Thread: Working the problem: It's not as simple as immigrants vs. na

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3165322

Working the problem: It's not as simple as immigrants vs. natives
Mason Stockstill, Staff Writer



The issue prompts philosophical musings about what rights citizens and legal immigrants should have whether jobs in this country belong exclusively to them, or if higher average wages for native workers should be protected. It's also the area where the impact of immigration is the most clearly defined and easily studied.

Other concerns about immigration's economic effect are more open to debate. Undocumented aliens might be a drain on government resources if they use services such as county hospitals and public schools, but their purchasing power and low-wage labor can help keep a weak economy humming. Immigrants irritate some people by using their native languages, but they also bring diversity and new cultural experiences across the border with them.

But their impact on the employment picture is simple and straightforward. When more workers are added to the labor pool, the existing workers face more competition for jobs. It's basic economic theory.

And when illegal immigrants from poorer countries will work for less pay or, in the case of some, for cash under the table, allowing employers to avoid payroll taxes workers already here are at a significant disadvantage.

"Whoever is in competition with the immigrants will lose," said Steven Camarota, director of research at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Immigration Studies. Those in unskilled jobs are most at risk, he said. "If you're a U.S.-born nanny, or a U.S.-born janitor or agricultural worker, or construction worker, you lose."

A study released by the center late last year offers a stark look at what that means. Analyzing U.S. Census data, Camarota found that from March 2000 to March 2004, unemployment among native-born workers grew by 2.3 million and employment among immigrant workers increased by the same amount.

The impact is greatest among workers in fields classified as "low-skilled" agriculture, the service industry and some forms of construction work, for example.

A 2004 study by researchers at Northeastern University in Boston analyzed the same data, and came to similar conclusions. "The share of national labor force growth accounted for by new immigrants is historically unprecedented," said Andrew Sum, the study's lead author.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. According to a study by the American Immigration Law Foundation, immigrant workers helped the economy grow during the 1990s by supplying needed labor that couldn't be found elsewhere.

In many job categories, the study found that overall employment would have shrunk in that decade were it not for the influx of foreign workers because there weren't enough unemployed native workers to fill those positions.

Even if all unemployed U.S.-born workers who had experience in the agriculture, garment, housekeeping, maintenance and construction industries were hired into jobs in those fields that were filled by immigrants in 2000, the industries still would have faced a shortfall of 412,000 workers, the study found.

But Sum disputed that notion, noting that most immigrants who work in those fields perform jobs for which they had no training. So if the immigrants hadn't been here, unemployed native workers would have filled those jobs, he said.

"It's pretty hard to argue the employers wouldn't have shifted to a different group of workers and trained them," Sum said.

The impact may be greater than these studies show. Sum pointed out that two different ways of measuring national employment trends the U.S. Census Bureau's Current Population Survey and the Bureau of Labor Statistics' payroll survey come up with totals that differ by more than 3 million workers.

That divergence is probably due to illegal immigrants who work off the books and don't show up on the payroll survey, Sum said. "About half of the immigrants are probably working like that."

He also noted that the employment of teenage workers is lower than it's historically been, probably because they face more competition from undocumented aliens for minimum-wage jobs. Immigrants are likely to hold a job longer than a teen seeking seasonal work, and are therefore more attractive to employers, Sum said.

In addition, the millions of illegal immigrants who use phony or incorrect Social Security numbers to obtain work end up paying billions of dollars into the national retirement system. That money helps keep Social Security afloat, since many of those immigrants will never claim any benefits.

"Although such aliens may be residing and working illegally in our country, they are doing work for pay, they are paying taxes, and they are accumulating earnings records ... in the same manner as legal workers," said James G. Huse, the Social Security Administration's inspector general, at a 2002 congressional hearing.

Meanwhile, talk of aggregate economic impact and the national job market is little comfort to native-born or legal immigrant workers whose jobs were lost to competition from an illegal immigrant working for lower wages.

No promotion
For Carlos Monge of Ontario, the cost of illegal immigration was a promotion he wanted and thought he deserved.

Monge a citizen who came to this country from Mexico had worked for nearly five years at a furniture plant in Chino when an opening became available for an upholstery apprentice, which offered better pay and greater chance of advancement.

But Monge says the position ended up going to a co-worker who hailed from the same town in Mexico as the plant manager, and who had admitted to Monge that he was in the country illegally.

Both men later were fired from the company for unrelated reasons, but the episode rankled Monge, who sent a complaint to the California Department of Industrial Relations.

"I am a citizen and have 38 years paying my taxes, and I have four recommendation letters from four companies that support my seriousness," he wrote in Spanish. "I'm not going to remain quiet and permit these delinquents (the management) to continue doing this."

Monge's case is not unusual. Experts said immigration hurts the job prospects of other immigrants already in the country more than it does any other demographic group.

Rob Paral, a researcher with the American Immigration Law Foundation, noted in a study earlier this year that much like their undocumented counterparts, many legal immigrants enter the country with low levels of formal education.

"Both these types of immigrants compete in the low-wage portion of the economy," Paral said.

An influx of immigrants doesn't just make job-seeking a more competitive game, however. Economists say a higher number of workers willing to toil for less pay and lower benefits pushes wages down for everyone else in the field.

The wage issue
As far as wages go, the impact of immigration is again mostly negative for workers at the low end of the economic spectrum. In the low-skilled labor market, the presence of millions of people freshly arrived from overseas is likely to push wages lower than they otherwise would be.

That's because so many immigrants, legal and illegal, send money home to family members in impoverished countries where the American dollar goes much further than it does here. Those workers are more willing to be paid less than a prevailing wage because that small amount is still enough for them.

"There's no question that people who pick tomatoes or clean pools make less because of immigration," Camarota said. "There's also no question that people who own swimming pools have a net gain."

In fact, a 2003 study by the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found that immigrant workers have a positive impact on the earnings of top-level workers.

For every 1 percentage point increase in the immigrant population, the study found people in high-skilled occupations saw their income increase anywhere from 8 to 11 percent. For low-skilled natives, the negative effect on wages ranged from 0.27 to 1.14 percent, according to the study.

Additionally, the report found that newly arrived immigrants have less effect on wages than do immigrants who have been in the country for a few years. That's because the longer an immigrant has been here, the more likely they are to have learned English and gained new job skills, making it easier for them to "substitute" for a native-born worker.

That correlates with what other studies have found: Immigrants' wages increase the longer they've been in the country. In fact, their earnings go up at a faster pace than native-born workers'.

The average pay immigrant workers earn during their first year in the country declined in the 1990s, according to a study conducted by the Social Security Administration. But those reductions are later "significantly compensated for by faster immigrant earnings growth," the study found.

Yet, while the overall data may show a downward effect on job availability and wages, a different picture emerges on the margins. Given the right circumstances, a small handful of immigrants can be responsible for a huge economic impact that surpasses the numbers calculated for the overall pool.

The 'right' immigrants
Consider the hundreds of high-tech companies in California's Silicon Valley. Many of those companies employ thousands of people and contribute billions of dollars to the nation's economy each year. And many of them were founded or are currently headed by immigrants.

Intel Corp., the world's largest maker of microchips, was founded in 1968 by Hungarian immigrant Andrew Grove. Google's Sergey Brin hails from Russia, Indian Vinod Khosla founded Sun Microsystems, and Yahoo! co-founder Jerry Yang came to the United States from Taiwan in 1979.

Intel alone has more than 90,000 employees, and the firm's sales topped $34 billion in 2004. That dwarfs the $1 billion to $10 billion in annual economic benefit that a report from the National Academy of Sciences estimated immigrants bring to the country through their combined earning and spending power.

It's because of successes like Grove, and the benefits of having a huge pool of available low-wage laborers, that politicians walk a policy tightrope when it comes to determining how many foreign workers to let into the country.

"It seems rational to me that ... there ought to be a way to let somebody come and do jobs Americans won't do, on a temporary basis," said President Bush in August, referring to his guest worker proposal.

The president's plan differs from the existing work visa program in that it would allow workers currently here illegally to obtain temporary visas for a short period of time. It's been met with resistance from conservative groups that favor stricter controls.

Public reaction to immigration and jobs swings back and forth like a pendulum attached to the economic current. In tough times, foreigners are reviled for "stealing jobs," while many say their presence is tolerated and even encouraged when the economy is expanding.

For example, from 1942 to 1964, more than 4 million migrant workers traveled freely between the United States and Mexico, performing seasonal work in California's agricultural fields under the federal government's temporary bracero program.

That was during a period of low immigration. In 1965, Congress revamped the nation's immigration system, dramatically increasing the number who can enter the country legally each year.

Protecting U.S. jobs
Since then, the foreign-born population has swelled, and political efforts to address the issue have almost always focused on protecting jobs for U.S. workers. Though the centerpiece of the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act was amnesty for about 3 million illegal aliens, it also included strict punishments and fines for employers who hired undocumented immigrants.

Those provisions are rarely enforced, though. In 2000, just 180 employers were fined for hiring illegal aliens, and by 2004, the number was zero though most researchers estimate there are more than 10 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.

As a result, illegal immigrants work regular jobs all over the country: painting houses in North Carolina, scrubbing Wal-Mart floors in Ohio or cleaning restaurant tables in San Bernardino.

For some, that situation is an example of market capitalism at work: The job goes to whomever will perform it for the lowest compensation.

Others, however, draw a distinction. Between citizens and legal immigrants, and undocumented workers, the assumption is that one group should naturally have preference over the other.

"There is more direct competition that leads not just to lower wages, but to a change in who gets hired," Sum said. "It's hard for me to believe that's good policy."

The issue prompts philosophical musings about what rights citizens and legal immigrants should have whether jobs in this country belong exclusively to them, or if higher average wages for native workers should be protected. It's also the area where the impact of immigration is the most clearly defined and easily studied.

"prompts philosophical musings"

MUSINGS????? This is not philosophical "musings". This is illegal criminal activity flushing our nation down the toilet bowl of the Third World.

Other concerns about immigration's economic effect are more open to debate. Undocumented aliens might be a drain on government resources if they use services such as county hospitals and public schools, but their purchasing power and low-wage labor can help keep a weak economy humming.

"open to debate"

By Whom? Americans don't want debate, they don't want "musings", they want our friggin' laws enforced, these people deported out as fast as possible, and peace and harmony of the Legal Sort restored in the United States.

Immigrants irritate some people by using their native languages, but they also bring diversity and new cultural experiences across the border with them.

"also bring diversity and new cultural experiences"

Oh pleease, deliver me from this PooPSpeak. No thank you. I've got all the diversity and new cultural experience I will ever need. If I want some more some day, I'll take a trip somewhere. How about you all?

"Whoever is in competition with the immigrants will lose," said Steven Camarota, director of research at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Immigration Studies. Those in unskilled jobs are most at risk, he said. "If you're a U.S.-born nanny, or a U.S.-born janitor or agricultural worker, or construction worker, you lose."

That's right and when our low income unskilled Citizens Lose, WE ALL LOSE. That's why we have US Immigration Law, US Labor Law and US Civil rights Law. Duuuh, DoNut Head!!

That's not necessarily a bad thing. According to a study by the American Immigration Law Foundation, immigrant workers helped the economy grow during the 1990s by supplying needed labor that couldn't be found elsewhere.

"not necessarily a bad thing" Who are these people and where do they come from that think like this? Get them out too. We don't need that "ilk" either. A chain is no stronger than its weakest link. No nation is stronger than its weakest Citizens.

In many job categories, the study found that overall employment would have shrunk in that decade were it not for the influx of foreign workers because there weren't enough unemployed native workers to fill those positions.

So what if overall employment shrunk? If the jobs are being siphoned off to "foreign nations", how does that employment help the United States? It doesn't. That is a total lie. Now we're stuck with the body count and not enough jobs to sustain the population grown illegally beyond our means to support these people we didn't want here to begin with and that our laws protected us from.

Even if all unemployed U.S.-born workers who had experience in the agriculture, garment, housekeeping, maintenance and construction industries were hired into jobs in those fields that were filled by immigrants in 2000, the industries still would have faced a shortfall of 412,000 workers, the study found.

So what? It's lie, but what if it were true? Take your scummy jobs and export them, we'll keep the good ones, thank you!

But Sum disputed that notion, noting that most immigrants who work in those fields perform jobs for which they had no training. So if the immigrants hadn't been here, unemployed native workers would have filled those jobs, he said.

YES YES YES YES!! :P :P :P :P Americans have always filled the job market in the United States and now is no different. WE are Americans, looking for jobs, and WILL do whatever needs to be done. If your job opening is a crummy illegal sweat shop, non-OSHA qualifying piece of garbage, then take it on out of here and leave US alone.

"It's pretty hard to argue the employers wouldn't have shifted to a different group of workers and trained them," Sum said.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to argue they wouldn't have hired Americans. They would have hired them just like they have for 230 years.

The impact may be greater than these studies show. Sum pointed out that two different ways of measuring national employment trends the U.S. Census Bureau's Current Population Survey and the Bureau of Labor Statistics' payroll survey come up with totals that differ by more than 3 million workers.

Alas!!! The truth comes out. The US Department of Labor is Clueless or Fixing the Numbers to SHOW lower unemployment figures than really exist in the USA. This is fraud and needs to be ground to a halt this second and the frauds prosecuted for deception, misrepresentation, obstruction of labor, and whatever else a smart "Fitz" type bull-dog could come up with. Throw the book at 'em and show them the same mercy they have shown our American Workers....NADA!!

That divergence is probably due to illegal immigrants who work off the books and don't show up on the payroll survey, Sum said. "About half of the immigrants are probably working like that."

About half work off the books. Okey, Dokey. Now, we have 7,200,000 tax returns of illegal households filed on April 15, 2005. An average household in the US is 2.7 or thereabouts. So round to three. We know illegal immigrants have larger households because they have a higher birth-rate. So up it 1 to 4 x 7,200,000 = almost 29,000,000 illegals. Now DOUBLE for the 50% that works off the books. THAT's 58,000,000 illegals operating in the United States. EVERYONE with access to the information including the Wackident and all his Wackateers KNOWS THIS. I've said 50,000,000 and this is evidence that it's closer to 60,000,000. ONE-SIXTH of the US Population is ILLEGAL. And that is fact that you can tuck under your pillow or take to the bank.

He also noted that the employment of teenage workers is lower than it's historically been, probably because they face more competition from undocumented aliens for minimum-wage jobs. Immigrants are likely to hold a job longer than a teen seeking seasonal work, and are therefore more attractive to employers, Sum said.

Which not only robs our youth of incomes WE had when we were their age; it robs their future in terms of development into good workers and responsible adults; it robs them of activity they desperately need to occupy their time and minds and bodies. When you have to go to a job, you don't have time to run in a Gang. When you have to go to a job, you don't sit on your butt and watch TV or play on the computer chomping on Cheetos and becoming a statistic in the "OBESE CHILDREN CRISIS". When you have a job to go to, you don't whine to your parents for spending money, because you have your own. When you graduate from high school, you have a little nest egg, or a car, or college tuition, or a down payment on an apartment. You also have a resume, work experience, work skills. This robs our youth and teen-agers of proper development that will affect them for a life-time. Get these GROWN UPS from other countries OUT OF OUR LABOR MARKET and get our TEENS TO WORK.

In addition, the millions of illegal immigrants who use phony or incorrect Social Security numbers to obtain work end up paying billions of dollars into the national retirement system. That money helps keep Social Security afloat, since many of those immigrants will never claim any benefits.

"that money helps keep Social Security afloat"

That is total lie. Social Security is not "afloat". It is bankrupt during the the most massive illegal immigration invasion in the history of the USA. This is irrefutable proof these people talking this PoopSpeak are Traitors lying to the American People.

"Although such aliens may be residing and working illegally in our country, they are doing work for pay, they are paying taxes, and they are accumulating earnings records ... in the same manner as legal workers," said James G. Huse, the Social Security Administration's inspector general, at a 2002 congressional hearing.

FIRE THIS HUSE FOR HIS FRAUDULENT "RUSE". Get this dishonest lying moron out of our government.

Meanwhile, talk of aggregate economic impact and the national job market is little comfort to native-born or legal immigrant workers whose jobs were lost to competition from an illegal immigrant working for lower wages.

Righto!! No comfort at all because it is all a pack of lies. There is no "aggregate economic impact" to illegal criminal labor activity. Proof? Ok:

1) highest national debt in US History
2) highest national trade deficit in US History
3) highest personal credit debt in US History
4) lowest personal savings in US History
5) income gap rose from 20 to 75
6) American Workers lose over $200 Billion a Year in Deflated Wages and Salaries
7) state and local governments raising taxes to pay for the cost of this "aggregate economic impact"
Americans losing their education and medical facilities to foreign nationals
9) social security bankrupt
10) interest rates rising
11) inflation rising
12) energy resources inadequate
13) water resources inadequate
14) California communities suggesting drinking recycled Poop Water is a solution to the water crisis
15) growing number of bankruptcies, changed the law to get the house
16) growing number of uninsured Americans, insurance carriers absorb the cost of free-loaders making rates to high for American Citizens
17) Etc.

= "aggregate economic impact"

Translation - Turd Bowl

"I am a citizen and have 38 years paying my taxes, and I have four recommendation letters from four companies that support my seriousness," he wrote in Spanish. "I'm not going to remain quiet and permit these delinquents (the management) to continue doing this."

It's about time you spoke up!!

Monge's case is not unusual. Experts said immigration hurts the job prospects of other immigrants already in the country more than it does any other demographic group.

No, it doesn't hurt immigrants more than any other demographic group, it hurts American Citizens more than any other demographic group.

In fact, a 2003 study by the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found that immigrant workers have a positive impact on the earnings of top-level workers.

And like this wouldn't be a reason to end this nonsense? Like WE care about the "positive imipact on the earnings of top-level workers? No, we don't. In fact this is proof irrefutable that illegal immigration is 100% responsible for the growing income gap which used to be 20 and since the Wackident came to 1600 Pennsy, it is now 75.

For some, that situation is an example of market capitalism at work: The job goes to whomever will perform it for the lowest compensation.

This is not "market capitalism". This is RICO illegal criminal activity being used to flush the USA down the toilet bowl to a Third World Existence with the masses chained to employed working poverty or suckling on a Welfare State.

"There is more direct competition that leads not just to lower wages, but to a change in who gets hired," Sum said. "It's hard for me to believe that's good policy."

"It's hard for me to believe that's good policy". Well Duuuh!! That's why we have US Immigration Law, US Labor Law and US Civil Rights Law which are all GREAT POLICY and AMERICAN LAW to prevent the Infinite Predicted Disaster of a declining downward spiralling US Economy and all the hardship, suffering, job theft, wage theft, sovereignty theft caused by the Liars, Cheaters, Thieves and Traitors promoting illegal immigration, excess immigration, open borders, trade pacts, and Free Trade/Treason Treaties...all led by the Numeroest Wackident of All Time.