Thread: Rudy Giuliani Vs. Ron Paul and Reality

TTback before I became more "enlightened" about the realities of what's taking place today, I would have been the first one to come down on Ron Paul.

I would have been one of the masses who was conditioned by the mainstream media to think that America can do no wrong. That we are always perfect and good and to think otherwise is either unpatriotic or you're one of the "blame America crowd".

The reality? Yes of course there is in fact a hate America crowd who blames our country for every little wrong in the world, and completely ignores all the good we've done.

With that being said, you have to look at the other side of the coin as well.
America - as much as I love her with all my heart - isn't perfect and isn't immune to corrupt or inept leaders. "We" have been conditioned to believe that ALL our intentions are always pure and good. Well, if you're talking about the majority of the average American citizen, I sincerely have faith about that being true. Despite all our flaws, we're pretty darn good people! But I don't always believe that to be true of our government leaders.

And I find it very strange that much of the discussions in this forum is usually about exposing our leaders for not enforcing immigration laws, for secretly planning a North American Union, etc., etc. Yet, when Ron Paul comes out and says that our foreign policy may have contributed to why we were attacked on 9-11, some conservatives have a hissy fit! Can someone please explain this to me? You already know what our leaders are capable of! What gives?

Does anyone here truly believe that our foreign policy is leading us in the right direction? And it's ridiculous to believe that we have to go fight them there, so they don't come over here. Uh, if we're so concerned about that, why are our borders still open?? Afghanistan - I understood us going in. Iraq - give me a break! This whole idea of nation building is all part of the Neo-cons agenda! Ron Paul has openly discussed how they have infiltrated our government and how this will eventually lead to our downfall. Please wake up people!

Look, I fell for all this at one time as well. All I'm suggesting to those who are complaining about what Ron Paul said is to think about this rationally rather than emotionally. Who likes being told that we could have been responsible for such an horrific attack? But if we, as a nation, continue to put our heads in the sand, pretending that there are no consequences to our actions, then we will continue to have wars for many years to come and more people will die. No one can end this unless as a people, we come together - not as Liberals and Conservatives - but as Americans, and bring these people down. Educate others and expose their agenda.

As far as I'm concerned, Ron Paul had the courage to do this. Some times you need a little tough love to wake people up to do the right thing.

I don't know if your post is directed at me, chloe24, but I gave an honest assessment on how I viewed his comment and how I think it came off with the viewing audience he was speaking too last night.

chloe24 wrote:

I would have been one of the masses who was conditioned by the mainstream media to think that America can do no wrong.

Exactly who are you accusing of being brainwashed by mainstream media? A difference of opinion doesn't necessarily mean someone has been "conditioned by the mainstream media."

2ndamendsis, I don't think Mr Paul was blaming American's at all I thought it was more along the lines of being responsible for our own actions.

I really thought that when 9/11 happened that the illegal immigration problem would be solved. I never understood why President Bush decided to go and rearrange the rubble in Afghanistan instead of securing our borders. Wouldn't Americans feel a lot safer if we actually knew who and what was in our country? When did the United States become the worlds police force? Why do we continue to meddle in affairs that are really none of our business?

Boy, how soon we forget!!!

We SHOULD have secured our border after 9/11. However, we wanted Bin Laden's head on a platter. All attention was geared towards how we were going to get him, not geared toward how the terrorists were in the country illegally. Unfortunately, we haven't gotten him yet, but his day will come.

Do we tend to meddle in other's business a bit too much? Yes! Should we act as the world's police? No. Did these losers attack us on 9/11 because we have meddled in their affairs? Sure, but what are their affairs? Suicide bombings? Assassinations? Beheadings? They also attacked us because they hate our religion and freedoms. They attacked us because they hate how we flaunt everything and how we live our lives. They attacked us because they wanted to embarass us. They attacked us because we would not take their threats seriously. They attacked us because we did not finish the job in the first Gulf War, because we did nothing in response to the first Twin Towers attack, nor after the attacks in Somalia or the USS Cole.

These terrorists are pure evil and represent NO country. Don't feed me the line that they care about the bombings of Iraq when they renounce their allegiance to their homelands for the sake of al Qaeda, Hezbollah, or any of these other viper dens.

The terrorists hate us and will continue to fight us. Cowardess and inaction only embolden them. Ron Paul put his foot DEEP into his mouth last night. His campaign as Republican candidate for president is effectively over. He could join up with Chuck Hagel as an indy candidate, as he could have a cult following. Regardless, he will not be the next Commander-in-Chief.

Originally Posted by PinestrawGuys

The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel.

To think that our presence there had no bearing on the motivations for terrorist actions is a bit short-sighted, IMHO. I don't 'Blame America First', and neither did Dr. Paul, but to ignore the reality of the 9/11 Commission's findings is folly.

Ronald Reagan was right. We should have STAYED OUT after the fiasco in Lebanon. That we didn't was a mistake that we should own up to, and never repeat.

*Edited to add that after Reagan it was Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush that were responsible. No one is giving Bill Clinton a pass.

The TERRORISTS or better known as INSANE MUSLIM FANATICS have been at it for 1500 years. However, concerning our problem?
They've been at it since WWII

Reagan should have knocked the crap out of them IN LEBANON. That little maneuver has caused many American lives that none of YOU are even aware of and never will be.

This is NOT a new situation. Take it to the bank.

If you really want to throw BLAME AROUND, blame FDR for putting the Sauds in power SECRETLY in the first place.

Nothing America did or didn't do has a thing to do with these insane maniacs and their belief that Infidels must die. The califate is a centuries old tale.

How about Rwanda? Darfur? Our fault?
They KILL THEIR OWN.

Originally Posted by kniggit

2ndamendsis, I don't think Mr Paul was blaming American's at all I thought it was more along the lines of being responsible for our own actions.

I really thought that when 9/11 happened that the illegal immigration problem would be solved. I never understood why President Bush decided to go and rearrange the rubble in Afghanistan instead of securing our borders. Wouldn't Americans feel a lot safer if we actually knew who and what was in our country? When did the United States become the worlds police force? Why do we continue to meddle in affairs that are really none of our business?

I see this very differently, Kniggit.

We should have done BOTH!

The border disaster is and has been a PLAN for many decades. The lack of securing our nation was not done for a purpose!

Bush and cabal with CONGRESS!! can and will rot.
CONGRESS is the entity that holds the KEYS to all.
Bush and cabal couldn't have wiped their noses without Congress's approval.

That's where the rubber meets the road. What does it take for people to understand the CONSTITUTION and the powers of Congress?

That pissant would be hamstrung if not for CONGRESS and their own greed and hunger for POWER. THEY and they alone, have begun to shred our Constitution by virtue of ALLOWING every administration to further this plan for world domination/Globalism.

As far as Paul goes........I never supported him simply because he was too libertarian than I feel is Constitutional. However, I very much liked him and appreciated much of what he believes. Unfortunately, he as well as many others have shown their complete lack of historical knowledge in this very serious and deadly war that our children will be fighting long after we are gone.

And, NO, Kniggit...........I don't believe that we should be anyone's policeman. We've more than overstepped our bounds for our nation's well being. ESPECIALLY since much of our meddling has been only for the good of the Global cabal and not for America.

That is very different than fighting muslim fanatics. We've been doing this for decades but none of you were even aware of that fact!

BTW, Bush and gang aren't fighting this war to win. There's the rub!!

What Ron Paul said at the debate is in the CIA report and 9/11 commission report as to what led up to 9/11. As I saw him last night on CNN, it was not the American people that caused 9/ll; it is a failed foreign policy. Our country has been attacking Iraq for years and killing thousands and thousands of their people; via military effort and/or sanctions.

I'm proud of him for being straight forward and firm. He's one that will not leave our borders open for thousands more terrorists to enter the US.

He won the first debate on msnbc according to the online voting which took place and he came in 2nd in the Fox New Debate, just barely missing Romney for No. 1.

I think the country is ready for a straight talker. I am so sickened by these polished bs'ers. We have one more shot to take back this country, as if this amnesty goes through you will never see another Republican in the White House. The Republican party will be virtually finished; which is what the Demos are counting on....... The Hispanic Vote

What Ron Paul said at the debate is in the CIA report and 9/11 commission report as to what led up to 9/11. As I saw him last night on CNN, it was not the American people that caused 9/ll; it is a failed foreign policy. Our country has been attacking Iraq for years and killing thousands and thousands of their people; via military effort and/or sanctions.

We've been attacking Iraq for years? Were we the ones that took Kuwait? Were we the ones that continued to violate rules imposed upon Iraq to make sure they weren't a threat to anyone else? WE'VE BEEN KILLING THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF THEIR PEOPLE???!!!

Ron Paul has no grasp on just how evil these people are, thus he cannot be president. If he does have a grasp, he has a tough time showing it. I like a lot of Dr. Paul's ideas for small government, but I cannot support someone that thinks it is our foreign policy that is to blame for the attacks on 9/11, and that it had nothing or little to do with the insanity or bloodlust of these killers.

Originally Posted by MW

I don't know if your post is directed at me, chloe24, but I gave an honest assessment on how I viewed his comment and how I think it came off with the viewing audience he was speaking too last night.

chloe24 wrote:

I would have been one of the masses who was conditioned by the mainstream media to think that America can do no wrong.

Exactly who are you accusing of being brainwashed by mainstream media? A difference of opinion doesn't necessarily mean someone has been "conditioned by the mainstream media."

Actually, I agree with your assessment. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just want to help people to wake up.

Again, I don't think that Ron Paul 'blamed Americans for the 9/11 attacks. He did say, with the 9/11 Commission and the CIA as backup, that our foreign policy has some BEARING on the situation. If 60+ years of meddling in other's affairs for profit and power wouldn't piss you off, then I'll never understand the point you're trying to make.

We've shucked and jived in the Middle East for the majority of the last CENTURY. We've installed tin-horn dictators to grease the wheels of the Corporate machine. We've done A LOT of shit that our founders would be NONE TOO PROUD OF.

Why is it unacceptable to discuss it out in the open where REASONABLE men and women can speak without the threat of censure? Are we THAT far down that road? If so, I'll just pack my family up to the mountains and see y'all after Armageddon.