Yep, JP is the resident expert on this piece of traitorous legislation, that's why I suggested you come check out this thread, Greg. I'm glad you did. :D
Think you can talk a few more folks into coming over here and giving it a good look? 8O 8)
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Yep, JP is the resident expert on this piece of traitorous legislation, that's why I suggested you come check out this thread, Greg. I'm glad you did. :D
Think you can talk a few more folks into coming over here and giving it a good look? 8O 8)
Sure can :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by PinestrawGuys
[quote=GREGAGREATAMERICAN][/quote:qmsw9yx5]Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_48504
THE REAL ID ACT.
I tried to warn people before it passed but people do not listen now it is coming back to hurt them. Just like banks accepting the Marticula Consular cards, the illegals can get their own drivers license.
Read this from an article I put on the Home page today.
[quote]Cedillo said he was “pleased with the regulationsâ€
Thanks Pine, as a matter of fact, I have done interviews on this subject on a few radio shows. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by PinestrawGuys
It is just a matter of waking people up and spreading the message. Rep Jim Guest and other Legislators are helping me as well. I took on this issue even when everyone else supported it. I did my best to warn everyone who thought I was nuts when I said it did not stop the illegals from driving. But the newspapers are finally reporting that fact. They dont care if the illegals drive, they just want to have us in a national database and that's all there is to it. There is not any safety here, it is not about security and what does haiving a national ID card have to do with prosperity as the DHS spokesperson said? It is pure spin. Words that make people feel good and safe but do the exact opposite. Read 1984, the word Orwell created "newspeak."
Real I.D
January 14, 2008
This says something totaly differnt.
http://youneedtosee.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/real-id/
Who cares what they say on the news. They are not giving you all the facts in this short clip.
"The Databases are Hacked into on a regular basis"
"It will eventually affect everyone"
http://www.republicmedia.tv/index.php?o ... 3&Itemid=1
Pennsylvania Real ID Hearings Threaten $45 Million PennDOT Contract
Tuesday, 22 January 2008
Republic Media News Wire Release
January 23 Hearings Threaten Viisage Contract
Pennsylvania Legislature May Cut Funding
Upcoming hearings in the Pennsylvania House Intergovernmental Affairs Committee over anti-Real ID legislation is threatening a $45.5 million contract between Viisage Technologies (Nasdaq: VISGE) and PennDOT. Angry taxpayers, civil liberties advocates, veterans and theological viewpoints have been hammering on the state legislature to roll back Real ID implementation, biometric photographs, and other gains made by Viisage in their deal with the Commonwealth.
NBC affiliate, WGAL-TV 8 in Lancaster County, PA, broke a story on Tuesday, 1-15-08 about the existence of the Viisage contract that dates back to 1999. Veterans of American armed services claim this contract’s extensions that allow for the collecting of high resolution photographs by state driver’s license bureaucrats, and transferring them to the home office of Viisage, is unknown to most of the General Assembly, and is a totally foreign concept within the general public.
Included in this Article: Video Feature Interview with Rep. Sam Rohrer, Sen. Folmer's Press Conference and PDF Document from Viisage Bragging about the deal to implement RealID.
VIEW PROOF OF THIS DEAL:
Download the PDF Document from Our Files Section
James R. Compton, III, a 25 year veteran Navy pilot, has been telling legislators that "new Navy recruits are told not to acquire stock in companies that have DOD contracts, to avoid even the appearance of conflicts of interest. To have former Coast Guard Admiral James Loy pushing for Real ID while #2 man at the Department of Homeland Security, and then to exit government only to become a director and shareholder in the primary company selling Real ID implementing technology to the states is just plain wrong. We should not even be having this discussion."
Other former high-ranking government officials who promoted Real ID are exiting public service in favor of L-1 Identity Solutions, Inc., (NYSE: ID) the parent company of Viisage.
Aaron Bolinger (l) and Jim Compton (r) review legal books in the NVCCA Legislative Library.Compton and others are irate over the Executive Branch implementing Real ID’s provisions when both houses of the Assembly have passed respective resolutions condemning Real ID.
Aaron Bolinger and Jim Compton review materials in the NVCCA Legislative Law Library.
Federal government agencies pushing for Real ID include the FBI and CIA, and citizens are appalled that Louis Freeh and George Tenet also held or hold top positions with L-1 after exiting government posts.
"We would not even know of this situation were it not for L-1 boasting to their shareholders about both the PennDOT contract, and the number of former government insiders now working with these tech companies," Compton added. "Showing this to members of the Appropriations Committee more than raises eyebrows. This is helping us get hearings on anti-Real ID legislation that has been in the works for nearly a year."
RTR Media-Killing Real ID in Pennsylvania
RTR Media-Killing Real ID in Pennsylvania
Copyright vEsti24
WATCH VIDEO: Sam Ettaro interviews Rep. Sam Rohrer on the efforts to kill Real ID in Pennsylvania.
HB 1351, the bill that would prohibit biometric data accumulation by PennDOT and Viisage, could cause the collapse of a large Viisage contract. 69 members of the PA House have signed on as co-sponsors to this Anti-Real ID bill, and another 35% of the Senate are signed on to SB 1220, the companion piece in that Assembly body.
A hearing is scheduled on 1-23-08 under the leadership of W. Curtis Thomas, chairman of the House IGA committee. Thomas is himself a sponsor of HB 1351, so groups involved with the anti-Real ID coalition believes this is the beginning of the end of Real ID in Pennsylvania.
Pennsylvania Sen. Folmer--- Press Conference on Real ID
Pennsylvania Sen. Folmer--- Press Conference on Real ID
Copyright vEsti24
WATCH VIDEO: Senator Mike Folmer hosts a press conference in Harrisburg making public the Viisage deal and throwing down the gauntlet of resistance.
Last week, on the heels of the federal Department of Homeland Security (DHS) unveiling the implementing regulations for Real ID, the American Civil Liberties Union called the new regs "like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." Eight states have already prohibited Real ID by law in their jurisdictions, according to www.realnightmare.org the national Real ID tracking site operated by the ACLU. Other states are following suit this legislative session by introducing such bills.
Ettaro will be in Harrisburg to cover the hearings in video. Stay tuned to Republic Media for more on this breaking story!
Watch the videos. This is great News. It wont be long before we have some movement in NC. When the new Session starts in NC on May 31st!
The libertarians are similar to the liberal idealists in that they do not offer practical solutions to the problems of illegal immigration and border security.Quote:
Originally Posted by MW
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_48504
OK, now I can see why you are so adamant about this. You think this has something to do with the bible. That's why you won't give up any ground on this. I wonder if this is also why most other libertarians oppose REAL ID? The religious angle??Quote:
Take the mark, become part of the beast, but I will have nothing to do with it.
A CNET News.com survey shows that just over half of the states have signed up, while some have flatly refused to participate, typically citing costs or sovereignty worries. Privacy is another concern, with a mandatory barcode on Real ID cards lacking encryption or legal prohibitions against misuse, and mandatory linking of states' motor vehicle databases.
http://www.news.com/Real-ID-could-mean- ... ag=nl.e703
Connecticut
Connecticut has not decided whether to comply with Real ID, reject it completely, or request an extension to keep its options open. "We are still studying the issue. (Department of Motor Vehicles Commissioner Robert Ward) remains supportive of the concept, but no firm decisions have been made."
--Bill Seymour, spokesman for the motor vehicle commissioner.
Now I just checked my license and it has a barcode, I don't remember seeing that before. I have already written against this and guess I will have to keep on writing to reinforce that idea several times.
I think what cracks me up, is that most of these states were very involved in the earlier days of our country in fighting for liberty and freedom. Now they are like sheep to the slaughter..........
What happened to create such downtrodden states? They no longer seem to have it in them to "think" or "react" on their own without fed oversight and approval.
I thought we had at least kept some soverignity within the states, guess I was wrong.
Oh well, better get back to word, and keep on truckin.
I am soooooooo mad. Fuming. :x :evil: :evil: :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
Branded like cattle.......the nerve! 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
Is this AMERICA? LAND OF THE FREE AND BRAVE?
Looks like a major collapse of liberties, freedoms at home to me, if we let this thing take place.
Do not make assumptions Jonathan. That is not the only reason I will not budge on the REAL. I am not a Libertarian and I do not speak for them so do not label me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
I am against having a copy of my birth certificate, a digital photo and all of my personal information into a single database that can be hacked. Read the thread from start to end if you have any questions.
Please do not speak to me about this issue. I have provided my position enough to you and others on this issue.
I will work to ensure this law is defeated if I have to spend every waking moment and every dime of income I have to do it.
Yep, L1 Technologies and the like will make lots of $$ from this deal, and Americans will pay for it in so many ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by RealID
I have repeatedly read through these posts and I cannot find any plan that would identify whether a worker is an American citizen rather than an illegal alien. How can we know whether a worker was born in the USA from genuine American parents? How can we document the reality of a person's identity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Birth records would be a good place to start!
But aren't birth records a form of ID?Quote:
Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN
Should an employer ask for the birth certificate of a prospective employee and also look for documentation of his parents' birth or naturalization? In other words, rather than having a REAL ID Card summarizing all of this information, should an employer have to conduct a laborious search by scratch each time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
They will have a valid SS#Quote:
How can we know whether a worker was born in the USA from genuine American parents?
But ...
I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here?
As an employer I currently have many options available at my disposable to find the legal or illegal status of a person seeking employment… currently require two types of valid ID and a third documenting one of the first and back Ground checks… Chance are if Just one comes back bad in this state there something rotten in Denmark
It seems to me that a enhanced or REAL ID would just summarze the process you are mentioning.
But don't libertarians also object to Social Security Cards?
DHS official moots Real ID rules for buying cold medicine
Dan Goodin
The Register
Wednesday February 6, 2008
A senior US Department of Homeland Security official has floated the idea of requiring citizens to produce federally compliant identification before purchasing some over-the-counter medicines.
"If you have a good ID ... you make it much harder for the meth labs to function in this country," DHS Assistant Secretary for Policy Stewart Baker told an audience last month at the Heritage Foundation. Cold medicines like Sudafed have long been used in the production of methamphetamine. Over the past year or so, pharmacies have been required to track buyers of drugs that contain pseudoephedrine.
His comment came five days after the agency released final rules implementing the REAL ID Act of 2005 that made no mention of such requirements. It mandates the establishment uniform standards and procedures that must be met before state-issued licenses can be accepted as identification for official purposes.
[b]Beyond boarding airplanes and entering federal buildings or nuclear facilities, there are no other official purposes spelled out in the regulations. And that's just what concerns people at the Center for Democracy and Technology. They say Baker's statement underscores "mission creep," in which the scope and purpose of the REAL ID Act gradually expands over time.
"Baker's suggested mission creep pushes the REAL ID program farther down the slippery slope toward a true national ID card," CDT blogger Greg Burnett wrote here. He says requiring people to produce a federally approved ID to buy cold medicine is a good example of the "significant ramifications" attached to the act.
So far, 17 states have formally opposed REAL ID, which takes effect on May 11. Residents of those states will be subject to additional searches and other inconveniences when flying and may be barred from entering federal buildings and nuclear plants.]
Baker's statement belying the official DHS position on REAL ID isn't the first time the agency has made confusing remarks about the legal requirements surrounding identification. According to travel writer Edward Hasbrouck, DHS officials continue to plant the misunderstanding that residents from states which don't comply with REAL ID requirements won't get on planes. They will, Hasbrouck asserts here. In fact, he says, airlines are prevented by law from requiring any kind of ID.
Nonetheless, the DHS website continues to claim a photo ID is needed to pass through security checkpoints. Hasbrouck has his suspicions about the motives for such statements.[/b
"The most obvious explanation is that they want to use the implied (but legally and factually empty) threat of denial of air travel to intimidate states into 'voluntarily' complying with the Real-ID Act and its rules," he writes.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/fe ... 0208ID.htm
I suppose it would be ok to force everyone to use this id to buy food as well. No id, no food. No id, no job, no id, no medicine...
It might be a good idea to require suspected illegal aliens to show some legitimate ID before they could buy food, but then libertarians (and liberals) would likely object to this as racial profiling. What do you think of detaining anybody who could not speak proper English? Hold them until they can prove they are here legally? Would libertarians object to that?Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_48504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
That’s not that far fetched..
Have every one that is on a Visa or a guest just stop by and check in. Then look at the amount of people that we have allowed to stay as residence compare that to the people here legal crossed refreance with school and DMV records, Hospital records ect ect.. and the ones left over get a free ride the heck out of here. It will work the day they seal the boarders and start taking a real count of those that cross.
Let the ACLU types do all the work so no one is miss treated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN
Sounds good on paper, but does it work in practice?
People who intend to overstay their visas would not just stop by and check in.
And the ACLU types would never agree to "do all the work so no one is mistreated". ACLU types tend to be anarchists, IMO.
A biometric ID that is linked to genealogical records is the best way to determine if people are in the US legally. If they don't have the ID or an unexpired tourist or work visa, they must be detained for further investigation.
Libertarians who cannot handle this always have the option of living in the woods or moving to a tropical island.
People who want to LIVE FREELY without Government intrusion and are Americans have the right to do so. We have a paper called the US Constitution and our bill of rights guarantees it. Americans do not need to be tracked by their government. Anyone who comes in as a visitor of any kind should be tracked, but not Americans. It doesn't make them a Libertarian.
Unlimited freedom is anarchy and destroys civilization.
Freedom that is not limited by the LAW leads to moral decadence and destroys civilization. Just look at San Francisco and their sexual freedom.
It is fine to say anyone who comes in as a visitor of any kind should be tracked, but we don't know who these 'visitors' are. Since we don't catch them all at the border and we don't know who is overstaying their visas, we cannot track them. They just melt into the population. We need some way to determine which people are legal citizens and residents and which people are not, since so many millions of people come undetected over our border or overstay their visas. We need a realistic solution to this problem. A REAL ID would help.
Our Laws are supposed to be restricted to what the constitution allows for. It keeps we the people in control. The Real Id is unconstitutional. It violates the fourth and tenth amendments. The constitution also does not allow the Federal government to coerce the states into the Real ID.
Total Rule of Law creates a tyranny, something our founding fathers fought against and something I will too on the state level. The Real ID will be stopped.
Enforcing our current laws would put an end to most of the illegal immigration problems we face. Unmatched SS numbers sent to employers would have to be cleared up or the person is not able to work. No job, no income, no reason to be here illegally. No more social services or free education to illegals would also help.
Adolf Hitler gave everyone special Id's and look how that turned out. "Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it."
I never advocated the "Total Rule of Law". I just said our freedom is limited by our laws. We have freedoms that are limited UNDER the LAWS we create.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_48504
Since the Federal government is charged with national defense, it has the constitutional right to pass laws requiring the states to cooperate with the effort to remove invaders.
Your idea that we can remove all illegal aliens by cross-checking Social Security numbers does not hold up to scrutiny as millions of illegal aliens work under the table or work in crime ventures or are the non-working children or wives or girlfriends of illegals.
So if the illegals are working under the table without any id, how is it that forcing everyone to have a real id national id card going to stop them? Anyone?
Interesting topic, interesting question.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone can answer it. 8OQuote:
So if the illegals are working under the table without any id, how is it that forcing everyone to have a real id national id card going to stop them? Anyone?
It's quite simple, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHawkins
Their inability to acquire a legitimate ID exposes them as illegal aliens, while the ability for citizens to acquire a legitimate ID shows they are not illegal. If nobody has a legitimate or real ID, then it is very difficult to determine their citizenship status. Real ID distinguishes citizens from invaders.
That does not answer the question.
If employers are willing to hire them and pay them cash under the table and they are able to work without a real id and the fact that states can provide them with a driving permit, how is the real id (national Id card) going to stop them?
The answer is clear and simple, it will not.
What will stop hackers from accessing the databases or some unscrupulous dmv employee getting in, changing the id of a legal American, putting in a new photo and new address.
The answer is simple, nothing.
We all have read story after story of DMV workers caught after makeing dozens or even thousands of fake id cards.
We all have read the stories of the Chinese hacking the pentagon computer systems, the Department of Homeland Security being hacked more than 800 times in the past tow years, hackers breaking into department store computers, universities, lap tops getting lost, computers being sold with sensitive data on it. There is no fool proof database. If the pentagon, DHS, universities, DMV, banks and other institutions cannot keep your data safe, why would you want to provide them with even more to put into a centralized database which is to be shared with Mexico and Canada as well as other countries agreed upon with the state department?
As long illegals can find employment and are allowed to drive under the Real ID act, then the only point to the act is to track Americans, not illegals. Real ID opens us up to more identity theft, not less.
It does answer your objections.
1 People who do not possess a REAL ID will be detained until their citizenship status is verified. States must be prohibited from giving driving permits to people without REAL ID. Illegals who do not possess REAL ID must be deported after providng a retinal scan. 2nd offenders should serve long sentences in special fortified prisons along the border.
2 Employers will be reluctant to hire people who do not possess REAL ID out of fear they could be prosecuted.
3 Yes, there will always be forgers and hackers, but that is no reason not to create a more secure ID. Just because we will never crime is no excuse not to fight it at all.
4 Opponents of REAL ID have not offered another effective means of identifying and deporting invaders.
Real ID allows for illegals to drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
If our laws are not enforced now, they will not be enforced now. There is no incentive to stop paying illegals under the table.
Opening ourselves up to more crime via a hackable database is not the answer.
I have provided many suggestions, but you think the national ID card is a solution. What about sharing our data with Mexico, Canada and other countries?
Keep arguing, many have tried and many failed. You are no different. We can fight the by enforcing our current laws. It has been proven to work. Read the Home Page article. As soon as the new AZ law went into affect the illegals started to leave. Attrition through enforcement and not enslavement of We the People.
What about sharing our data with Mexico, Canada and other countries? That would make it a global id card.
I will help my state turn the Real ID clock backwards and I will inspire others in other states to do the same. I will work non stop until the national id card is put back under the rug where it belongs. I will not live like a citizen of Communist Russia. Show me your Papers. I will not be branded like Hitler branded his citizens.
Real ID needs to be modified to prohibit illegals from driving.
Just because a database might sometimes be hacked into is no reason not to have a database that can become progressively more secure.
You aren't serious about sharing our data with Mexico, Canada and other countries, are you? I am advocating nationalism, not globalism.
Yes, enforcing our existing laws certainly does help, but Real ID is essential to distinguish between legals and illegals at the workplace and during traffic stops or anywhere else people come into contact with law enforcement, unless you just want to ID anybody with a foreign accent or anybody who doesn't speak proper English, but the courts would put a quick stop to that.
A biometric ID will also help prevent terrorists from gaining access to airplanes.
And having a Real ID does not mean we will be living in an authoritarian state like the Soviet Union. Suggesting that is a huge exaggeration not warranted by the facts.
Just because we want law and order doesn't mean we want a police state.
Real ID will not be modified to prevent illegals from driving, just like the Patriot Act will not be modified to stop banks from allowing the use of Matritcula Consular Cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
A database is not sometimes hacked, they are hacked nearly every day. If you count 844 times in two years for the DHS system alone, that means on average, they were hacked at least once every day if not more.
Yes, the information will be shared with Mexico and Canada and other countries.
Enforcing our laws will reduce and even limit the need for forcing American citizens from having to be put into a national/international id system.
We have a system which checks every passenger now before they get onto a plane. Even people who are not suspects just opponents of some governmental polices have been blocked from flying.
If I have to show my papers in order to get a job, buy cold medicine and in the future any products DHS deems necessary, it shows the progression of the Police state which I refuse to be part of.
DHS has full authority over this program, in the further they can determine just exactly what information they want on this id and what information about every individual is stored in a national database. Argue all you want. The Real ID will go away . This is a system that will be sued to track Americans not illegals.
Real ID that allows illegals to drive will also identify them as illegals who can only drive back to Mexico.
Databases are not hacked to the point that they are not valuable law enforcement resources. No system is perfect, but most systems are better than nothing, and most systems can be made more secure over time.
Info on American citizens should not be shared with Mexico.
A system that blocks some people from flying and thereby errs on the side of caution is what most Americans want. People who don't like this policy can drive or take a boat. The safety of the majority is more important than the convenience of a minority. (Sob story)
We've been needing to show our papers for a long time now. Employers want to know who they're hiring, traffic cops need to see your ID papers. This is not new and is not leading to a Soviet secret police. Some cold medicine that includes ingredients used in producing meth need to be regulated to combat the meth epidemic.
A person's privacy rights end when they conflict with some other person's rights. That's why a woman is not entitled to a private decision to abort her baby. The baby has a right to live. Airline passengers also have a right to live, and that's why they demand a secure environment at the airport. If this bothers libertarians, they should go live in the woods like Thoreau and just stay put.
Just an observation here, but you seem to really enjoy telling American citizens what they should do and where they should live. What is the purpose of that, are you getting a head start on the new government?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
I am just saying that if people do not want to participate in the system, they have the option of living in the woods. Driving a car or flying on an aircraft or using any kind of public transportation are privileges and not rights.Quote:
Just an observation here, but you seem to really enjoy telling American citizens what they should do and where they should live. What is the purpose of that, are you getting a head start on the new government?
Americans elect legislators who enact laws that regulate the behavior of Americans for their mutual good and safety. Minority rights and privacy rights end when they trample the majority's rights or safety.
Driving is not an option and neither is living in the woods in the pursuit of happiness. Americans who do not want to be part of the system should not have to partake in it nor should they have to resort to living in the woods. The Real ID will not stop illegals from driving, even if they decide to not get one because they do not want to be outed by the system. So they will drive without one. With 20 Million Illegals in our country, it will take a long time before they are all caught driving.
The information should not be shared with any other nation but per the Real Id it will and is for those who live in NC.
The 17 States who told DHS what they could do with the Real ID are not all wooded areas as well.
The Federal Govt coercing states into this mandate is illegal and needs to be challenged.
So the terrorists wont use a plane, there are many other vehicles that they will use which can be stolen and drive get this, without any id.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." (Benjamin Franklin)
An Id card does not make me feel safe. Me exercising my rights does.
We elect legislators to read the laws they pass. They did not read this nor did they read the patriot act. Laws to protect the citizens are needed, but this law was never debated, it was stuck onto the end of a military defense budget. Something that had nothing to do with ID cards. They Shoved this law in because they knew it would not pass on its own merit. The Masses would not have allowed for it.