Thread: Imperfect System, but Morally Right to Allow Illegals In?

Take it away, gang!! This guy needs some schooling!

http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle....epublisher.com

While the system's not perfect, it's morally right to allow illegal immigration
By: Jeff Fullmer
Issue date: 5/15/06 Section: Opinion
The recent immigration protests have forced me to contemplate the morality of our nation's laws regarding illegal immigrants. According to the census bureau there are an estimated seven million illegal immigrants in America, so this issue clearly affects a lot of people.

First of all I want to point out that none of us chose to be born into America. Yes, I know our country's great and I'm glad to have been born here, but nobody gets to pick where they are born.

We did nothing to earn the honor of being born Americans and we didn't earn the privileges we enjoy here. It is completely arbitrary where we are born-we could have just as easily been born in Mexico without sufficient means to become a legal US citizen. Then how would we feel about closed borders? Consequently, I feel that anyone born in a foreign country has just as much right to be here as we do.

But we're not just talking about immigration, we're talking about illegal immigration. Just as much as foreigners have a right to immigrate to America, so do we have the duty to protect and preserve the welfare of our nation and our way of life.

Some would say that the United States is a life raft that can only hold a limited amount of people. Well, let us say that there are twelve people adrift in the middle of the Atlantic and they can only survive by hopping onto a life raft.

Tragically, this life raft can only hold six people, and it has already reached its capacity. The people drowning to death certainly have a right to life, but at the same time the people already on the raft also have a right to life. What is the moral thing to do? To allow more people onto the raft one-by-one until it sinks?

Probably not, right?

Still, I don't think that's quite the way it works. I don't think that illegal immigrants have such a profoundly negative impact on the economy. They perform jobs that many others would not do.

A lot of laborers complain that "they steal our jobs!" I'd like to see the evidence for that claim. Has anyone actually seen an illegal immigrant "steal" a job they wanted? I haven't.

Moreover, it's actually impossible to "steal" a job. No one is naturally entitled to employment, they are only entitled to work insofar as an employer thinks they will be an asset. If an employer thinks that an illegal immigrant will do a better job than someone else, then it is the latter person's fault for not making himself indispensable.

Finally, it would cost ridiculous amounts of money to find and expel all of the illegal immigrants already in America. It would cost so much money that it makes the very notion of doing so laughable.

It would also cost far too much money to police every inch of the border 24 hours per day with enough manpower to actually catch all potential illegal immigrants.

This is ultimately the reason why I don't think we will ever-or should ever-try to put a complete halt to illegal immigration. We should use our tax dollars to improve the quality of life of everyone in this country before we try to use it to kick people out.

I wonder what tune he would be singing if he neighborhood became over run with illegals

The fact that we, as citizens were born in this country, has little to do with our good fortune. Our good fortune is derived from the foundation our ancestors established and we continue to build upon today. America is not great because of it's location, but because of it's people, traditions, ideals and the American way of life. Mexico for instance, has great natural resources, but still a large portion of it's population is poor and uneducated. If the people's of the world want to live in a society like America, then they should strive to build that kind of country, in their own land. Running away to America, does nothing for their home country or the families they leave behind. If America descends into the kind of nation, these illegal aliens are escaping, where will we go? We, as Americans are responsible for the kind of society we live in and so are the illegal aliens who are leaving their's.

I got to leave the very first comment!

What a piece of work that kid is.

The great luxury liner "The United States" is cruising along at sea. She looks great! She was unsinkable when built. Below decks though there's a problem. The maintenance guys have been stripping her parts little by little for some time to sell for scrap to the Chinese. She's been weakened.

Suddenly the passengers are startled by a loud crunch. The liner has run into a huge piece of junk raft named "Jooray4Me." Both vessels are going under and only the liner has lifeboats.

One six passenger lifeboat under First Mate Tancredo sees what must be done. He fills the lifeboat with 5 of the liner's ticket holders and they row away.

One lifeboat takes on every individual in site. It sinks immediately.

One lifeboat takes on twelve passengers, the theory being the extra rowers will create enough speed to counteract the overload. This one looks good for awhile, but then after the food for six is gone, everyone get's too tired to row and it sinks.

One lifeboat devises a plan whereby six persons will row the boat and others will swim along and take turns in the boat. This works really good for awhile. However, six passengers from the "Jooray4Me" end up as rowers at the same time. They see the pile of wallets in the boat left by the swimmers in the water. With a wink they row off into the distance as the swimmers sink below the waves.

Take it away, gang!! This guy needs some schooling!

GLADLY!

Attention Jeff Fullmer,

First of all I have to ask, can you provide any evidence of United States citizenship?

Next lets take a look at some of your statements.

nobody gets to pick where they are born

That is true, but Parents do have that ability, they also have the ability to choose how many children they have. If a person chooses to have multiple children knowing they have no means of supporting them, do you really feel that you should be held responsible for educating their children, feeding their children breakfast and lunch at school, (by the way 75% of those you are feeding are carrying cell phones!) paying their medical treatments, providing welfare services.

We are currently spending at least $5,000,000,000 per year on the school lunch program. That is $5 Billion each year.

But it does not end there, 50% - 75% of Hispanic immigrants drop out of school or they can not graduate. This is a trait that has been studied and shown to continue generation after generation. The new Exit Exams will now increase those numbers.

Of those who did not graduate, if they are not already in a street gang, they are very good candidates. Since they did not graduate they can only work for minimum wages, if they can find work at all.

So what do they do? - Have you ever heard about "car-jacking" or "home invasion robberies" or "drive by shootings" or "drug dealers"? - These are some of the options these people now have, the people you "saved" or did you create them?
-either way, a lot of them will end up in prison.

Now you get the privilege of supporting them indirectly through higher taxes, higher insurance rates and higher prices, maybe you or one of your family will even be robbed by this person who you pity.

As far as the under achieving "good guys", assuming they work their whole lives, they will only cost you an estimated $60,000 to $100,000 each to support.

As far as the ones that will not cost you, the number is to small to mention.

we didn't earn the privileges we enjoy here

I would appreciate it if you would not speak for me, I have earned the privilege, I am proud of having the privilege , and I will fight to keep the privilege. I do not see or here any of the people you pity expressing that sentiment. In fact most of them speak out against Americans.

I do agree that you have not earned the privilege, nevertheless assuming that you are a citizen, you are Guarenteed that Privilage by the constitution of the United States.

anyone born in a foreign country has just as much right to be here as we do.

Once again, our constitutoin states that they do not.
Who told you that?
Have you ever tried to immigrate to any other country in the world?
Do you know which ones would even consider accepting you?
Are you aware that most countries that are desirable to live in have minimum eligibility requirements? (proof of financial support, evidence of secured employment, Age, etc.)

Try this; Take some vacation time and attempt to immigrate to Mexico and become a Mexican citizen.

Before trying this, you should first learn Spanish. They do not speak English down there. Even though we are expected to speak Spanish for them while they are here.

we have the duty to protect and preserve the welfare of our nation and our way of life.

Exactly! - That does not mean that we are obligated to do the same for every person on the planet, you can not save everyone. Many do not even want or feel they need to be saved, are you willing to save these people to?

What is the moral thing to do?

Maybe I missed the part about why I had the planning and forethought of providing myself with a raft, while the others ignored my advise and instead spent their time and energy reproducing and or stealing the tools that I was using to build my raft. Hell no I will not give up my boat!
And if Jeff or anyone else aboard posed a threat to that raft attempting to sacrafice all of us, I would be willing to reduce the number aboard.

When you are driving down the road and you see a hitch-hiker do you give him your car?
or a ride?

profoundly negative impact on the economy

Do you have any evidence to back that up?
I have evidence from several sources that show otherwise, one of many can be seen here: http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/toc.html

"They perform jobs that many others would not do"
(for some reason quote will not work)

At the same location provided above, you will find the truth is far different.

The often-made assertion that immigrants only take jobs Americans do not want is partly correct, the truth is that they take jobs that Americans are unwilling to continue performing for lower wages.

Several studies have shown that immigrants compete with Americans for the same jobs.

Only 18 percent of illegal Mexican immigrants are employed as agricultural laborers. (the jobs that "nobody wants")

Only about 10 percent of legal Mexican immigrants are employed as agricultural laborers.

more than 80 percent of illegal Mexican immigrants work outside of the agriculture sector. (in jobs that Americans used to do!)

migrant workers are steadily displacing American workers across the country.

Despite their lack of education and qualifications, a significant percentage of legal Mexican immigrants work in managerial and professional or technical sales and administrative support occupations.

Between March of 2000 and 2004, the number of unemployed adult Americans increased by 2.3 million, while the number of employed adult immigrants increased by 2.3 million

Half of the 2.3 million increases in immigrant employment since 2000 are estimated to be from illegal immigration.


Demand for unskilled labor is clearly declining. The number of jobs available for unskilled labor has declined by 400,000 per year.

Of the 900,000 net increase in jobs between March 2003 and 2004, two-thirds went to immigrant workers, even though they account for only 15 percent of all adult workers.


The four occupations with the largest number of newly arrived immigrants (construction, food preparation, cleaning and maintenance, and production workers) there are 21.4 million Americans employed.

Wages paid for unskilled labor have declined, not raised as should be the case if there were a shortage of unskilled labor.

The decline in American employment is most pronounced in states where immigrants increased their share of workers the most.

The argument that “immigrants only take jobs Americans don’t want” would seem to be incorrect. Immigrants are not simply taking jobs that require little education, pay relatively little, and are menial in nature.

Has anyone actually seen an illegal immigrant "steal" a job I haven't.

It is called a "figure of speech" Jeff, we use those a lot here in America, get used to it.
They do not commit armed robbery, they only need to be willing to work for lower wages and benefits. Having large numbers of such people at hand, existing employees are often given the option of keeping their job for lower pay, or they are just fired and replaced.

And Jeff, I am sure that I am not alone in hoping that you will soon experience this yourself.

How would you respond to your employer if they informed you that to keep your job you will need to take a $30,000 pay cut? - do you take it?

That is what I was offered from an employer who claimed to offer "competitive wages" and would sometimes use immigrant labor "because of a shortage of skilled workers” (meaning they decided to hire unskilled labor for all or part of the work) they did not rely on the availability of immigrant labor to exploit their employees, there are plenty of unemployed Americans who have been displaced from their own jobs to serve that purpose.

it is the latter person's fault for not making himself indispensable

By that I assume that you mean all American workers should:
1) Be willing to work for minimum wage or less.
2) Be willing to work for no benefits.
3) Be willing to never stand up for their rights, safety, or well being.
4) Be willing to work overtime, weekends and holidays without overtime.
5) Abandon their way of life and their standard of living.
6) Sell or loose their homes and live out of their cars or form a commune with 4 or 5 other families to share the cost of housing.
7) Drive their cars without insurance.
Sign up for multiple public assistance programs.
9) Cancel any plans for ever retiring, because it is not ever going to happen.
- As their competition does.
Those are just some of the things off the top of my head that you are expecting these people to do, are you willing to?

It would cost so much money that it makes the very notion of doing so laughable

How did you reach this very vague figure?
Most of those who are against the current open boarder / mass immigration of several million Mexicans per year are not interested in deporting every person who is here illegally.

Some of us feel that the cost of enforcement should not be a determining factor in applying the law. Have you ever heard it said "we spend to much money arresting criminals, we should let them be"? - I have only heard criminals say this.

Would you change your opinion if it was shown that the huge cost of Deporting illegals would actually cost less than allowing them to remain?

I am not laughing Jeff.

We have done it before and we should do it again.

In addition to removing those who have imposed their burdon upon us, it will also send a message to others that we are not the welfare state of the world.
It will also help restore American wages that have been dropping for several years.

As demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have the ability to transport close to 1 million people in a day to a location half way around the world. With the short trip to Mexico it could be completed within a month. - Based on the fact that it has been done before.

It would also cost far too much money to police every inch of the border 24 hours per day

We are currently spending enough on border patrol to do just that, so why is it not protected?
Do you define "police" as someone who arrests a criminal, drives him a few blocks away from the scene and then releases him and drives away?
-That is what happens at our boarder every night and day.

If the border was not worth that value, they would not be crossing it by the millions.

Have you ever heard of the great wall of China?
It was built over 2,000 years ago across some of the roughest terrain on the planet and is 4,163 miles long.
Our border is only 2,000 miles of flat unobstructed land.
Not to mention that Americans have committed the funds for building a barricade several times, it just has not been done.

We seem to have plenty of cheap labor to build it!

We should use our tax dollars to improve the quality of life of everyone in this country before we try to use it to kick people out

How do you propose to do that when people are coming in so fast that they are pushing aside those who are trying to improve the quality of their lives?

The first thing we must do is control our borders,
Our country has never allowed the large number of people now entering each year.
Our countries population has never grown as rapidly as now.

You may not see a big impact from this at your location, no one is claiming that it is evenly distributed around the country.

- But it is happening.

I can drive through my town and count an almost equal number of American flags as there are Mexican flags on display. Some days the Mexican flags outnumber our own.

- Not a good sign
1) why have these people entered our country illegaly?
2) why do they demand more and more from us?
3) why do they remain loyal to the country they left?
4) Why do they have hostility for the country which is providing services and opportunities to them that their own country has never offered?
5) Why are many of them saying that they are going to turn our country into Mexico?