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  1. #1
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    Poll: Most Christians, Jews at Odds w/Leaders over Illegal I

    Poll: Most Christians and Jews at Odds with Their Leaders over Illegal Immigration

    Thursday, December 31, 2009
    By Christopher Neefus

    ( – American Jews and Christians hold views about illegal immigration that are largely at odds with those of their spiritual leaders, according to a new poll from Zogby International.

    The poll showed that while most religious leaders saw illegal immigration as a problem caused by barriers to legal immigration, most worshippers thought a lack of enforcement of current law was the problem; and while leaders thought employers needed access to more immigrant labor, rank-and-file members thought employers needed to attract more domestic workers.

    Steven A. Camarota, the research director for the nonpartisan Center for Immigration Studies said the results revealed a “huge divide
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Dixie's Avatar
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    Apr 2006
    Texas - Occupied State - The Front Line
    That's because the church is not beholding to "Caesar" like the tax paying parishioners.

    The churches need to quit turning their ability to reach out and help people to the government. That's how the church traditionally converted people was first by deeds. Now people look to government to save them.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member American-ized's Avatar
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    Agree, Dixie.... by the way, LOVE your AVATAR!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dixie's Avatar
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    Texas - Occupied State - The Front Line
    Quote Originally Posted by American-ized
    Agree, Dixie.... by the way, LOVE your AVATAR!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

    Oh, and I know preachers that do not agree with illegal immigration. They recognize that it's WRONG!

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  5. #5
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    POLL: Church MEMBERS Care About Low-Paid Workers & Jobless (but church LEADERS back businesses that seek cheap foreign labor)

    By Roy Beck, Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 1:35 PM EST - posted on NumbersUSA

    Perhaps the most striking results of a massive new Zogby poll show that while their religious leaders mouth the arguments of the Chamber of Commerce for more cheap foreign labor, the vast majority of church and synagogue members show a strong preference for low-wage and jobless Americans.

    Most of the largest Christian and Jewish organizations are set next week to begin lobbying Congress vigorously to increase the flow of foreign workers -- especially unskilled ones -- into the U.S.

    But Zogby found almost no support among the people in the pews for importing more workers.

    Only 12% of Catholics agree with their bishops that the U.S. needs more foreign workers.

    Only 10% of mainline Protestants agree with the largest denominations that there aren't enough Americans to fill U.S. jobs.

    Only 7% of born-again Protestants agree with the National Association of Evangelicals that the U.S. doesn't import enough foreign workers.

    Only 16% of Jews agree with Jewish group lobbyists that the U.S. needs to give out more foreign work permits.

    What Zogby did in its poll of more than 40,000 Americans is ask which opinion best reflected their view about jobs that require relatively little education.

    The vast majority of Christians and Jews chose the second opinion: "There are plenty of Americans already here to do these jobs; if employers can't find workers they should pay more and treat workers better."

    The tiny percentages listed in the bullet points above chose the first opinion: "We need to allow more immigrants into the country to fill these jobs because there aren't enough Americans willing or able to do them."

    This opinion (roundly rejected by Christians and Jews but most strongly argued by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce) is the one chosen by most of the national religious leaders. This is strange since most of these leaders usually are known for leaning liberal and in favor of workers.

    How refreshing, though, to find out that the tens of millions of Americans who attend the services of those religions and provide the offerings to pay the salaries of those pro-labor-importation religious leaders have not lost their moral bearings. The members do not seem to be influenced in any way by the teachings of their national religious leaders that we have a labor shortage in this country.

    Only somebody blinded by ideology could during the current Jobs Depression claim that we have a labor shortage.

    Yet, that is a fundamental belief behind all of the religious leaders' lobbying for "comprehensive immigration reform."

    Most Christians and Jews see a 10% U-3 unemployment rate and feel deep compassion for the 15 million Americans who are actively looking for a job but can't find even a part-time job.

    I have no doubt that the national religious leaders are also concerned about these Americans -- but not so concerned to be willing to give up their near-idolatrous ideological commitment to high immigration.

    You will be amazed to read national religious leader arguments for labor importation summarized in the report on the Zogby poll by the Center for Immigration Studies.


    While fewer than 16% of Christians and Jews think it makes any practical or moral sense to be importing foreign workers during a time of high unemployment, most national religious leaders prefer to claim that foreign workers have no impact on unemployment.

    Even though most of the national religious leaders usually are quick to criticize businesses for the excesses of capitalism, they seem perfectly comfortable in parroting the most greedy of businesses when it comes to defending high immigration. It doesn't seem to matter that the most unscrupulous businesses use immigration to hold down the wages of all workers and to avoid hiring under-represented U.S. born groups such as the disabled, Black, indigenous Indian and Hispanic).

    Immigrants are filling the jobs that go unwanted and unfilled by U.S. citizens. . . . employers who are trying to 'do it the right way' are not able to bring people into the country on employment visas because the system is so backlogged."
    -- Episcopal Church

    U.S. policy does not reflect labor demands in determining caps on work visas . . . demand for worker visas far exceeds availability.
    -- Presbyterian Church USA

    The Union for Reform Judaism calls specifically for increases in unskilled laborers, as if our less-educated and less-skilled Americans don't already have an unemployment rate two and three times higher than the rest of the nation.

    The United Church of Christ urged its members to demand of candidates for Congress that they deal with U.S. business dependency on a foreign labor supply:

    How do you propose to enable these critical businesses to obtain a sufficient and dependable work force?
    -- United Church of Christ question of candidates regarding increasing immigration

    . . . immigrants provide a much-needed labor force in the United States . . . (The government should) increase the number of visas for short-term workers to come into the United States to work.
    -- United Methodist Church

    The U.S. economy depends upon the labor provided by migrants . . . (The law should be changed so more) laborers from other countries can enter the country legally to fill positions in the labor force, including on a temporary basis (and temporary workers should be provided a) path to permanent residency.
    -- U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops

    In the eyes of the highest elites of religious leaders in the country, unemployed Americans are too lazy, too dumb or too ill-equipped to take entry-level service, construction, manufacturing and transportation jobs. In the leaders' eyes, illegal foreign workers are much superior or it wouldn't be right to ask unemployed Americans to do the lower-skilled jobs, or to raise the wages of those jobs to a level that would attract Americans.

    (Illegal foreign workers are) indispensable (and do jobs that) United States citizens often will not do. . . . Legal pathways for entry to work in the United States ought to correspond to the annual need for foeign workers."
    -- Lutheran Church (ELCA)

    . . . Employers report that they advertise for weeks and offer jobs to U.S. citizens prior to turning to undocumented workers. . . . Workers who are U.S. citizens often quit after only a few days of work.
    -- Episcopal Church

    Due to the limited number of visas, millions have entered the United States without proper documentation or have overstayed temporary visas. . . . (Many industries) rely on immigrant workers. . . . Current quotas do not grant enough visas to meet these needs, nor does federal immigration law provide sufficient opportunities to others who also come seeking gainful employment.
    -- National Association of Evangelicals (led by the Assemblies of God, Christian Reformed Church and Church of the Nazarene)


    The attitudes about illegal immigration of all the national religious leaders who are lobbying for "comprehensive immigration reform" is reflected in this statement:

    . . . because the immigration system does not adequately reflect our current or future labor needs, thousands of laborers are compelled to enter the country illegally.
    -- American Jewish Committee

    So, Zogby asked more than 40,000 Americans why we have an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S.

    He gave people two choices:

    (a) Past efforts to enforce immigration laws have been grossly inadequate and the government has never made a real effort to enforce the law

    (b) We have made a real effort to enforce our immigration laws, but we have failed because we are not allowing in enough immigrants legally.

    The (b) position is overwhelmingly endorsed by the national religious leadership, but hardly any of their members agreed.

    11% of Catholics said illegal immigration is caused by not letting in enough legal foreign workers (78% said the problem is inadequate enforcement)

    18% of mainline Protestants said not enough legal foreign workers (78% said inadequate enforcement)

    9% of born-again Protestants said not enough legal foreign workers (85% said inadequate enforcement)

    21% of Jews said not enough legal foreign workers (60% said inadequate enforcement)

    Once again, the nation's low-paid workers and unemployed can be joyful that the nation's Christians and Jews in the pews -- and not their national leaders -- are the overwhelming power in the voting booth.

    Candidates for Congress in 2010 would do well to screen out anything they hear about immigration from major religious leaders. Their siding with the greediest part of the corporate lobbies not only raises questions about their moral authority but clearly puts them at odds with all but a tiny percentage of their own members. ... tid=243939

    ROY BECK is Founder & CEO of NumbersUSA

    Views and opinions expressed in blogs on this website are those of the author. They do not necessarily reflect official policies of NumbersUSA.
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  6. #6
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    Zogby Poll Finds Few in Pew Agree With Their Pro-Amnesty Religious Leaders (almost nobody agrees immigration too low)

    By Roy Beck, Updated Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 6:30 AM EST - posted on NumbersUSA

    One of the largest polls on immigration ever conducted has proven what we suspected all along:

    National religious leaders who are lobbying Congress for ever-more immigration simply don't represent much of anybody.

    This poll shows that a good way for a Member of Congress to lose considerable votes back home would be to listen to national religious leaders on immigration. While those religious leaders demand more immigration, the Zogby poll found that most Christian and Jewish voters want LESS immigration.


    The Center for Immigration Studies has done an excellent job of summarizing the official immigration positions and activism of most of the nation's largest religious groups and contrasted them to what Zogby found by asking the people in the pews.

    The Catholic bishops, for example, have constantly been in the news all year, calling for more green cards. They have announced plans to mobilize their own members throughout the month of January in a pro-amnesty post-card campaign.

    But Zogby found that only 4% of Catholics agree with their bishops that current immigration is too low.

    It appears that 100% of lobbying by national Jewish organizations is for more green cards.

    But Zogby found that only 5% of Jews agree that immigration is too low.

    A large consortium of mainline Protestant national leaders is in the midst of a post-card campaign in their churches right now, planning to make in-person deliveries of the post-cards to the local congressional offices in January. Participating are the national leaders of the United Methodist, Lutheran (ELCA), Presbyterian USA, Episcopal, Disciples, United Church of Christ denominations.

    But Zogby found that only 2% of mainline Protestants agree with their bishops and national agency leaders that immigration is too low.

    Leaders of the National Association of Evangelicals excitedly stepped into the spotlight in October, proclaiming their support for higher immigration and more authorized foreign workers. National media showered them with affectionate attention for being broad-minded enough to buck the "mean-spirited" citizens who oppose high immigration.

    But only 13 of the 42 denominations in the NAE actually were willing to sign on to the higher-immigration policies. And Zogby discovered that the rest of the (mostly small) denominations' leaders were uncharacteristically representative of their members. Of voters identifying themselves as "born-again" Protestants, only 3% agreed with the National Association of Evangelicals that immigration is too low. But the leaders of major evangelical/pentecostal denominations such as the Assemblies of God, the Church of the Nazarene and the Christian Reformed Church aggressively defend the calls for more immigration.


    The only reason that I can figure that all of these religious groups are not in open rebellion is that most members don't realize that their national leaders are taking immigration positions that are so radically opposite the views of the membership.

    When you see this kind of disparity, you can't help but wonder about some things.

    Are the national religious leaders named above so incurious about their members that they don't realize this huge divide?

    Do they really believe that most of their members are immoral on this issue? The national leaders' positions are so boldly confident and without nuance that they suggest pretty firmly that those of us who disagree are violating core principles of our faith. If these leaders really believe that, they must be extremely depressed to find that less than 5% of the members pass the morality test on immigration.

    However, I know that the really great pastors are humble enough to know that what is preached through the lives, experience and reason of the pews is important to inform what is preached from the pulpit. Few pastors would get so out of touch with their congregations.

    But the national leaders live in much more of a vacuum. They spend more time with national leaders of other denominations than they do with the U.S. citizens in the pews of the congregations.

    The Zogby poll should be a wake-up call for these bishops and agency lobbyists. They came up with their high-immigration positions while locking out the views from the pews. Maybe they ought to start over by listening to what their laity have to say about all of this.


    While religious adherents see no point in increasing the flow of new immigrants, they are a little more conflicted about the illegal aliens already living here.

    Christians and Jews were given a choice between (a) legalizing the illegal immigrants (while making them pay fines and study English) and (b) enforcing laws to cause them to go back home over time.

    Many people couldn't choose. But preferring attrition through enforcement (driving illegal aliens back home) over legalization (amnesty) were:

    Catholics (64% to 23%)

    Mainline Protestants (64% to 24%)

    Born-Again Protestants (76% to 12%)

    Jews, however, were split, with 43% supporting driving illegal aliens back home and 40% supporting legalization.

    But with all Jewish lobbying in Washington being in favor of amnesty, Zogby has shown that a huge segment of Jews is NOT represented on the amnesty issue.


    If anything, the Zogby poll was worded in favor of the religious leaders' positions.

    The term "illegal aliens" was never used. Nor was the word "amnesty." I feel certain that the results would have been even more lop-sided if those terms had been used.

    The "legalization" option was described as including fines for the immigrants in the country illegally. In fact, the amnesty bill in Congress includes a fine of only $500, surely far less than most people would expect when hearing that illegal aliens would have to "earn" or "pay for" their right to permanent residency and jobs.

    The poll did not give people the option of mass deportation because not a single one of the 535 Members of Congress currently is proposing that option. So, the choice given in the poll as regards amnesty was between the two options actually on the table.


    Not every large religious organization is totally out of step with its members on the immigration issue (although most are).

    The Southern Baptist Convention -- the nation's 2nd largest denomination and the largest Protestant and evangelical body -- has thus far stayed out of the amnesty fight.

    So apparently have all the other two or three dozen Baptist denominations.

    And the Mormon Church.

    Also abstaining thus far are the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and the Christian (eastern) Orthodox denominations.

    Most of the dozens of denominations with fewer than 500,000 members have resisted calling for amnesty and more immigration.

    But the leaders of most of the biggest denominations -- representing a big majority of all American Christians -- are lobbying for more and more foreign workers and faster and faster U.S. population growth. It is this group of leaders about which the Zogby poll raises big questions.

    One question that Members of Congress can answer immediately, though. That is, should they pay any attention to the pro-amnesty lobbying of these religious leaders? Answer: Not if they want Catholics, mainline Protestants, born-again Protestants and Jews to be happy voting for them in the 2010 elections. ... tid=243939

    ROY BECK is Founder & CEO of NumbersUSA

    Views and opinions expressed in blogs on this website are those of the author. They do not necessarily reflect official policies of NumbersUSA.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member bigtex's Avatar
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    May 2006
    Houston, Texas
    It's little wonder memberships in America's churches are getting smaller and smaller. The church is not in touch with their members.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Hylander_1314's Avatar
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    Mar 2007
    Grant Township Mi
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie
    Now people look to government to save them.

    And that is very dangerous. For it breeds a nation of sheep.

  9. #9
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    Apr 2006
    Survey shows 'pew-versus-pulpit divide'

    Allie Martin and Chad Groening - OneNewsNow - 12/31/2009 5:00:00 A.M.

    A new poll shows disparity between religious leaders and those in the pews on the issue of illegal immigration.

    According to the poll conducted by Zogby International -- a research group that has been tracking public opinion since 1984 in North America, Latin America, the Middle East, Asia and Europe -- many church members strongly disagree with their leaders' contention that more immigrant workers need to be allowed back into the United States.

    The survey also showed that most parishioners advocated for more enforcement to cause illegal workers to return home while the majority of religious leaders were calling for illegal immigrants to be put on the path to U.S. citizenship.

    Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion & Democracy, feels that many religious leaders are focused on advancing an agenda. "It seems that the evangelical elites, like the mainline Protestant elites, are growing almost calloused and very comfortable with disregarding the views of their own church members in their pursuit of their own fairly liberal political agenda," he notes.

    The survey of Catholic, mainline Protestant, born-again Protestants, and Jewish voters was one of the largest polls on immigration ever conducted. Dr. Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), says it shows that there is a huge divide between rank-and-file Jews and Christians and many of their leaders on the issue. (listen to audio report)

    "The major religious denominations, and even the National Association of Evangelicals, have all essentially endorsed the position that the illegal aliens in the United States need to all be legalized," Camarota reports. "And yet what we found in the poll was that it is diametrically opposed to what most of their actual members want. There's a real pew-versus-pulpit divide here."

    The researcher notes that the largest non-Catholic denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, did not support amnesty for illegal aliens. ... ?id=833526

    Links within the original article may be accessed by clicking on the source link above.
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  10. #10
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    Poll: Churchgoers Disagree on Immigration

    Poll: Churchgoers Disagree on Immigration

    Saturday, January 2, 2010

    WASHINGTON-- A vast majority of U.S. churchgoers across all major denominations disagree with their leaders' pro-immigration stances, a survey indicates.

    Despite calls from the leaders of mainline and evangelical Protestant, Catholic and Jewish religions for illegal immigrants to be allowed a path to legalized residency, rank-and-file church members across the religious spectrum reject their positions and instead favor tougher enforcement aimed at making the immigrants go home, a Zogby Poll released Wednesday indicated.

    Moreover, the pollsters found that members strongly disagree with their leaders' contention that more immigrant workers need to be allowed into the country and insist there are plenty of Amercians available for low-paying manual labor jobs and seasonal farm work.

    Zogby found that just 11 percent of Catholics, 18 percent of mainline Protestants, 9 percent of evangelical Protestants and 21 percent of Jews agreed that illegal immigration was caused by not letting in enough legal immigrants -- a contention that is the official position of all the major churches.

    The online survey, commissioned for the Center for Immigration Studies, polled 42,026 likely voters from Nov. 13-30 and carried a margin of error of 0.5 percentage points. ... ctID=19373
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