Thread: Illegal immigration debate: hard workers or criminals?

Heidi Toth - Daily Herald Daily Herald | Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 12:04 am LEHI -- If the immigration debate on Friday night was any indication, the legislative session is going to be loud, a little ugly and will not change anyone's mind.

Four legislators, Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and a number of citizens weighed in on Rep. Stephen Sandstrom's enforcement-only bill and the role of the state in dealing with illegal immigrants during the debate sponsored by the Sutherland Institute at the Thanksgiving Point Barn in front of hundreds of area residents.

Those against Sandstrom's bill focused on the economic demand for illegal immigrant labor. Shurtleff said the solution should not be about citizenship, since most don't want citizenship. They just want to work.

State Sen. Curt Bramble, R-Provo, compared the bill to Prohibition in the 1920s, which was unsuccessful because the economic demand for alcohol remained, as the demand for immigrant labor remains today.

"If you can find a way to channel and regulate that economic demand, now we're going somewhere," he said.

Maybe, Sandstrom, R-Orem, et al agreed. But encouraging people to come illegally, giving privileges of any kind to those who can't prove their citizenship and allowing illegal immigrants to work without any consequences is unfair and sets a bad precedent, they said.

Rep. Chris Herrod, R-Provo, said millions of people want to become citizens, but most will never get the chance because they have no border to sneak across.

"I call them the forgotten immigrants," he said. "No one speaks for them."

The two sides argued about identity theft, fairness and compassion, just and unjust laws, crime rates, which level of government needed to take action, the interpretation of how illegal, illegal immigrants really are and whose facts were the most correct.

The audience weighed in frequently despite moderator Barbara Melendez's remonstrations, by clapping, hollering, catcalling and booing.

Naturalized citizen Arturo Morales argued in favor of Sandstrom's bill, saying while he wasn't opposed to legal workers or a guest worker program, no change would work without enforcement.

"Any kind of program has to start with enforcement," he said.

They focused largely on identity theft and wanted to know why Shurtleff's office did not pursue identity thieves more aggressively.

Shurtleff said his office was using its resources to go after the big criminals, those who are selling false identification or buying houses and taking out loans.

"That's a different kind of crime than using someone's Social Security number to work," he said.

His office is prosecuting one of the 10 people who have stolen 9-year-old Grace Weed's Social Security number. Her mother, Lynette, lamented that her daughter would spend the rest of her life having to prove who she was.

"If you ask Grace, Grace will tell you that a big crime has been committed against her," Morales said.

In his closing remarks, he asked the audience to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance with him, saying, his 11-year-old son had reminded him as he left about the importance of doing so. All did.

"Justice," one man emphasized as he sat down.

"For all," a woman responded.

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/g ... 86fb1.html

Using a false social security number needs to be made a felony.

Originally Posted by disgustedamerican

Using a false social security number needs to be made a felony.

I completely agree. This should be done

"If you or me got caught doing it, it would be a felony!"

But, but, but, didn't the Supreme Court ALREADY rule on this? If I'm not mistaken, they said that using someone else's social security number isn't a crime since that "borrower" really really really didn't know it belonged to someone else? Something about INTENT? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The only Social Security number (SSN) you should ever use is your own. Using a fake number, or a number belonging to another person, is a form of perjury and fraud that is punishable under federal law. The circumstances under which you use a fake SSN can result in enhanced penalties.

Penalty for Perjury
Many documents you sign that include your SSN for identification purposes usually includes a statement that you are signing under the penalty of perjury. A conviction for perjury can carry a five-year prison sentence and a fine of $40,000 under U.S. Code 18 U.S.C. 1621.

I-9 Fraud
Providing a fake SSN to an employer when providing information for an I-9 form can result in a five-year federal prison sentence and a maximum fine of $250,000.

Bank Fraud
If you use a fake SSN to obtain a loan from a federally chartered bank (which many are), you can be convicted of bank fraud under U.S. Code 18 U.S.C. 1334. Prison time for this crime ranges upwards of 30 years, and the fine can be as high as $1 million.

Identify Theft
Using a fake SSN could also be prosecuted as identity theft if the number turns out to belong to another person. This is punishable under federal law as well and carries a maximum sentence of 15 years, under 18 U.S.C. 1028.

State Law Penalties
Even if your use of a fake SSN does not catch the attention of the federal authorities, each state has its own laws against misuse of identifying information, which can result in penalties ranging from a fine to probation and imprisonment.

Source:
18 U.S.C. 1621: Perjury

Florida Attorney General: Federal ID Theft Law

Federal Sentencing Guidelines Calculator



Read more: What is the penalty for using a fake social security number? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1898018#ixzz1BmOE8ndy

topsecret10,

If all you have printed is indeed true, then why aren't illegal aliens prosecuted to the full extent of the law when they use someone else's social security number? Isn't it said that 5+ million illegal aliens are working today? What number(s) are they using and why is it continuing to occur?

Originally Posted by keekee

But, but, but, didn't the Supreme Court ALREADY rule on this? If I'm not mistaken, they said that using someone else's social security number isn't a crime since that "borrower" really really really didn't know it belonged to someone else? Something about INTENT? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Courts: Using another's SSN not a crime /Posted: Tuesday, November 30 2010 at 06:00 am CT by Bob Sullivan
Is using a forged Social Security Number -- but your own name -- to obtain employment or buy a car an identity theft crime? Lately, U.S. courts are saying it's not.

The most recent judicial body to take on the issue, the Colorado Supreme Court, ruled last month that a man who used his real name but someone else's Social Security number to obtain a car loan was not guilty of "criminal impersonation," overturning convictions by lower courts.

That follows a ruling last year by the U.S. Supreme Court that a Mexican man who gave a false SSN to get a job at an Illinois steel plant could not be convicted under federal identity theft laws because he did not knowingly use another person's identifying number. The ruling overturned an opinion by a federal appeals court in St. Louis -- and contradicted earlier findings by circuit courts in the Southeast, upper Midwest and the Gulf states.


It hasn’t been a shutout for identity theft prosecutors, however. In July, an Iowa state appeals court came to the opposite conclusion, affirming a lower court decision that a man who used a California woman's SSN to obtain employment was guilty of breaking that state's identity theft law.

Identity theft can take many forms, but one of the most vexing is so-called "SSN-only" ID theft. In it, an imposter uses a victim's SSN --- sometimes purchased from a broker, sometimes nine digits pulled out of thin air -- to obtain credit or to provide necessary documentation to obtain work. In many cases, SSN "borrowing" is successful and the imposter goes undetected for years.

At the heart of all these cases is a simple question: Does the mere use of an anonymous victim's SSN break identity theft laws?

Mari Frank, a California-based lawyer and identity theft victim advocate, said courts are failing to recognize the real harm caused by imposters, even if imposters are unaware of that harm.

"You can't say there's no victim,â€

Social Security Numbers
Introduced in 1936, Social Security numbers have become increasingly vital. But the nine-digit numbers are surprisingly easy to steal. Now the government is taking steps to change how they're assigned.

http://www.whoknew.news.yahoo.com/

Watch this!

Originally Posted by keekee

topsecret10,

If all you have printed is indeed true, then why aren't illegal aliens prosecuted to the full extent of the law when they use someone else's social security number? Isn't it said that 5+ million illegal aliens are working today? What number(s) are they using and why is it continuing to occur?

It Is another case of our Federal,State,and local governments deciding to look the other way,and let certain criminal behaviors by Illegals go unpunished. There are currently TWO seperate and distinct rules of law to be followed In this country. One Is for United States Citizens (we are held to a higher standard) and one Is for all of the Illegal aliens. They are given "FREE PASSES" In many Instances where a LEGAL citizen would be arrested Until LEGAL citizens begin to stand up for themselves and challenge this open discrimination against them In the courts,this will continue. We need to RECALL the judges that are making these obviously "Agenda Driven" rulings... TS