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  1. #1
    Senior Member cayla99's Avatar
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    Illegal Immigration and the Bible.

    I know on a number of sites, Illegals have been claiming we are unchristian and going against God. I found this article and I think it would be helpful to help put an end to that argument.

    THE BIBLE AND THE BORDER: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION FROM A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE
    By Robert Klein Engler (11/07/05)

    (CHICAGO--7 Nov. '05) Most social observers agree that the United States is a very religious country. By all measures of religiosity, the U. S. ranks high. At least 85 percent of the U. S. population claims they believe in God. Church attendance is high in the U. S. and so are donations to religious groups. With such a large number of citizens holding religious beliefs, it is little wonder that these beliefs are beginning to enter the debate over illegal immigration. To some observers it may seem that God and the border patrol are going to meet head-on.

    If the U. S. is a very religious country, then it is also a predominantly Christian country. Some 80 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Yale professor S. P. Huntington argues that Anglo-Protestant Christian beliefs are at the core of traditional American values. Anglo-Protestant beliefs, however, have changed and developed through the centuries since the founding of the nation. From the doorway of a storefront church on the south side of Chicago to the stained-glass windows of New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral, the U. S. offers multiple expressions of the Christian faith.


    Many Christians are now caught up in the debate about illegal immigration. Some do not know what to do to stop illegal immigration while at the same time living a faith that asks its believers to practice charity and forgiveness. Other Christians mistakenly believe that groups who are against illegal immigration, groups like the Minuteman Project, are immoral and dangerous. These Christians believe that illegal immigrants should be seen as people who need our assistance and compassion, not our judgment and condemnation.

    Does the Bible and Christian theology have anything to add to the illegal immigration debate? Are Christians supposed to act one way or another on this social issue? I think Christianity does have some answers to the moral questions raised by illegal immigration. These answers are to be found both in Christian scripture and theology. In my view it is possible to be both a good Christian and have secure borders. It is also possible to demand illegal immigrants be deported and to practice Christian charity.

    In chapter 13 of the apostle Paul's Letter to the Romans, the English translation reads, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed..." (Romans 13:1-2). Clearly, this is advice to Christians to follow the laws of their nation and to respect the laws of other nations.

    When people come to the U. S. illegally, they are committing a crime. They are doing something that is against the governing authorities of the U. S. Illegal immigrants are not good Christians from Paul's perspective. Illegal immigrants may have reasons for breaking U. S. laws, but those reasons do not excuse their illegal actions. We should not let charity and compassion blind us from the criminal act illegal immigrants commit.

    Those who work in a law-abiding way against illegal immigration and those who ask that the laws of the U. S. be enforced are being good Christians in doing so. Likewise, those who demand that illegal immigrants be detained and deported respect the governing authorities of their nation. In line with Paul's argument, they are doing what good Christians ought to do.

    This is not to say that illegal immigrants should be treated badly. Christians practice charity and respect for the individual, but they do not condone law breaking. Law-abiding citizens of the U. S. have every right to make sure their borders are secure and that illegal immigrants are removed from their country as quickly and humanely as possible.

    There are ideas implied in Paul's other writings that also shed light on the contemporary issue of illegal immigration. In his Letter to Philemon, Paul address the issue of what is to be done about a runaway slave. In short, Paul sends back the runaway slave, Onesimus, and encourages his master, Philemon, to accept and forgive him. This may seem an unusual act by Paul to those who know that under Roman law, the master had absolute authority over the life and person of the slave.

    Although illegal immigrants are not slaves the way Onesimus was a slave in the apostle Paul's time, we can see illegal immigrants today as persons running away from their moral obligations to improve their own country and not run down ours. If that is the case, then it is certainly a moral and Christian thing to encourage illegal immigrants to return home and make life better in their own country.

    Moving from scripture to the domain of Christian theology, we learn that moral actions have both an objective and subjective component. The theologian Thomas Aquinas held that both subjective intention and objective consequence are necessary in making a moral judgment. In one of Thomas's examples, while out hunting it is better to kill your father believing he is a stag, than to kill a stag believing it is your father.

    >From the point of view of the moral theology of Thomas Aquinas, we may judge illegal immigrants from Mexico from both a subjective and objective point of view. Objectively, illegal immigrants are breaking U. S. immigration laws, but do these criminals have a subjective intention that outweighs the objective criminal act? Is breaking U. S. immigration laws justified because it is the only way poor Mexicans can feed their families, or do illegal immigrants who come to the U. S. have another choice?

    Coming to the U. S. illegally is not the only choice poor Mexicans can make to improve their lives. They could also choose to stay in Mexico and work to make Mexico a better country. In fact, as good Christians it is their moral obligation to do this. It is better to improve Mexico than to be a criminal in the U. S. Illegal immigration may be the easy way out, but it is not the moral way. Christians are supposed to do what is good, even if the good is difficult to do.

    Although Christianity encourages acts of charity, we cannot be both charitable and law breakers. We cannot rob Peter to pay Paul. The Archbishop of Mexico City should be encouraged to prevent Mexicans from coming illegally to the U. S. He should encourage Mexicans to work for Christian social change in Mexico instead of criticizing U. S. immigration policies. Unless the Mexican state changes, many Mexican citizens will never be able to have a fulfilled life. Nor can they find fulfillment by breaking U. S. immigration laws. To push the poor from your door to your neighbor's door is not an example of Christian charity.

    It remains to be seen what other religious questions will be raised about illegal immigration to the U. S. It seems clear for the moment that as the debate over illegal immigration grows, so, too will the theological and scriptural debate over this issue grow. It may very well be that just as liberal Christianity in the U. S. inspired the civil rights movement of the late 20th century, so, conservative Christianity will inspire the secure border movement of the early 21st century.

    http://www.americandaily.com/article/10073
    Proud American and wife of a wonderful LEGAL immigrant from Ireland.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rawhide's Avatar
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    WOW That was a great arguement for any of us Christians to use/borrow from when we are debated on our stance against illegals.
    Thanks for posting this Cayla99 it is very inspiring and helpful.

    Rawhide!

  3. #3
    Senior Member cayla99's Avatar
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    I felt the same way. I thought it would be helpful when they use the "God" argument to justify breaking our laws. It is more powerful than any of the lame arguments I had. I knew I was right of course but I had some problems documenting it. I thought others may be suffering from the same problem.
    Proud American and wife of a wonderful LEGAL immigrant from Ireland.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

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    Just because you are hungry is no excuse to break the law. Prisons are full of criminal that want more and they do so by breaking the law. There is not one set of laws for illegals and one set of Americans.
    The bible is full of information on what it means to be christian and some of those ministers who harbor illegals are breaking GOD law as well as man's.

  5. #5
    Senior Member cayla99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dyehard39
    Just because you are hungry is no excuse to break the law. Prisons are full of criminal that want more and they do so by breaking the law. There is not one set of laws for illegals and one set of Americans.
    The bible is full of information on what it means to be christian and some of those ministers who harbor illegals are breaking GOD law as well as man's.
    I wish we could get that through Cardinal Mahoney's skull
    Proud American and wife of a wonderful LEGAL immigrant from Ireland.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

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    Senior Member SicNTiredInSoCal's Avatar
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    I wish we could get that through Cardinal Mahoney's skull

    Interesting. The Catholic church is corrupting itself from the inside out for a long time now. Guess that they are losing too much money and need some new "members"?
    It's immoral to vote for any candidate who is not going to uphold the fundamental tenets of our Constitution ~ Chuck Baldwin

  7. #7
    Senior Member cayla99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicNTiredInSoCal
    I wish we could get that through Cardinal Mahoney's skull

    Interesting. The Catholic church is corrupting itself from the inside out for a long time now. Guess that they are losing too much money and need some new "members"?
    No doubt in my mind it is money driving the church.
    Proud American and wife of a wonderful LEGAL immigrant from Ireland.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

  8. #8
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    Alien in a foreign land did not have the same rights as a naturalized citizen.

    Acts 7;6....God spoke to this effect, that his seed would be alien residents in a foreign land and the people would enslave them and afflict them for four hundred years."
    1.

    Rom 13;17….let every soul be in subjection to superior authorities.
    Titus 3;1..be obedient to government and authorities as rulers.
    Luke 2;1-5…a decree went forth from Caesar for all the inhabited earth to be registered
    Acts 24;16…I am exercising myself continually …of committing no offense to GOD and men. (they are breaking our laws and GOD’s laws.)

    Rom 13;2-4…"he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of GOD…those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment..if you are doing what is bad, be in fear.
    Christians who subject themselves to proper authority of political government receive benefits….Rom 13;3,4….1Pet 2;12-14.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SANCTUARY AND CITIES OF REFUGE;

    The Sanctuary is a part of Temple or the Synagogue and has nothing to do with a place to harboring criminals as in the churches of today.

    Jehovah’s arrangement for the protection of unintentional manslayers was from the so-called cities of refuge and other sanctuaries set up by ancient pagan nations and by Christendom’s churches down through he ages.
    There is no sanctuary in a place of worship for an illegal alien, who is a criminal because they have broken the law of our land, to take refuge from prosecution.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

    "Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

    IT IS ILLEGAL FOR NONPROFIT OR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS to knowingly assist an employer to violate employment sanctions, REGARDLESS OF CLAIMS THAT THEIR CONVICTIONS REQUIRE THEM TO ASSIST ALIENS. Harboring or aiding illegal aliens is not protected by the First Amendment. It is a felony to establish a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of federal immigration law. Violators may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years. A place set apart for the worship of God or of gods, a holy place.
    1 Chron 22;19. Isa 16;12. Ezek 28;18. Amos 7;9,13. Deut 12;11.

    Cities of refuge were established by God where unintentional manslayer could go for protection from those who wanted to take revenge.
    Deut 19;4,5. Num 35;6-22. Josh 20;2-9.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Aliens, Foreigners, Visitors, Settlers and Strangers.

    They were, in the 1st century subject to the laws of the Israelites given to them by God. It is not to be confused with obeying superior authorities in the New Testament.

    In the bible "alien resident" refers to a settler in the land of Palestine who was content to live among the Israelites, obeying the laws of the land but not fully accepting the worship of Jehovah.
    Deut 5;14, 1;18, Lev 22;10.

    Ammonites and Moabites were prohibited "to the tenth generation"...to time indefinite...Deut.23;3-6
    The alien resident who had become a circumcised worshiper was bound to one law with the Israelites..to obey all the terms of the Law covenant.
    Lev 24;22

    Alien residents, not having any land inheritance, ...some were slaves.
    .Lev 25;44-46

    In governmental matters had no political status and could never become a king. Deut 17;15.

    The Israelites experienced many outrages at the hands of foreigner.
    Lam 2;5-12,19-22.
    Jews were in constant conflict with the foreigner around them... 1 kings 8;41-43; 2 Chor 6;32,33; Isa. 56;6,7.

    The citizens of this country are subject to the law of this country. Aliens, foreigners and visitors are also subject to our laws and they do not have any right to change them or protest against them. They have no rights except those we give them.
    Americans citizens do not break the laws just because they do not agree with them. We have a voting system that we use to change laws we do not agree with. If anyone breads those laws they are criminals and subject to the consequence set forth in the laws.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Boundaries (borders)

    Boundaries were set in place by God from the beginning of time and for a reason. Gen 4;10,11....3;23,24...

    Gen 15;18-21. Ex 23;31..... To Abraham and his seed God promised a certain land with definitely stated boundaries.

    Gen 15;13-16.....would enforce an eviction decree when "the error of the Amorites" came to its completion.

    Deut 2;4,5,18,19....Jehovah God also decreed that the Israelites would not encrouch on the boundaries of the nations of Edom, ....

    Deut 32;8....when the Most High gave the nations an inheritance, when he parted the sons of Adam from one another, he proceeded to fix the boundary of the people with regard for the number of the sons of Israel."

    Eph 2;12-16....Under penalty of death, Gentiles were prohibited beyond that boundary, such wall serving the apostle as an apt illustration of the division created by the Law covenant.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MIDDLE EAST: SAUDIA ARABIA TO CONSTRUCT AN IRAQI BORDER FENCEAdnknronos International.com ^ | September 28, 2006 | Ram/Adnki
    Posted on 09/28/2006 2:28:11 PM PDT by WmShirerAdmirer
    Riyad, 28 Sept. (AKI) - Saudi Arabia has announced that it is pushing ahead with plans to build a fence along its border with Iraq. The 900 kilometre fence will be build to improve security and bar terrorists from crossing into Iraq, as well as to prevent smuggling. The barricade will cost an estimated 12 billion dollars, and will take between five to six years to construct. A Saudi security adviser, Nawaf Obaid, said: "The main issue is to seal the border on the Iraqi side since there has been almost no [Iraqi security] presence since the US invasion".
    Iraqi officials have repeatedly complained about millitants crossing into Iraq from neighbouring countries, to conduct operations against the US-led coallotion forces. Saudi Arabia wants to stop drug smugglers, weapon dealers, and illegal migrants from crossing into the country from Iraq.
    Iraqi interior ministry spokesman, Brigadier-General Abdul-Karem Khalaf, said Iraqi officials had heard of the Saudi plans, "and we thank them for it."
    Khalaf added: "If the Saudis
    A new fence is added to a border town already split
    By Hassan M. Fattah The New York Times

    Published: October 11, 2006


    THE FENCE AT GHAJAR,
    According to our sources, the "wall" will be composed of five elements: A. An earthwork raised at its highest point to 3 meters, tall enough to block the path of four-wheeled drive vehicles. B. Deep trenches to prevent the crossing of light and heavy vehicles, to be dug in places where the earthwork cannot be raised to a sufficient height because of the lie of the land. C. Reinforced concrete cubes to block the many gulches and crevasses riddling the area. D. Water obstacles to obstruct river traffic. E. Electronic sensors scattered along the barrier’s length that will serve the same function as an electronic fence. F. The unit in charge of the barrier’s operation will have the use of a fleet of light spy and surveillance aircraft, helicopter gunships and drones. Its command center and air fleet will be linked to the spy satellites continually orbiting over Syria and Iraq.
    US Ground Commander Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who fought hard for the wall, has admitted the structure cannot be completely impermeable. But by obstructing vehicular movement, it can substantially cut down the volume of illicit traffic entering from Syria.



    Melilla border fence
    2. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    The Melilla border fence is a separation barrier between Morocco and the Spanish city of Melilla. Constructed by Spain, its stated purpose is to stop illegal immigration and smuggling.
    The razor wire barrier cost Spain €33 million (US$35 million) to construct. It consists of 11 km (6 miles.) of parallel 3 m (9.84 ft) high fences topped with barbed wire, with regular watchposts and a road running between them to accommodate police patrols. Underground cables connect spotlights, noise and movement sensors, and video cameras to a central control booth. Its height is currently being doubled to 6 m.
    In September and October 2005, during a crisis of mass intrusions of African immigrants camping on nearby mount Gurugú, the Spanish Government decided to double the height of the fence and add devices to harmlessly slow intruders.In October 2005, over 700 subsaharian migrants tried to enter Spanish territory from the Moroccan border. Many of them were shot in the back allegedly by the Moroccan Gendarmerie. Amnesty International and Médecins Sans FrontiPres have accused the Moroccan government of dumping over 500 refugees in the Sahara Desert without food or water supplies.
    Morocco has objected to the construction of the barrier. All other countries consider Melilla to be an integral part of Spain.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator working4change's Avatar
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    Excellent debating tool. Thanks Cayla I am sending this to several of my friends as well.
    The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. Plato

  10. #10
    Senior Member Gogo's Avatar
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    Thanks Cayla I have quoted Romans 13:1-5 many times. I find the illegals like to find one or two scriptures that they try to fit their situations but is out of context. In the end the final judge will make it clear to them and unfortunately it won't be good.

    A pastor of a church and the president of a theology school had this exact situation in his church. He found a couple in the church was here illegally. The balance of obeying scripture and showing compassion was NOT sanctuary. He told them they must go back to their country of origin and apply to come in legally or they could no longer attend or be members of the church. However, he said, if their employer with sponsor them then the church would also sponsor them to come back into the country legally. As good Christians that is what the couple did. That was approx 25 years ago. They are now citizens, obeying God's law and man's law. The discipline given to them freed them from fear and blessed them in many way. They still attend John's church.



    This is the author of the articles credentials:

    Robert Klein Engler lives in Chicago. He is a graduate of the University of Chicago Divinity School. His book, A WINTER OF WORDS, about the turmoil at Daley College, is available from amazon.com.

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