nation Status and Our Economy, but we're friends with China aren't we?

The American Policy towards Cuba is outrageous. This is a small country 90 miles from Florida and we treat them like dirt, worse than dirt. Why? Because they are communist? China is Communist so that doesn't fly.

I'm not saying Castro is a good guy. He was a revolutionary that overthrew the existing government because it was a two class economic system. Cubans were starving while other Cubans enjoyed millions entertaining the Americans. Cuba may not be the best place in the world today, primarily because it is starved for business because the USA won't trade with it on any basis...but Cuba is surviving and will find it's own way.

The hatred of Americans for Cuba is socially and morally wrong. We should never punish a country or a people of a nation because we don't like their official.

The same is true with Venezuela or any other country. We respect their officials, no matter who they are, until they do something to us. Then we correct it and let by gones be by gones. Yes, watch them. Yes, keep an eye on them. But never starve a country of people like we have Cuba to get even with Castro. It was the Soviets in Cuba and not Castro himself.

Cuba and Venezuela are the least of my concerns. But, I do like seeing these countries considering their futures and which road to take and applaud the decision to oppose the FTAA because it is the right decision for them and the right decision for US. I applaud Chavez for helping Cuba with lower cost oil because this will help the people of Cuba.

We've never done anything for either country, so we just need to mind our own business and leave them to theirs.

We're gong down the toilet hole, so when it gets right down to it, what we think probably won't matter much longer anyway and they'll both be laughing at US and they sip tea with C H I N A, our new owners.

They had a Gestapo-like police force that used violence and intimidation to squelch opposition and state imposed censorship already.

And, nhantimassredrebel--do you not SEE any correlation between that and our PATRIOT ACT?? Do you know that, since the inception of the Patriot Act, more than 1000 "alleged terrorists" have been tried and the Justice Department has not won ONE CASE. ZILCH, NONE, ZERO. Does that not sound like a Gestapo-LIKE police force to you? John Ashcroft would have given his EYE TEETH for a Gestapo-like police state. It's too soon to tell about Gonzalez and I don't feel QUITE so threatened by him but Ashcroft was CRAZY. Many people in our country, AND members of ALIPAC, are EXTREMELY concerned about the breadth and depth of this Patriot Act and the destruction of American freedoms inherent in it. Don't YOU have a PROBLEM with the fact that our Justice Department and FBI can actually check EVERY LIBRARY BOOK a person checks out? That SURE sounds like a Police State to me.

I agree with both Judy and JuniusJnr about Cuba. I think the US has WRONGED Cuba for YEARS just because of Castro. AND, I think we can draw a parallel right here in the US now because just look at what the REST OF THE WORLD thinks of America now JUST BECAUSE OF GEORGE W. BUSH. In just a short 5 year period, he has taken a country that was admired and respected all over the world and turned it into one of the most despised countries on the planet. Do you think that the AMERICAN PEOPLE should be punished just because we have a MANIAC for a LEADER????

Yep--Clinton sure screwed us on China AND this administration continues to perpetuate HIS legacy. For all intents and purposes, CHINA, a COMMUNIST COUNTRY, OWNS us lock, stock and barrel. Does THAT not bother you??

As for stealing the squeegee, Mom, just call me a "freedom fighter".

Frankly, I just don't consider theft a form of freedom fighting. I consider theft a form of CRIME--whether it's a squeegee or robbing a bank. I actually let my 15 year old son spend a night IN JAIL for shoplifting a bag of PEANUTS from a Kroger grocery store YEARS ago. I thought that it would be one of the most valuable lessons I could teach him and, to my knowledge, he's never stolen ANOTHER THING and he's 40 years old now. He can actually THANK me now for taking a stand and doing something that he knows was one of the toughest things I've ever had to do. It's called "TOUGH LOVE".

Hmmm, I can't go so far as to say that we have wronged the Cuban people in that we let them into this country by the thousands with no other criteria than they could set one foot on American soil. But there aren't enough good words to say about Castro so it is best to just ignore him and let him die in peace. I don't think he can harm us at all these days.

Actually, I feel more threatened by Gonzales, who I've been told is a former member of La Raza, than by Ashcroft. I don't know for sure that he was and I'm sure that every effort would be made to suppress that information or purge it from his personal bio if it is fact. After all, the President's history of bad choices for high appointees is well known.

I'm hoping that the Senate has the wisdom to see that the Patriot Act was futile and therefore there is no sense in letting it continue. It was said straight out by the President himself that it was TEMPORARY. I heard that speech with my own ears. Yet it has been extended once already, hasn't it? In October?

And, why should I kid myself! I hoped that the Senate would have the wisdom to build a fence on the border and attempt to stop the flow of illegals. That hasn't happened yet, either. Inch by inch, we get closer to being a third world nation while our government seeks to take away more of our freedom. Jeepers!

They've voted just within the last couple of weeks to extend it for maybe FOUR more years??? I'll have to research that one.

As for Cuba--I think we ought to allow TRADE because my son likes those Cuban cigars!!!

Here's the latest on the Patriot Act. This was reported on December 9th so I ASSUME they haven't voted YET.


GOP Seeks Quick Passage of New Patriot Act By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent
Fri Dec 9, 7:22 AM ET



Congressional Republican leaders will press for passage next week of a new Patriot Act to combat terrorism, but a Senate filibuster looms on a measure that liberal and conservative critics alike say is a threat to individual liberties.

"Just as the Senate did four years ago, we should unite in a bipartisan way to support the Patriot Act, to stand up for freedom and against terror," Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said Thursday as GOP negotiators from the House and Senate sealed their White House-backed compromise.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, issued a statement saying the measure would aid "in the detection, disruption and dismantling of terrorist cells before they strike."

Key provisions cover the ability of law enforcement officials to gain access to a wealth of personal data, including library and medical records, as part of investigations into suspected terrorist activity.

The measure provides a four-year extension of the government's ability to conduct roving wiretaps â€â€

I found this article dated today:

Patriot Act needs sensible limits
BOWING TO WHITE HOUSE, CONGRESS AIMS TO RENEW PROVISIONS THAT THREATEN BASIC LIBERTIES

Mercury News Editorial

In the four years since Congress passed the Patriot Act, millions of Americans of all political persuasions have voiced unease with some of the sweeping powers the act granted to law enforcement officials. Some 400 communities and seven states have demanded reforms.

And for good reason. The right to privacy -- the right of ordinary citizens to be free from government snooping -- is paramount to America's democracy, and a handful of provisions in the anti-terrorism law ride roughshod over it.

Last week, negotiators in the House and Senate agreed on a reauthorization bill that extends the Patriot Act's most controversial provisions, which were set to expire Dec. 31. They threaten the civil liberties of all Americans.

It didn't have to be this way. Earlier this year, the Senate unanimously approved a sensible compromise bill that reauthorized most of the Patriot Act with a few important changes. The bill granted government officials the powers needed to fight terrorism while providing basic protections against unwarranted government intrusion. It also called on law enforcement officials to account for their use of the expanded powers granted by the act.

With prodding from the White House, the House and Senate negotiators discarded most of those safeguards.

The proposed reauthorization bill, for instance, does nothing to reform the so-called ``library provision,'' which gives the government broad powers to obtain records from businesses, including libraries and bookstores, without having to show they are needed for a terrorism investigation. It also does nothing to curb the use of so-called national security letters, which can be used by the FBI to demand, with no court oversight, that phone companies, Internet service providers, banks and other businesses hand over their customers' private records. A recent report in the Washington Post revealed that the FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year.

Under the proposed bill, the library provision and one other controversial wiretapping measure would expire in four years. All other provisions, including 14 of those that were set to sunset Dec. 31, would be enacted without an expiration date.

A bipartisan group of six senators is leading the fight to ensure that this bad bill doesn't become law. They include liberal Democrats such as Russ Feingold of Wisconsin and conservative Republicans such as Larry Craig of Idaho. They have threatened a filibuster unless changes are made. Other lawmakers should join their efforts to pass a bill that gives law enforcement the powers they need to fight terrorism while protecting ordinary Americans from the potential abuse of those powers.