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11-30-2009, 04:34 AM #21Originally Posted by Hylander_1314
A national retail sales tax like the FairTax is an indirect tax and totally constitutional, no different than an excise tax, sales tax, tariff or value added tax. It's a tax on a transaction. A direct tax is an income tax and unconstitutional, which is why the 16th Amendment was required to collect it.
Hylander, we don't want our corporations paying tax. We want them to be out of the tax business, we don't want them spending fortunes on tax lawyers and tax accountants filing income tax returns. They also don't pay $625 billion a year in corporate income tax. All our corporations only pay $339 billion a year in corporate income tax, still a princely sum, that is just passed on to consumers with a mark-up.
We the people of the United States want to pay the taxes, we want to fund our government, we want to hold the purse-strings on our government, we want our government accountable to us, not our corporations. I mean you're free to want to keep our corporations in bed with our politicians, but not I, my friend, not I. When those bureaucrats and snake-eyed politicians are scanning the room to figure out who to scam for their next pork barrel, ear-mark or boondoggle, I don't want them going to the US Chamber of Commerce or the National Association of Manufacturers or the National Federation of Independent Businesses asking for more money, I want them knocking on my citizen door, looking square into my eyes at a town meeting and explaining to me a) how much they want and b) what they're doing to do with it so I can burst out laughing and tell them to go frisk themselves and add calmly, "oh by the way, you're fired for even asking such a stupid question."
As to the constitutionality of the FairTax, there is no question that both by the type of tax that it is, a retail national sales tax on new products and services, not used or existing products, as well as by how it is collected, which is by the Retail Collectors, the businesses who sell you the new product or service who remit to the states for a fee who then remit to the Federal Government for a fee, the FairTax is constitutional.
It is also voluntary, instead of mandatory. You only pay the tax when you choose to spend above the Famiy Consumption Allowance on new products and services. It's up to you how much you spend, when you spend, what you choose to buy, a new house or a used house, a new car or a used car, what you choose to save, invest or give to others.
You need to study the Federal Budget, Hylander, which is broken down nicely here for you so you better understand our actual receipts and expenditures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Unite ... ral_budget
Citizens of the US already pay 4 x what is collected from corporations in personal income taxes, and then we pay the corporate income taxes and their share of our payroll taxes when we purchase their products and services. So consumers are paying all the taxes now. We're just paying them in multiple ways, with mark-ups. The FairTax streamlines all that into 1 tax, at 1 rate, collected 1 time on a new product or service at the final point of sale, that requires no paperwork, no record-keeping, no time, no returns, no accountants, no tax preparers, no worries, no deadlines, no mandates, no reporting, no intrusion, no obligations, no fines, no penalties, no liens, no threats, no interest, no lawyers, no jail. Americans are free under the FairTax, while having absolute financial control over their wages, earnings, savings, interest, dividends, assets, gifts, estates and ... federal government.
Retail Tax Collectors, the retail businesses who sell new products or services, are the only ones who collect the FairTax, it's very simple. They collect 23% inclusive which means if you pay them $100, they take 23% of the $100 and set it aside to be forwarded to the state in FairTaxes. The Retailers are paid a fee for their brief time and effort, which is comprised of collecting the money, reporting it on their existing state sales tax form and sending it in less their fee which is 1/4 of 1% of their collections or the greater of 1/4 of 1% or $200 not to exceed 20% of the tax due. The states also receive a fee for their services which is also 1/4 of 1%. There's no new forms, just the state sales tax form with 1 new line added.
It's truly beautiful. For a family of 4 who earns between $50,000 and $60,000 a year, the FairTax is worth over $16,000 in new net expendable income assuming they sign up for the Monthly Rebate.
Our companies are streamlined, relieved of this horrible tax burden, our citizens and legal residents are relived of theirs and they pay only when they choose to go shopping or sign up for services of one kind or another.
Also, Hylander, there are trust funds for Social Security and MediCare. When these payroll and employer funds are paid, they are immediately invested by the Social Security Administration in special interest bearing notes and sold on the market so the funds earn interest constantly until they are used to pay benefits to the recipients.
The same is true with the Social Security and MediCare portion of the FairTax. By law the 8.09% is ear-marked and dedicated to Social Security and MediCare Funds while the balance of the rate of 14.91 is dedicated to General Revenue to run the US government.
It's a great well-thought out tax collection system, the best I've ever seen, and I've studied different plans in detail for years.
On wealth, the wealth of our nation is based on the wealth determined by the amount of recurring income and net worth of our citizens. I understand the pre-occupation with a gold standard. It makes people comfortable to think there's shining gold bricks in a bank somewhere "backing" everything. But in reality, that's a side-track, a diversion. Under our present system, the wealth of our citizens which is all that matters is determined by wages, benefits, earnings, assets, dividends, interest, savings, investments, retirement accounts and pension income less their debt. Having gold bars hidden somewhere under lock and key in the Federal Reserve somewhere or not, doesn't change that. I have no opinion one way or the other on the gold standard. if people want it back, fine. If they want to leave it like it is, that's fine with me, too.
As to the Federal Reserve, they need to a full-scale audit and investigation after which we can determine if the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 needs to be repealed. I'm of the mind that it does, because Republicans opposed it vehemently just as they opposed the Federal Revenue Act of 1913, and they were right about the income tax and I suspect they were right about the Federal Reserve as well. But again, that's a diversion at this time, a side-track.
There are two ways to consider a healthy economy. One is by the health of your money supply. Under this way, we are broke. By now, we have sent almost all of our money out of the country in the name of "Free Trade", which is why the Government has to constantly print new money to replace what we gave away. Another way to consider a healthy economy is by the GDP, the production components of our economy. By this method, we are broke as well, importing more than we export. As of 3 years ago, we are importing more food than we export, while Americans merrily continue to believe that we are the "bread basket to the world", when we aren't even producing enough food to feed ourselves. We have a bankrupt economy by both of these measures and any other measure anyone wishes to devise. We have to rebuild our economy virtually from the ground up while at the same time meeting national debt obligations that exceed our ability to ever repay them without drastic changes in the way we do business.
How do you jump start a production based economy? You produce. There is no way under any scenario to sustain the US economy without rebuilding our industrial base. There is no way to protect the small industrial base we have left, let alone rebuild it without employing immediate protected trade policies and providing a business climate that brings our industries home where they belong.
You can not tax our corporations and expect to bring them home because that is one of the primary reasons they left to begin with. You have to completely de-tax our corporations to bring them home and keep them here. You also can not bring our corporation home without being able to show them that Americans have buying power which means we need the FairTax immediately to increase that buying power, by increasing net expandable income without raising wages or increasing costs to our companies. The FairTax does this as I've explained above. Once our corporations are tax-free and their customers have more expendable income, they will not only rush home, they will want protected trade policies to protect their own customer base and market share from foreign competition.
If they want to play Globalism over there. God Bless Them. Have at it. We don't care! We're thrilled to think of Walmart providing their services around the globe. They just won't be able to play it here because while we're giving them the best business climate in the world and the best consumer base in world history, we're going to repeal Free Trade and re-impose tariffs and even quota restrictions on certain products as well to keep them here and protect their businesses so we can protect our jobs, investments, technologies and infrastructures. We're also going to shut out the rest of the world from 1 dime of government contracts, not even 1 cent of US taxpayer money will be paid to a non-US company, unless in the rare and most unusual of situations, there is no US bidder, in which case and provided we still want or need whatever product or service it is that's going out for bid, then a special procedure well-publicized and scrutinized will be established for these rare and unusual events.
You're a Constitutionalist, Hylander, and that's great! But for some reason you guys don't understand how the FairTax works and thus reject it erroneously. You need to ask questions so we can break through this problem and become ONE on the key to saving our economy which starts with the FairTax. So, tomorrow after you've had a good rest, lets get through the FairTax so you guys understand its value and why so many of US support it. It's not because we don't understand the Constitution, most of US understand the Constitution all too well, and there is just no conflict at all between the FairTax and our Founding Documents. None whatsoever, so lets work on that tomorrow, okay?
Finally on the welfare state, there is no way to end our welfare state until we fix the economy and have jobs that pay sustainable wages. The welfare state will decline and virtually end in natural course as we stop illegal immigration, pass the FairTax, protect our trade, end the War on Drugs and lift the ban on oil and gas drilling. No one wants to be on welfare. It is not a good or happy life. The people are trapped with the impossible choice of a) no job and starvation b) a job that won't sustain them or c) and continuing a miserable existence on welfare. You can't take 62 million people to the middle of the Sahara Desert with a fishing pole, teach them to fish and expect them to catch any. You have to take them some place where there are some fish, then teach them to fish, and you can not only expect them to catch some fish, they will catch some fish, and your work is finished because they can fend for themselves. It's no different with ending welfare. You can't cut off welfare and tell them to go get a job when you know there aren't any jobs for them which is why they're on welfare to begin with. You have to bring the jobs back and THEN tell them, go get a job and give them the list of where the jobs are, they'll go and be hired, and then your work is finished, and they can fend for themselves.
I, too, have enjoyed this dialogue. Until tomorrow.
Good Night.
Judy
www.fairtax.orgA Nation Without Borders Is Not A Nation - Ronald Reagan
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