Thread: Two Students, Two Standards

Two Students, Two Standards
By Greg L | 13 April 2008 | Illegal Aliens, Virginia Politics | 22 Comments

The Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03674.html has circled back again to discuss the student of illegal alien parents that’s having a hard time getting in-state tuition rates at UVA, this time explaining in more detail why the legal status of the student’s parents impacts the decision about whether to consider the student legally domiciled in Virginia and thus eligible for in-state tuition rates. I have to feel for this student who is a U.S. citizen and a Virginia resident, while at the same time recognizing that this individual is still a dependent, and whatever benefit this student is eligible for largely accrues to his parents. But what about the applicants who aren’t getting into UVA while this student of illegal alien parents who gained admission is trying to get the university to lower his tuition rate?

Juxtaposed in this debate is another Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04052.html which describes how a student — this one without any questions about legal domicile — and who is only one of two National Merit semifinalists from his high school graduating class, was not accepted at UVA because his academic credentials were not competitive enough. With UVA only accepting 3,960 students out of over 20,000 applications, the competition for admission is extremely tough. Despite an SAT score of 2270, absolutely glowing recommendations from his teachers, and strong extra-curricular credentials which include writing novels, this Virginia student doesn’t even get the chance to attend, much less have a debate about what tuition rates should apply to him.

Every time we find a student with illegal alien parents who is clearly worthy of compassionate consideration and decide to provide that student with a break, the reality is that some other student is going to suffer as a result. For every Nelson Lopez we provide with special consideration, there’s a Joe Robinson who isn’t going to find a space in the admissions pool. That’s not to say that one of these students is necessarily more deserving than the other. Perhaps the way this all ended up was the most equitable result we could have hoped for, or maybe this was a complete injustice. The articles don’t tell me enough to feel comfortable with either conclusion.

These articles do however demonstrate that in the current college admissions environment, it’s not useful to talk about all those deserving folks who are worthy of getting a break while ignoring that all those who receive these special favors are effectively taking from some other student, and some other family. Admissions space in our public universities is not indefinitely elastic, making it imperative that the impacts of these decisions be adequately understood. In granting favors to the students of illegal aliens that appear to be contrary to the text of Virginia law, we’re ensuring that an admissions slot for someone else is going to be cut. From a straight policy perspective, it would seem more equitable to require strict compliance with domiciling laws that determine who is eligible for in-state tuition and accept that some rather deserving U.S. Citizens are going to fall victim to the policy, because otherwise a different group of some rather deserving U.S. Citizens will themselves fall victim in a much more arbitrary way.

As long as there’s limited space in Virginia’s public colleges and universities, there will always be the need for some hard decisions. We won’t always be thrilled with the results, but the criteria used to arrive at those results should always be as easy as possible to understand, and thus accept. Otherwise, as the case of these students demonstrates, it’s impossible to determine whether these decisions make any sense at all.
http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/1 ... #more-2262

This is my biggest pet peeve...the bottom line is illegal aliens shouldn't be admitted AT ALL to ANY public or private university. They are foreign nationals and must go home and apply for a student visa just like all other foreign nationals are required to do...and then compete in the pool for admission. Admissions at all colleges should no longer consider race, ethnicity as a factor ...and they should stop asking that question on their applications and financial aid and scholarship apps as well.

Any college or university in the United States that admits illegal aliens is basically waiving all the legal requirements for admission that are required of all other foreign nationals that apply. It is fundamentally unfair.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that UVA has a couple thousand seats set aside especially for foreign nationals (student visas). The real money is not made by accepting in-state kids. That's a fact! I won't get into the number of out of state kids accepted (higher tuition), however, it disgusts me to no end to see the large number of foreign students that are taking up seats that should be going to our children.

MW: You are right about that...in fact the Univ. of Illinois-Champaign-Urbana has a story out today about the fact that it is pondering on whether or not to limit the number of admittances awarded to foreign nationals because it is a competitive admissions school (the most selective of all public colleges in Illinois) ......

also to consider is that the foreign nationals on student visas for the most part come to study in the engineering, sciences and tech fields .....very rarely do they come to study anything else ....humanities, law, business...etc. and then they end up applying for H1-B visas and competing for high-tech, high paying jobs with our own graduates. H1-B visa holders usually are not saddled with high student loan repayments as are our graduates and companies will hire them at a lower salary than many young American professionals can afford to take. Often the jobs aren't even really being fairly held open for Americans first as the law requires...immigration lawyers have used all the tricks in the book to skirt around those laws.

Originally Posted by legalatina

MW: You are right about that...in fact the Univ. of Illinois-Champaign-Urbana has a story out today about the fact that it is pondering on whether or not to limit the number of admittances awarded to foreign nationals because it is a competitive admissions school (the most selective of all public colleges in Illinois) ......

also to consider is that the foreign nationals on student visas for the most part come to study in the engineering, sciences and tech fields .....very rarely do they come to study anything else ....humanities, law, business...etc. and then they end up applying for H1-B visas and competing for high-tech, high paying jobs with our own graduates. H1-B visa holders usually are not saddled with high student loan repayments as are our graduates and companies will hire them at a lower salary than many young American professionals can afford to take. Often the jobs aren't even really being fairly held open for Americans first as the law requires...immigration lawyers have used all the tricks in the book to skirt around those laws.

This is the group we need to reach. We need students in the streets protesting these types of policies for illegals and student visas. It's time to get people on campuses of high schools to understand what is going to happen to them if they don't contact Washington D C their state legislators etc. This may be a good target group for alipac.us and numbersusa.com.

MW: You are right about that...in fact the Univ. of Illinois-Champaign-Urbana has a story out today about the fact that it is pondering on whether or not to limit the number of admittances awarded to foreign nationals because it is a competitive admissions school (the most selective of all public colleges in Illinois) ......

also to consider is that the foreign nationals on student visas for the most part come to study in the engineering, sciences and tech fields .....very rarely do they come to study anything else ....humanities, law, business...etc. and then they end up applying for H1-B visas and competing for high-tech, high paying jobs with our own graduates. H1-B visa holders usually are not saddled with high student loan repayments as are our graduates and companies will hire them at a lower salary than many young American professionals can afford to take. Often the jobs aren't even really being fairly held open for Americans first as the law requires...immigration lawyers have used all the tricks in the book to skirt around those laws.

There is another problem with this issue that seems to be overlooked and I didn't realize until my grandaughter who will be applying to college next year came home upset about.

The rating of the school effects students being excepted in college. They had a rally for all the students in her school trying to push the students to do well on their Star's test.

She said that not only do they have the problem with 2nd language English students but that alot of the kids simply blow off the test because they know they can't afford college.

The school has gone to offering incentives for doing well on these test, like trips to Sea World, etc. I will have to look more into it because when I jokingly asked her if she could win something she said she wasn't qualified - She always does well and carries a high gpa.

This effects the students like my grandaughter who want a higher education. One student with a 4pt plus gpa and a football scholarship to Stanford almost lost out because of the school rating.

It is ashame that students like my grandaughter that have done things right and aimed for college are constantly met with these obstacles.

Originally Posted by MontereySherry

There is another problem with this issue that seems to be overlooked and I didn't realize until my grandaughter who will be applying to college next year came home upset about.

The rating of the school effects students being excepted in college. They had a rally for all the students in her school trying to push the students to do well on their Star's test.

She said that not only do they have the problem with 2nd language English students but that alot of the kids simply blow off the test because they know they can't afford college.

The school has gone to offering incentives for doing well on these test, like trips to Sea World, etc. I will have to look more into it because when I jokingly asked her if she could win something she said she wasn't qualified - She always does well and carries a high gpa.

This effects the students like my grandaughter who want a higher education. One student with a 4pt plus gpa and a football scholarship to Stanford almost lost out because of the school rating.

It is ashame that students like my grandaughter that have done things right and aimed for college are constantly met with these obstacles.

Wow I didn't know that. What about a transfer for someone who is intelligent but the school lacks the rating?

Every high school in the U.S. has a numerical weight attached to it based on many factors....the percentage of AP classes, the % of students doing well on the AP subject tests, SAT scores, etc. For example....a student with an "A" average from a low rated school would not be the same as a student with a "B+" average from a highly rated, competitive high school. There are selective admissions public high schools around the country too so it's not that private schools or public schools in affluent areas only get a higher numerical weight. But certainly coming from a public school that has a lower weight doesn't help those students who are quite intelligent and have taken honors/AP courses and a more challenging curriculum than their peers. Admissions counselors look not only at GPA but the type and level of courses taken by the student....a high GPA b/c the student took "soft/easy/basic" courses is not as good as an average GPA from a student who took Honors/AP classes.

But yes, students who have no choice but to attend schools where the majority of the kids don't even graduate ...let alone are academically prepared for college-level work...are at a great disadvantage. The schools that have to spend a disproportionate amount of resources on ESL and remedial teaching to a large population of illegal immigrants places the academic achievement and success of mainstream students in jeopardy.

from FAIR's legislative update:

omeland Security Helps Foreign Students Compete with U.S. Grads

A week ago, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced a regulatory change that makes it easier for certain foreign students studying math and science to stay and work in the U.S., competing with U.S. graduates in the domestic labor market. The Administration's new rule, which took effect on Tuesday, affects two categories of foreign students who study in the U.S. under F-1 visas.

First, the new rule allows foreign students studying math or science in the U.S. to stay longer in the U.S. if they are employed in a training program. Previous regulations allowed foreign students to be employed in what is called optional practical training (OPT) for up to 12 months after completing their coursework. (8 CFR 214.2(f)(10)). Under the new rule, math and science students are permitted to stay in the country for up to 29 months if they are working for an employer who has enrolled in U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service's (USCIS) E-Verify electronic employment verification program. (Final Interim Rule with respect to F-1 Visaholders, 73 Federal Register 18944, April 8, 200

Second, the new rule automatically extends the stay of foreign students if a prospective employer has filed an H-1B petition on their behalf. This second rule was meant to alleviate so-called "cap gap": the situation in which a foreign student was required to return to his or her home country while waiting for an H-1B job to begin or an H-1B petition to be approved because his or her student visa had expired. Until the change, USCIS could extend foreign student visas while an H-1B visa was pending, but was first required to make a finding that the H-1B cap had been met well before the student's F-1 visa expired. Now, foreign students who are the beneficiaries of an H-1B petition and have filed a request for change of status will automatically receive an extension of their F-1 student visa until October of the fiscal year in which employment under the H-1B visa begins. (Final Interim Rule with respect to F-1 Visaholders, 73 Federal Register 18944, April 8, 200

In a statement announcing the rule change, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said extending the stay of foreign students in the U.S. "will enable businesses to attract and retain highly skilled foreign workers, giving U.S. companies a competitive advantage in the world economy." (Press Release, April 4, 200 Jeffrey Oleander, a programmer and software engineer in Cincinnati, Ohio, was more skeptical. "If they were truly outstanding ... then they ought to have a job lined up by a month after graduation, and be ready to go back and work for a year before abusing the visa program to come back." (ComputerWorld, April 7, 200

To read the proposed rule, click here.