Trump: NATO is ‘no longer obsolete’

Trump: NATO is ‘no longer obsolete’

BY LISA HAGEN - 04/12/17 04:22 PM EDT 648

13,433

President Trump on Wednesday said that NATO is “no longer obsolete” — a big change after Trump repeatedly called the alliance obsolete on the campaign trail.

At a joint press conference with NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, Trump said that he will continue to work closely with NATO allies, particularly when it comes to fighting terrorism.

“The secretary-general and I had a productive discussion on what more NATO can do in the fight against terrorism,” Trump said at Wednesday’s press conference. “I complained about that a long time ago and they made a change and now they do fight terrorism.”“I said it was obsolete,” he continued. “It is not longer obsolete.”

During the 2016 campaign and after his election, Trump frequently criticized NATO as “obsolete” and knocked allies for not paying their “fair share.”

At Wednesday’s press conference, Trump reiterated his call that NATO allies “meet their financial obligations and pay what they owe.”

He said he discussed with Stoltenberg his desire that allies fulfill their responsibility to spent 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense by 2024.

Trump will travel to Brussels to attend a NATO summit on May 25.

— Updated at 4:25 p.m.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...onger-obsolete

The obsolete was based on their whole function which was "fight Russia" when the real threat to them is terrorism. They formed a Terrorism Commission during the campaign, Trump was very proud of that. And now the countries have agreed to pay their 2% for defense. Those were the two issues Trump had with NATO. If they're committed to fighting terrorism, spending what they're supposed to, then he's happy with that. I don't understand the CORRUPT MEDIA confusion with it, other than they're stupid and crooked.

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Originally Posted by Judy

The obsolete was based on their whole function which was "fight Russia" when the real threat to them is terrorism. They formed a Terrorism Commission during the campaign, Trump was very proud of that. And now the countries have agreed to pay their 2% for defense. Those were the two issues Trump had with NATO. If they're committed to fighting terrorism, spending what they're supposed to, then he's happy with that. I don't understand the CORRUPT MEDIA confusion with it, other than they're stupid and crooked.

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That's complete BS. NATO continues to be an anti-Russian institution and it is increasingly evident that was all NATO ever was. It had nothing to do with communism at all. It's not just that NATO is obsolete now, the problem is it never had any sincere motivations from the very beginning.

Trump had it right the first time and on this issue he has rolled over and showed his belly to McCain and the rest of the Republicrats. I'll guess the next stop for Trump following this is amnesty for illegals.

I didn't say NATO had changed its view toward Russia, pkskyali. I said they've formed a task force to refocus on fighting terrorism like Trump asked them to do. And if they don't come through on that like they've said they're going to do and are taking steps to do, then Trump can always pull us out of NATO. But if they've agreed to focus on terrorism which is what he wants them to do, I don't see any basis for pulling out now. We just need to insist they carry far more of the load of dealing with whatever threats they have, including the obvious terrorism threats.

When Trump gets with Putin and improves this relationship between the US and Russia, then the Europe hate on Russia thing through NATO will fizzle itself out. What that will do to NATO, don't know, don't care, but it would seem rather foolish for countries who can't afford to meet the terms of the NATO Alliance to starve their people putting money into military defenses against an enemy that doesn't exist. But of course that would be their decision to make.

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Originally Posted by Judy

I didn't say NATO had changed its view toward Russia, pkskyali. I said they've formed a task force to refocus on fighting terrorism like Trump asked them to do. And if they don't come through on that like they've said they're going to do and are taking steps to do, then Trump can always pull us out of NATO. But if they've agreed to focus on terrorism which is what he wants them to do, I don't see any basis for pulling out now. We just need to insist they carry far more of the load of dealing with whatever threats they have, including the obvious terrorism threats.

When Trump gets with Putin and improves this relationship between the US and Russia, then the Europe hate on Russia thing through NATO will fizzle itself out. What that will do to NATO, don't know, don't care, but it would seem rather foolish for countries who can't afford to meet the terms of the NATO Alliance to starve their people putting money into military defenses against an enemy that doesn't exist. But of course that would be their decision to make.

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Sorry, but this whole anti-terrorism selling point for NATO is an old one with little or no evidence to support it. It goes all they way back to Tora Bora in Afghanistan and the War on Terrorism there. Afghanistan is still a mess and the US is still doing all the heavy lifting if not all the lifting with no end in sight. And who questions the future of the US in Afghanistan?

Meanwhile, NATO continues to expand, now suddenly including Montenegro, which you approve of. What is the role of Montenegro in combating the War on Terrorism when the only role that NATO has in the area is propping up the terrorism based program of a Greater Albania, purging its neighbors of non-Albanians and generally destabilizing the region. Again, McCain is the starring character here and McCain must be calling the shots in the White House too. Rubio also has voiced concern over some mythical Russian threat.

Albanians and Bosnians are the greatest source of migrant manpower for ISIS as well. Albania is a major building block for the Global Caliphate for which ISIS is the cornerstone.

I have no problem with Montenegro being a member of NATO, if they want to be and the country is willing to agree to the terms of the alliance.

The NATO organization has a budget of less than $1 billion funded by all these countries. So there really isn't much expense to the US for NATO per se. The agreement requires each country to spend 2% of its GDP on Defense, not necessarily to hand over to NATO but to defend their own countries. We spend more than that and other countries spend less. That is the inequity that was bugging Trump. But, in reality, we spend what we spend because we want to, not because we're supporting NATO. Yes, our forces prop up NATO, but in reality, we'd have those resources whether there was a NATO or not, for our own purposes.

So Trump got what he wanted, he wanted more resources of the NATO organization to be directed on counter-terrorism activities instead of all eyes on Russia all the time, and he got an agreement that the countries will step up and improve their own defenses to comply with the agreement.

To me, the NATO issue has been satisfactorily resolved for now. It was a win for Trump, a small one, but perhaps an important one as time moves along. He gave Europe renewed notice, you aren't going to take advantage of US any more, you're going to find something useful to focus on, and you're going to do your part per the agreement or we're out.

It just took a good leader to straighten it out and get them on a proper track with their eyes and effort on real issues instead of the fantasy fears of a Russian Invasion.

pkskyali wrote (excerpt):

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Trump had it right the first time and on this issue he has rolled over and showed his belly to McCain and the rest of the Republicrats. I'll guess the next stop for Trump following this is amnesty for illegals.

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I feel fairly certain amnesty is coming, it's just a question of how much and when. Will amnesty extend beyond the DACA illegals? Not sure, but that is where it's going to start.

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Originally Posted by MW

pkskyali wrote (excerpt):



I feel fairly certain amnesty is coming, it's just a question of how much and when. Will amnesty extend beyond the DACA illegals? Not sure, but that is where it's going to start.

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I fear you might be right -

Also, why would NATO be expanding? If not to bait Russia?

We need to get out of NATO. Of course, that isn't going to happen as long as the military suppliers can sell our government so many weapons, planes, ships, etc.

That's why we are in NATO still - nothing to do with defense, terrorism, or our safety.

Novel thought, maybe there wouldn't be so much 'terrorism' if we weren't destroying countries and destabilizing that part of the world. Maybe if we told Israel to sink or swim without our playing protector for them, they might stop interfering in other countries as well.

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Originally Posted by MW

pkskyali wrote (excerpt):

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Trump had it right the first time and on this issue he has rolled over and showed his belly to McCain and the rest of the Republicrats. I'll guess the next stop for Trump following this is amnesty for illegals.

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I feel fairly certain amnesty is coming, it's just a question of how much and when. Will amnesty extend beyond the DACA illegals? Not sure, but that is where it's going to start.

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Sadly, Amnesty for DACA and DAPA will probably happen fairly soon and they'll probably make up a new one to cover everyone else too.

Hmmm. So you think Republicans elected all these Republicans to Congress to pass an "amnesty" bill for illegal aliens? Really?!!

Oh gee, I don't think so. I would have to disagree with that premise.

While we greatly appreciate everyone that has signed up on our social media pages and to receive our free e-mail alerts fighting against illegal immigration, this Poll is ONLY FOR ALIPAC DONORS AND VOLUNTEERS THAT HAVE BEEN ACTIVE SINCE 4/15/17. If you have contributed to or taken any volunteer actions since 4/15/16, please reply to this e-mail with your comments, concerns, and input or place your responses beneath our tracking thread at this link...

POLL RESPONSES
https://www.alipac.us/f8/alipac-poll-our-endorsement-trump-his-promise-end-daca-346058/

Before answering our short survey below, please review the following articles and releases...

Trump Faces PAC Ultimatum To End DACA Amnesty For Illegals (ALIPAC March 14, 17)
https://www.alipac.us/f8/trump-faces-pac-ultimatum-end-daca-amnesty-illegals-344837/

Trump’s base turns on him (Politico 4/13/17)
https://www.alipac.us/f9/trump%92s-base-turns-him-346032/

Rep. Steve King Is ‘Very Disappointed’ About Trump’s Inaction On Amnesty (Daily Caller 4/13/17)
https://www.alipac.us/f9/rep-steve-king-%91very-disappointed%92-about-trump%92s-inaction-amnesty-346036/

Terry McAuliffe says DACA and 700,000 dreamers here to stay (Washington Examiner 2/27/17)
https://www.alipac.us/f12/breaking-terry-mcauliffe-says-daca-700-000-dreamers-here-stay-344188/

Billionaire Stephen Schwarzman Urged Trump To Keep The Dreamers Program DACA (Forward 4/13/17)
https://www.alipac.us/f9/billionaire-stephen-schwarzman-urged-trump-keep-dreamers-program-daca-346023/

Trump's DHS Secretary John Kelly: We Are Not Deporting ‘Dreamers’ (India West 4/3/17)
https://www.alipac.us/f12/dhs-secretary-john-kelly-we-not-deporting-%91dreamers%92-345632/

See? There's absolutely nothing to worry about regarding amnesty, because our Republicans in Congress are NOT going to pass an amnesty bill of any kind for anyone. Some of the Silly Senators and maybe a few Republicans in the House will vote for it, but there won't be enough in the House to pass it. No way!! In the House, I doubt it even gets out of a committee.

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Originally Posted by Judy

Hmmm. So you think Republicans elected all these Republicans to Congress to pass an "amnesty" bill for illegal aliens? Really?!!

Oh gee, I don't think so. I would have to disagree with that premise.

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Of course I don't think most Americans support amnesty. However, I think there is a better than good chance Congress will pass the BRIDGE Act to protect the DACA illegals. If passed, I'm sure Trump will sign it.

I also feel a more extensive amnesty could be coming down the pike when the border is considered secured. I don't know if that bill will pass, but I feel it is coming.

Miami Republican files new DREAM Act in Congress

I don't think the House will do that, I don't think they'll pass the Bridge Act. House Republicans have never done a Dream Act, so they aren't going to do it by another name, the "Bridge Act". That would be so silly and harmful to do such a thing.

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Originally Posted by Judy

I don't think the House will do that, I don't think they'll pass the Bridge Act. House Republicans have never done a Dream Act, so they aren't going to do it by another name, the "Bridge Act". That would be so silly and harmful to do such a thing.

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Unfortunately I think you're wrong. All of the Democrats will probably support it and I think the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, can gather enough Republicans to support it.

First, I don't think we have any Republicans in the House or Senate. I think we have politicians who are doing what it takes to make them wealthy - for the most part.

When a politicians pretends to be 'thinking about something or studying something' before making up his/her mind. They are simply announcing they haven't accepted a bid yet and the bidding is still open for their vote.

I do think there are people on the Democratic side that operate truly from a ideological bent - 'bent' being the operative word.

Now, it would surprise me if an amnesty as such got passed. What I think will happen, though, is 'amnesty by degrees'.
I think first the dreamers, then the parents of anchor babies, then spouses of legal citizens, then those that have been here a while and are of 'good character', etc.

I think it will be piecemeal - but I just don't see any movement our way in the foreseeable future.

Hmmmm. If you're right about that, then that puts the monkey on Trump to veto a Republican bill passed by a bi-partisan majority of both chambers of Congress controlled by Republicans.

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Originally Posted by Judy

Hmmmm. If you're right about that, then that puts the monkey on Trump to veto a Republican bill passed by a bi-partisan majority of both chambers of Congress controlled by Republicans.

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Why would Trump veto the Bridge Act? He has said he supports such a plan. Remember, he's got a big heart.

He won't need to veto it, the Bridge Act isn't going to pass the House. But that would be a tough call for him on a veto if they did the ridiculous and passed the bill. He'd have to veto a Republican bill passed by a Republican Congress with overwhelming bi-partisan support. Well, I'll just say this: if there was ever President who would do such a thing, it would be Donald Trump.

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Originally Posted by Judy

He won't need to veto it, the Bridge Act isn't going to pass the House. But that would be a tough call for him on a veto if they did the ridiculous and passed the bill. He'd have to veto a Republican bill passed by a Republican Congress with overwhelming bi-partisan support. Well, I'll just say this: if there was ever President who would do such a thing, it would be Donald Trump.

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Say what you will, but rest assured, President Trump is not going to end protection for those signed up for DACA. Eventually they will get permanent legal status (amnesty), whether it be through the BRIDGE Act or another vehicle.

If President Trump had any notion of ending the protections given to DACA illegals, he would have already ended the process of accepting applications. The writing is on the wall for anyone observant enough to see it.

Well that's not what the White House said. The White House said they were going to let it expire in June. So, all I know is what they said. If you've got some other inside track, you better hope Congress sticks to their promises and never passes a bill that ends up in the White House for signature or veto, because it will be very difficult for Trump to veto a bill that comes out of a Republican controlled Congress with massive bi-partisan support.

I just don't think the Republican-controlled US House of Representatives is going to let the people down in such a despicable way or put our President in such a position as having to veto their stupid bill or let his supporters down.

But, I could be wrong of course. We'll just have to wait and see and do what we do to kill any bill in Congress. That is what we do here and we do it well.

New DREAM Act Amnesty bill filed in Congress yesterday

ALIPAC Organized illegal immigration fighters!

Red Alert: On March 9, 2017, Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fl) re-filed a bill in Congress that would give amnesty, citizenship, and voting rights to millions of illegal aliens.

The article claims that Curbelo and other amnesty backers are encouraged by signals from Trump's White House that our President is willing to violate his campaign promises on immigration.

Here is the report!
https://www.alipac.us/f12/miami-repu...ngress-344717/

https://www.alipac.us/f8/new-dream-a...terday-344723/

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Originally Posted by Judy

Well that's not what the White House said. The White House said they were going to let it expire in June. So, all I know is what they said. If you've got some other inside track, you better hope Congress sticks to their promises and never passes a bill that ends up in the White House for signature or veto, because it will be very difficult for Trump to veto a bill that comes out of a Republican controlled Congress with massive bi-partisan support.

I just don't think the Republican-controlled US House of Representatives is going to let the people down in such a despicable way or put our President in such a position as having to veto their stupid bill or let his supporters down.

But, I could be wrong of course. We'll just have to wait and see and do what we do to kill any bill in Congress. That is what we do here and we do it well.

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I think you're underestimating the support DACA illegals have in the House, especially with House leadership, and we all know they have the needed support in the Senate. Oh, and let's not forget they seem to have Trump's "big heart" and support too. I'd say he's offered plenty of evidence to suggest such.

Let's say your understanding that the Trump administration plans on allowing the DACA program to just drift into oblivion come June is accurate. Okay, if that were true, how do you explain the failure to end the continued acceptance of applications for the program? That is very doable and easy. Nope, ending protection for the DACA illegals is not in the cards. Besides that, the BRIDGE Act will continue to allow new illegals to apply for protection (amnesty). My strongly held view is that Trump is continuing to accept application so as to not interrupt the continuity of the status quo until a more permanent solution can arrive at his desk for signature.

What if I'm right and you're wrong? Is that really a risk you suggest we take? Burying our heads in the sand until it's to late to turn the tide is not a wise option (IMO). We need to be doing all we can to head this off now before it gains momentum.

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Originally Posted by JohnDoe2

New DREAM Act Amnesty bill filed in Congress yesterday

ALIPAC Organized illegal immigration fighters!

Red Alert: On March 9, 2017, Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fl) re-filed a bill in Congress that would give amnesty, citizenship, and voting rights to millions of illegal aliens.

The article claims that Curbelo and other amnesty backers are encouraged by signals from Trump's White House that our President is willing to violate his campaign promises on immigration.

Here is the report!
https://www.alipac.us/f12/miami-repu...ngress-344717/

https://www.alipac.us/f8/new-dream-a...terday-344723/

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Certainly back my position on this subject. So now it looks like we have the Recognizing America's Children Act and the BRIDGE Act to be concerned with. Yep, and Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fl) is a House Republican.

Thanks JD2. ;)

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Originally Posted by MW

I think you're underestimating the support DACA illegals have in the House, especially with House leadership, and we all know they have the needed support in the Senate. Oh, and let's not forget they seem to have Trump's "big heart" and support too. I'd say he's offered plenty of evidence to suggest such.

Let's say your understanding that the Trump administration plans on allowing the DACA program to just drift into oblivion come June is accurate. Okay, if that were true, how do you explain the failure to end the continued acceptance of applications for the program? That is very doable and easy. Nope, ending protection for the DACA illegals is not in the cards. Besides that, the BRIDGE Act will continue to allow new illegals to apply for protection (amnesty). My strongly held view is that Trump is continuing to accept application so as to not interrupt the continuity of the status quo until a more permanent solution can arrive at his desk for signature.

What if I'm right and you're wrong? Is that really a risk you suggest we take? Burying our heads in the sand until it's to late to turn the tide is not a wise option (IMO). We need to be doing all we can to head this off now before it gains momentum.

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Sure, we need to be lobbying the heck out of Congress to kill these Dreamer bills and make sure Trump knows we don't support any amnesty at all for DACA's or anyone else. I would just stop short of all this broken promise stuff that attacks his character and intentions, I don't think that's helpful to our end game and it's not fair to him or this administration. No President in their first 86 days in office has taken more heat or done more for our cause than this President.

Loyalty is a 2 way street, it goes both ways, and frankly, I think our side of the loyalty street is looking pretty flimsy right now. Our job seems to me is to keep a Dreamer's bill from ever passing our Republican-controlled Congress and getting to his desk.

He's already been humiliated twice, not once, but twice, not just here, but around the world, for trying to keep terrorists from coming into the country. Stopped cold by the courts who essentially called him a racist for trying to keep terrorists from coming into our country for 120 days. What do you think they'll do if he terminates DACA? Just sit there and twiddle their thumbs? No, every college and university where these people are going to college will file a lawsuit. There will be enough in the 9th Circuit to get an injunction against the termination. So what was the point of it?

There's lots to do. We need to be lobbying for that $2.6 billion to fund the 62 miles of fence in San Diego and the Rio Grande Valley Sector and the additional immigration judges, Border Patrol and ICE Agents. We need funding for that right now, immediately. Congress needs to hear from us on that right now. I realize I'm in the minority here on this, but I don't think making DACA our calling card is the right issue right now, because it's going to expire in June, quickly and quietly. Trump doesn't need noise on this one, he needs time to let it expire. He needs noise on the $2.6 billion of supplemental funding and lobbying to kill any Dreamer bill brewing in Congress.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think out of 30 million plus illegal aliens whom Trump wants to deport, does the MSM focus on DACA who are still deportable under DACA? They do that because it's an emotional issue the way they depict it. "The poor Dreamers brought here as children by their parents through no fault of their own." It's the same mantra they used to argue and win in Plyler vs. Doe.

If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

But, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and views on this. I want to see DACA ended the sooner the better, but I also understand why letting it expire in June is the best way to do it, if that is still the plan, which I think it is. I didn't realize it expired that soon or exactly how it was set up until I heard Sean Spicer say that back in February or early Marich, so I researched it, and that seems to be the case.

I also understand why the Democrats, Never Trumpers and the Corrupt Media won't let up on it. They know if they narrate it right they can create an issue that will divide Trump voters, generate dissatisfaction, make people feel like Trump is letting them down in some way, and cause people who voted for him to turn on him. It looks like it's working, too.

I find that sad and disappointing. I know people mean well, and it's a new experience actually having someone in our camp in the White House. But if we don't learn how to handle it right, we'll be hurting ourselves and the millions of Americans we've all worked for so many years to save from the ravages of illegal immigration and excess legal immigration.

And that would be a tragedy.

Excerpt:

"Each day that the program is not ended sends a welcoming message to illegal aliens and signals to the American people that our government is not serious about enforcing our immigration laws. The DACA program—instituted in 2012— grants approximately 750,000 illegal aliens a reprieve from deportation, provides work authorization for two years, and makes certain illegal alien minors eligible for some taxpayer benefits. (See FAIR Legislative update, Jan, 24, 2017) According to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), it is still accepting and processing DACA requests under the existing policy. In 2016, USCIS processed about 750 DACA applications and renewals each day. (See USCIS DACA Numbers, 2016)"

https://www.alipac.us/f9/broken-prom...d-daca-345679/

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Originally Posted by nntrixie

I fear you might be right -

Also, why would NATO be expanding? If not to bait Russia?

We need to get out of NATO. Of course, that isn't going to happen as long as the military suppliers can sell our government so many weapons, planes, ships, etc.

That's why we are in NATO still - nothing to do with defense, terrorism, or our safety.

Novel thought, maybe there wouldn't be so much 'terrorism' if we weren't destroying countries and destabilizing that part of the world. Maybe if we told Israel to sink or swim without our playing protector for them, they might stop interfering in other countries as well.

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Israel is just minding its own business trying to protect itself, its citizens and its future from the antisemitic passions of its neighbors and Palestinian occupiers. What purpose would it serve to treat Israel like some sort of dead beat to US foreign policy, when it is really more like the other way around. Israel contributes to the US ability to see what is going on in the area and provide leverage against it and the US treats Israel like a damp rag.

Everything that the world has been suffering at the hands of Islam, Israel was already seeing 10 years before. We should have known better, but nobody cared. They were just Jews.

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Originally Posted by pkskyali

Israel is just minding its own business trying to protect itself, its citizens and its future from the antisemitic passions of its neighbors and Palestinian occupiers. What purpose would it serve to treat Israel like some sort of dead beat to US foreign policy, when it is really more like the other way around. Israel contributes to the US ability to see what is going on in the area and provide leverage against it and the US treats Israel like a damp rag.

Everything that the world has been suffering at the hands of Islam, Israel was already seeing 10 years before. We should have known better, but nobody cared. They were just Jews.

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There's a lot to discuss in that last sentence and I would really like to discuss it - but I'm not sure this is the place.

I will say - back away and look at things from a distance. Don't look at it through the lens of 'the poor Jewish people'.

Then see if you can't see a parallel between what happened in Palestine and what is happening in our country today, with the illegal aliens.

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Originally Posted by nntrixie

There's a lot to discuss in that last sentence and I would really like to discuss it - but I'm not sure this is the place.

I will say - back away and look at things from a distance. Don't look at it through the lens of 'the poor Jewish people'.

Then see if you can't see a parallel between what happened in Palestine and what is happening in our country today, with the illegal aliens.

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No that's just crazy. You have it completely backwards. It is the illegals, the La Raza's and their fake native American drag that is exactly like the fake Palestinian identity. There is not now, never has been and never will be anything like a "Palestinian". The whole thing is an antisemitic cult created by the WWII antisemitic mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al Husseini.

Not even the Palestinians themselves will allow themselves to be identify exclusive as "Palestinians", they are Egyptians, Arabs and other peoples who come from other areas in the Middle East. It is the Jews who are the only natives to Israel. They have returned from a forced exile brought about the Roman occupation and later destruction of Israel, the same people who crucified Jesus -- a Jew by the way -- crucified like so many thousands of Jews resisting the Roman occupation.

As a part of the destruction of Israel, the Romans deliberately evoked the name "Palestine" to describe the land that was Israel in order to erase its existence from history.

But Israel is back and restored to Jewish hands. There is justice in history. It is possible.

I just ask that everyone look it with an open mind. I realize it is hard to do that if you are looking at it from a religious view.

Whatever the ethnicity or race of the people living in Palestine - they were living there. That was their home. The Jewish people began coming in with monies from Jewish businesses and Jewish people all over the world. They soon were so plentiful, there were problems. There was resentment - much as there is right now with the illegals. It was Jewish businesses, banks, and wealthy Jewish people that were bankrolling their buying property, etc. In this country, it is some outside influence, but mainly, it's our very own government that has decided we have to finance their lifestyles.

Believe me, many of the Mexicans believe - the SW belongs to them and all they are doing is 'restoring it to the hands of the Mexican people."

Oh, yes, lot of parallels.

Now I'm not sure what difference it makes what people call themselves or what others call them. Does that make one more or less worthy of life and property.

American Indians are not Indians - they also are not Native Americans. There was someone here before them.

Just look at the national backgrounds or ancestry of the people in this country. We are a conglomeration of people from all over the globe - yet we are Americans. We are called Americans - a name that a didn't exist a few centuries ago.

Are we, therefore, 'illegitimate' people.

Just a thought - not intending to argue.

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Originally Posted by nntrixie

I just ask that everyone look it with an open mind. I realize it is hard to do that if you are looking at it from a religious view.

Whatever the ethnicity or race of the people living in Palestine - they were living there. That was their home. The Jewish people began coming in with monies from Jewish businesses and Jewish people all over the world. They soon were so plentiful, there were problems. There was resentment - much as there is right now with the illegals. It was Jewish businesses, banks, and wealthy Jewish people that were bankrolling their buying property, etc. In this country, it is some outside influence, but mainly, it's our very own government that has decided we have to finance their lifestyles.

...

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I don't come from a religious point of view. I am simply confronting easily observable facts of history.

In the territory of Palestine there was nobody there. The few people who were there included Jews who have never been completely eradicated from the area. It was a wasteland until the Jews came back and started building it up again. This was done by Jewish labor, not wealthy donors. Nobody cared about Palestine unless it was to take further steps to eradicate the ancient history of Jews in the area, as in the case of Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock built by Muslims on top of the remains of the Jewish temple originally there and destroyed by the Romans.

It is important to remember this. The Jews are returning to Israel, there are not colonists or settlers. They are returning to the place they came from originally. They had been driven out of their land and exiled and now they have their land back. This is right. They are not displacing or stealing anything from anyone. There has been a lot of fraud and performance carefully posed to make it look like the Jews are the bad guys here, but that's all they are, frauds and performances. Some of the worse frauds are being perpetrated by the Israeli government itself in a desperate effort to placate the antisemitic international forces, like the UN, who treat it not like a country but just another Jewish ghetto, a place to kick Jews around.

Please understand, I'm asking/discussing for the sake of trying to understand the mindset that is different from mine.

There were obviously people there, when the Jews came to Israel - again, both times they came.

Now as to their returning to Israel and not being colonists or settlers - I see that differently.

Think of the problems in the world if we just decided anyone who could get backing enough could return to their ancestral homes and when you get plentiful enough, you can rule the country. If the present day inhabitants don't like it, they will be determined to be 'terrorists' or second class.

As wrong as it was, as horrible as it was, people have been disbursed from most places in the world. We can't change that.

What we can do is work from where we are - we cannot right the wrongs of the past - we just can't. We can do the best we can to see it doesn't happen again.


As for the Jewish people doing great things in Israel, no one can deny that, but I can't accept that as reason enough for them to take the country. The Palestinians/whatever were living there. Perhaps the lifestyle was the one they wanted. I understand they did have vineyards, etc., so it must not have been a total wasteland.

But yes, right now, people with money, power and influence have encouraged and brought people into this country illegally. They have forced us to care for them, they have financed them, they have educated them and they are now making decisions and it will only grow with time. Some of these people do feel the SW belongs to them - they really do and they feel it is their right to come here and take over. Really they do. Some don't, they just want it.

So, if the Jewish people deserve Israel - then Mexicans deserve huge portions of America - and the "Indians' deserve ALL of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nntrixie

Please understand, I'm asking/discussing for the sake of trying to understand the mindset that is different from mine.

There were obviously people there, when the Jews came to Israel - again, both times they came.

Now as to their returning to Israel and not being colonists or settlers - I see that differently.

Think of the problems in the world if we just decided anyone who could get backing enough could return to their ancestral homes and when you get plentiful enough, you can rule the country. If the present day inhabitants don't like it, they will be determined to be 'terrorists' or second class.

As wrong as it was, as horrible as it was, people have been disbursed from most places in the world. We can't change that.

What we can do is work from where we are - we cannot right the wrongs of the past - we just can't. We can do the best we can to see it doesn't happen again.

As for the Jewish people doing great things in Israel, no one can deny that, but I can't accept that as reason enough for them to take the country. The Palestinians/whatever were living there. Perhaps the lifestyle was the one they wanted. I understand they did have vineyards, etc., so it must not have been a total wasteland.

But yes, right now, people with money, power and influence have encouraged and brought people into this country illegally. They have forced us to care for them, they have financed them, they have educated them and they are now making decisions and it will only grow with time. Some of these people do feel the SW belongs to them - they really do and they feel it is their right to come here and take over. Really they do. Some don't, they just want it.

So, if the Jewish people deserve Israel - then Mexicans deserve huge portions of America - and the "Indians' deserve ALL of it.

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I'm sorry, but you are completely absorbed in a whole sea of false beliefs, false conclusions and misconceptions about history. You say "the Palestinians/whatever were living there." They weren't. There was and is no such thing as "Palestinians/whatever", there were only Muslims living there as a part of Muslim colonization everywhere. Nobody ever, except the Jews returning to Israel ever identified themselves as "Palestinians." This is not trivial to the issue.

If you cannot distinguish between Mexicans and their claims on the United States, the native Americans and their claim on the New World and the Jewish claims on that little slice of land known as Israel, then you are unqualified to worry about any of these things. You need to dump your worry beads and pick up some references and do a little hard thinking on all these subjects.

But very basically, leave the Jews alone. Kicking Jews around is an old preoccupation for idle minds with an ax to grind and all the BS about "Jewish power and influence" doesn't have any respectability with anyone with any sense. And if you can't leave the Jews alone, you should know that the Jews are a lot better able to take care of themselves then they once did.

And they have friends and sympathizers with the same resolve. Tread lightly.

Is that last sentence a threat -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nntrixie

Is that last sentence a threat -

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No, of course not. I am not threatening you, I don't see how you could it interpret it that way. I am not addressing you personally, I don't know or care who you are.

All I'm saying is that anyone who thinks that it is an easy job to persecute Jews should try to see that the world has changed a lot. The Jews have changed a lot too.

Just leave the Jews alone, leave Israel alone. The Jews are just trying to mind their own business and so is Israel. Their persecutors are a bigger threat to us than they are to them because they are constantly on guard. They have no choice.