Thread: Gates Warns On US Immigration Curbs

From my last post I made a few errors, now that I look at our recruitment manual.


It is not 2 weeks that we cover in temp. housing/car rentals; it is in fact TWO MONTHS.


If the intern chooses to use our realtors, we pay both first month and last month deposits for rent and security deposits as needed.


I didn't mean to say it so bluntly that our education system stinks. I myself, as I imagine many of you, are products of this educational system. However, I can attest that education as far as science and math is starting to take a nosedive. If our schools could just get sufficient funding [I am talking about universities here] that can recruit more students towards these majors, we wouldn't need the influx of H1B visas. Since this is not the case, I am in favor for the increase for our country's own good in the technological scope.

PhredE well stated!! a friend of mine works as a coder for a blue chip company he and his team were not fired but their work was given to some foreigners the company dug up. (they were paid less them 1/2 as my friends team is paid) fortunately for my friend the new people spent 2 months and couldn't solve the problem, so the project was handed back to the older Americans and the had the project completed in 2 weeks. the foreigners were let go and my friend & his team are still employed.

my brother in law was in the IT industry for many many years. the company he was last employed at closed its doors in so doing leaving my brother in law jobless. that was 4 years ago, can't find a job because he is in his 50's.

i really could go on because i know of other people whio would love these jobs and are very qualified!

We look for "Fresh Meat" because it is beneficial to our company to hire kids straight out of college, where they can learn from our more experienced workers and be more productive. As the adage goes "You can't teach an old dog new tricks". We have tried to look for more experienced engineers as well as needed; apparently, they were either a) fired from their previous job for reasons that we cannot in good faith hire them from, or b) not interested in working as much as we make younger, fresh students work. Productivity is the key and it is a given that if you train a young person correctly, they will produce at much more rapid rates as older engineers and are used to the newer technology available to engineers since they themselves were trained to use it in school. I personally believe our strategy is the right one and we aren't looking to change it anytime soon.

The definition of insanity is the repeated the same failed behavior with full knowledge the behavior renders an unsuccessful outcome. Maybe you need to change your strategy.

There are many - too many - assumptions about people that are individuals in your above comments. Your actions border precariously close to age or tenure discrimination'.

As someone that is: 40+, works in the science/technology field, and has a BSc, MSc; hell, since I'm here... care to see some programming code to do stuff like: Clustering? Derive Eigenvectors/Values? Maximum-Likelihood Estimation? Digital Filtering? Extract a Principal Component or two? Classical (Parametric) vs Non-Parametric methods?, etc. Not to mention all that underlying matrix/vector crunching that is required.... etc.

...offense has been taken. This conversation is now concluded.

If our schools could just get sufficient funding [I am talking about universities here] that can recruit more students towards these majors, we wouldn't need the influx of H1B visas. Since this is not the case, I am in favor for the increase for our country's own good in the technological scope

The focus or purpose of US universities is not solely to produce Engineering/Science/Math graduates - they do much, much more than that.
Your world may evolve around Engineering, but for most people, that isn't the case.

You never did answer the question:

Q. If the need for tech workers so great, and the supply so short - why has the average salary DROPPED in the last 5 years then? Such a scenario would seem to buck the most fundamental of economic principles or 'laws'.

I have gone from job fair to job fair. Yes, we have gotten many wonderful recruits; however, the others are, for lack of a better word, incompetent in comparison to the few H1B workers we have and even in comparison to their American peers. The problem is, the education here stinks. My firm has been to over 350 college job fairs. Our starting salary for an engineering intern is $38,000

Hell, if I had an engineering degree I wouldn't work for 38k either!
No wonder you're having trouble finding people. Raise the entry level salary and your problem will magically 'go away'.

If our education is so bad, what are all these people from outside the country doing here? It must be of some value to someone?

Step back, and think about this in much larger terms - do you think there might be the smallest possibility that your employer wants slaves?

PhredE:


The starting salary is like so because when one graduates with an engineering degree, they are not officially "engineers". You need AT LEAST 4-5 years as an engineering intern and then you must pass a state test to become a practicing engineer [similar to the bar exam lawyers must undertake].


Once our interns are certified engineers, their salaries skyrocket from the usual $42,000 they usually acquire through raises if they are good and productive to $70,000-85,000 virtually overnight. Depending on their specialization [i.e. civil, mechanical, electrical, aerospace, etc.] their salaries jump to certain levels.


I didn't mean to cause offense, I am simply stating the truth that my firm holds. There is no other way to go about obtaining college-educated individuals. Do you want us to go to technical colleges and expect to find engineers? No, that's preposterous. We provide many benefits in addition to the salary. We go to department heads and they tell us that from the starting 700 engineering students they had in their freshman year, there are only 75 left. TELL ME WHERE TO FIND THEM.


I am only talking about engineering PhredE because that's what Gates was talking about. Gates was talking about more H1B for engineering and math graduates. That's why I am reiterating. If America isn't going to give more funding for math and science-related majors, don't expect us to be the world leader in technology anymore.


Debate what is being debated about Phred, don't turn this into a dumping contest. We are debating the need for more H1B visas for technologically based jobs. So, essentially, yes this debate is going to have to be centered around engineering, at least from Gates' testimony. I will not hire a history major to help design a building.


And Phred, before you start criticizing our salary rates, do some research on how much INTERNS are paid as opposed to REAL ENGINEERS. You'll learn quite a bit.

iamtired23,

Don't despair of us, we value your opinion and any comments you have to offer.

I know in the medical field they have disallowed almost 1/2 of every Fellowship program since the early Clinton years, now they are filling the spots with foreign doctors.

These are very complex issues and we are a fiery lot!

Thanks Oliver. I am just having trouble with some people just not listening to the reasons that I am throwing out there. I think that all of us can agree that illegals are draining our society, not legal immigrants. But when my comments are dumbed down and trampled on, well I get pretty fiery myself.

I love your name, "iamtired". We're all very tired and trying to plug all the holes in the dam, so forgive us for not always looking at all sides of an issue, and support us because we are all after the same result in the end. It really is about illegals and sometimes everything gets muddled. But you are heard and understood by many, so hang in there, I think you'll provide all of us with some valuable support.

iamtired:

You make good points - let me isolate a couple things that probably need some clarification:

1). You seem to be focusing strongly on 'Engineering' me 'Software Development' more - lots of overlap, not identical by any means.

2). Re: Certified Engineer vs. Intern - yes, you point is well taken and justified. Having said that, there's no reason why said company cannot offer a higher salary - even to the interns - to help solve the problem.

But, I wasn't asking the following question purely rhetorically - this requires a satisfactory explanation:

Q. If the need for tech workers so great, and the supply so short - why has the average salary DROPPED in the last 5 years then? Such a scenario would seem to buck the most fundamental of economic principles or 'laws'.

When I hear one, I will continue the conversation.