Thread: LIST OF AMERICANS KILLED BY ILLEGAL ALIENS

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Originally Posted by CheyenneWoman

Here is the article I was looking for:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion
illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Li’l Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former Assistant U.S. Attorney Luis Li. Frank "Pancho Villa" Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

There is even more reading - Here's the link: (Now, I'm going to bed)

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html

http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/ ... to_th.html

""Fact" 2: 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
LAT citations: May 15, 2005 — "According to Heather MacDonald of the Manhattan Institute, 95% of the hundreds of outstanding homicide warrants (and 60% of outstanding felony warrants) in L.A. are for illegal immigrants."
Similar citations: January 19, 2004
Factual basis: An outstanding warrant is quite a different beast than a regular warrant, so this "fact" left out the key word. We did some more checking on the outstanding warrants point itself. MacDonald stated this in a 2004 City Journal article, and in testimony before the House of Representatives in spring 2005, noting that this came to 1,200-1,500 warrants. One LAPD officer cited the same factoid in the National Review earlier this year, saying that it's specific to "the first half of 2004". But Jane Robison, press secretary for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office, told us that the D.A. does not keep track of this number; a representative with Detective Headquarters said the same."

Ah, so now you resort to merely choosing to discard inconvenient facts. Your refusal to debate honestly is going to lead me to issue a stage 1 troll alert.

Hold on a minute. YOU quote a stat, that again has no basis in reality, and appears to have it's origins in one of those scary emails that get sent around the world. I show that in fact, the LA County DA's office don't keep such statistics, and I'm being dishonest?



Has anyone else ever tried to follow the paper trail of where a statistic on sites like realitycheck, or cis, or Lou Dobbs' mouth, or from any of you, actually comes from? It's fun. It just goes round and round and round and round. The next stop on the trip is always the one you left just 4 stops ago.

As they say, 67% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Since our little troll wants citations to back the alleged percentages of illegals in the prison system, I thought I would continue to oblige.

I found this one in the background info for the Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005:

The United States has experienced a drastic increase in crime committed by illegal aliens, particularly by illegal aliens that are members of criminal gangs. These criminal alien gangs are becoming increasingly prevalent throughout the country. 3

This disturbing trend is evidenced by the growing number of Federal inmates who are non-citizens, which is rapidly approaching 25 percent of the prison population. 4


[Footnote 3: See, e.g., Immigration and the Alien Gang Epidemic: Problems and Solutions: Hearing Before the Subcomm. on Immigration, Border Security and Claims of the House Comm. on the Judiciary, 109th Cong. (2005); Heather MacDonald, The Immigrant Gang Plague, the City Journal, Summer 2004; Heather MacDonald, The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave, The City Journal, Winter 2004.]

[Footnote 4: See Paige Harrison and Jennifer Karberg, Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 2003, Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin at 5 (May 2004)(23.5 percent of all Federal inmates were noncitizens as of June 30, 2003).]

Funny... Even our own Congress agrees that the percentage is in the ballpark of 25%, but MrLeft knows more than all these experts.

http://www.therealitycheck.org/StaffWri ... 051606.htm

Sources: US Justice Department, US Bureau of Prisons, General Accounting Office, American Federation of Police, National Association of Chiefs of Police

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Originally Posted by CheyenneWoman

Here is the article I was looking for:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion
illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Li’l Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former Assistant U.S. Attorney Luis Li. Frank "Pancho Villa" Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

There is even more reading - Here's the link: (Now, I'm going to bed)

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html

http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/ ... to_th.html

""Fact" 2: 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
LAT citations: May 15, 2005 — "According to Heather MacDonald of the Manhattan Institute, 95% of the hundreds of outstanding homicide warrants (and 60% of outstanding felony warrants) in L.A. are for illegal immigrants."
Similar citations: January 19, 2004
Factual basis: An outstanding warrant is quite a different beast than a regular warrant, so this "fact" left out the key word. We did some more checking on the outstanding warrants point itself. MacDonald stated this in a 2004 City Journal article, and in testimony before the House of Representatives in spring 2005, noting that this came to 1,200-1,500 warrants. One LAPD officer cited the same factoid in the National Review earlier this year, saying that it's specific to "the first half of 2004". But Jane Robison, press secretary for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office, told us that the D.A. does not keep track of this number; a representative with Detective Headquarters said the same."

Ah, so now you resort to merely choosing to discard inconvenient facts. Your refusal to debate honestly is going to lead me to issue a stage 1 troll alert.

Hold on a minute. YOU quote a stat, that again has no basis in reality, and appears to have it's origins in one of those scary emails that get sent around the world. I show that in fact, the LA County DA's office don't keep such statistics, and I'm being dishonest?



Has anyone else ever tried to follow the paper trail of where a statistic on sites like realitycheck, or cis, or Lou Dobbs' mouth, or from any of you, actually comes from? It's fun. It just goes round and round and round and round. The next stop on the trip is always the one you left just 4 stops ago.

As they say, 67% of statistics are made up on the spot.

No, fella, what you are doing is providing intentionally incomplete and/or irrelevant statistics while I am providing sources, including reports cited in Congress. Keep reading. I have a little bit of time this morning, so I'm going to keep providing sources for the oft-cited 25% figure. So far you have not rebutted anything. Let's see how you do as I continue to provide support for that figure.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Here you go. Here are the actual statistics from the year 2000:

"Data from the 5 percent Public Use Microsample (PUMS) of the 2000 census were used to measure the institutionalization rates of immigrants and natives, focusing on males 18 to 39, most of whom are in correctional facilities. Of the 45.2 million males age 18 to 39, three percent were in federal or state prisons or local jails at the time of the 2000 census — a total of over 1.3 million, in line with official prison statistics at that time.

Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men"

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Fea ... cfm?id=403

"Tellingly, among the foreign born, the highest incarceration rate by far (4.5 percent) was observed among island-born Puerto Ricans, who are not immigrants as such since they are US citizens by birth and can travel to the mainland as natives. If the island-born Puerto Ricans were excluded from the foreign-born totals, the national incarceration rate for the foreign born would drop to 0.68 percent.

Of particular interest is the finding that the lowest incarceration rates among Latin American immigrants are seen for the least educated groups: Salvadorans and Guatemalans (0.52 percent), and Mexicans (0.70 percent). These are precisely the groups most stigmatized as "illegals" in the public perception and outcry about immigration."

That's a useless statistic because it does not separate illegal aliens from legal immigrants and residents. What's more, there is no good measure of how many illegal immigrants are in this country, which means that there can be no valid percentage available for the purposes of determining thie relative incarceration rate. Your stat is an apple to the orange being discussed, but then you already knew that.

If you're not going to be honest, perhaps you should move on. Folks here are too intelligent to be duped by some numbskull quoting unrelated statistics.

Are you kidding?

I'll sum it up for you. If A + B is less than C, and remember we're dealing with positive numbers here, A can never be more than C.

Let's try it a different way. According to official figures from the US Department of justice, in mid-2005, 6.4% of the inmates at state and federal correctional facilities were non-citizens. That includes legals and illegals alike.

Do you honestly not understand what you are quoting, or is this another attempt to mislead?

Your formula above works ONLY when talking about aggregate totals. The formula fails when you are talking about RATE, which is an average. Allow me to illustrate:

The "rate" is for non-American born. That's a demographic that would include all legal and illegal citizens and non-citizens. Now, let's say hypothetically that we are looking at 5 million immigrants from Area A, 8 million immigrants from Area B, and 12 million immigrants from Area C. If there are only 3000 Area A immigrants incarcerated, 4500 Area B immigrants incarcerated, and 20,000 Area C immigrants incarcerated, the total incarceration rate for non-US born immigrants looks pretty darned low. Take areas A and B out of the equation, however, and the rate for Area C jumps considerably.

Without identifiying the area of origin or separating legal from illegal immigrants, there is no meaningful statistic that can be gathered from what you have provided because a low rate from one or more groups can more than offset a very high rate for another specific group. What you have provided is worthless for the purposes of this conversation, but you already knew that.

Do you realise just how law-abiding legal immigrants would have to be, and just how crime-ridden illegals would have to be for the illegals to overcome the fact that as a group they are incarcerated at a rate four times less than US born criminals?

What do you have to say about the US Dept of Justice figures that show the combined efforts of illegals and legals alike count for only 6.4% of state and federal inmates?

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by MrLeft

Originally Posted by Dixie

I think the fact they're here illegally and the fact they've killed people are not connected.

Yes it is connected. If they were not here, they would not be killing Americans.
[quote:2zk9xmf3]Lets make a list of Americans killed by Americans and see which one is longer. We have bigger problems to worry about.

NO, lets not because you are missing the point and defending illegal immigrants. They should not be here and Americans should not be suffering at their hands. We need to take up for ourselves and remove every last one of them. They are not innocent and here just to do a job. They make up 1/3rd or our prison population. That's just the ones that have been caught. They are not in prison because of minor violations. They have committed felonies, fraud, murder, rape.... Criminals are criminals and every illegal alien is a criminal.

The punishment for illegally entering the United States is deportation! We need more enforcement to keep up with all the illegal alien criminals and that will solve that problem. Believe me, it's coming because the people want it.

Thats funny. I wonder if Mexicans were thinking the same thing when we took Texas away from them in the 1800's. Oh and illegal immigrants DO NOT make up 1/3 of our prison population.

Where are you getting that 1/3rd of the prison population is illegal immigrants stat from?

According to the US Department of Justice, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim05.pdf , in mid 1995, 6.4% of state and federal prison population was non-citizens. Even California only goes as high as 10%.

Having done a google search I see your stat posted a million times on paranoid right-wing sites, and never with an actual link to the source of the stat. The closest I've found is "I heard Lou Dobbs say". And to be honest, that's not really doing it for me.

LOL!!!

This time the boy had to go back over a decade to find a convenient statistic!

Hey fella, I note that you have totally avoided my first rebuttal of your straw man argument. May I take that as a concession of your error?

That stat is from 2005. I've no clue why I typed 1995. If you bothered to look at the link you would have realised.

So do you have a link for your claims or not?

I posted the links to my claims. Didn't you bother to read the posts?[/quote:2zk9xmf3]

I'm sorry, but "Lou Dobbs said it" is not good enough. I want to actually see where you stat originates from, not just two websites parroting a made up statistic.

I'm enjoying this little game, so let's keep going.

How do you feel about the reliability of the GAO? It produced the report in 2005 that is most frequently cited.

Here were its findings relative to the numbers of aliens as a percentage of the prison population for 2001-2004 (page 15 of the report):

total * US citizens * aliens

2001: 154,290 * 111,866 * 42,424
2002: 161,110 * 117,037 * 44,073
2003: 170,365 * 124,302 * 46,063
2004: 178,512 * 129,804 * 48,708

That works out to 27.3% for 2004 and an average for the period of 27.3%. I would say that's pretty consistent.

Here's a link to the GAO report, titled Information on Criminal Aliens Incarcerated in Federal and State Prisons and Local Jails:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

Are we getting close to being able to agree that the percentage of aliens in our prisons is something over 25%?

Originally Posted by Charlesoakisland

MrLeft, if the illegal invader had not committed the crime of coming here in the first place, then the murder by that illegal person would never happen and another American family would not be suffering because of the illegal invasion.

Charles pretty much sums it up here.

I'll admit that I haven't closely read all the posts here but I have done some research in NC. The NC Department of Corrections keeps tabs on nationality/country of birth but does not differentiate as to legal/illegal.

Originally Posted by MrLeft

I'm sorry, but "Lou Dobbs said it" is not good enough. I want to actually see where you stat originates from, not just two websites parroting a made up statistic.

Now you're just dissembling. I have provided numerous specific citations, with "Lou Dobbs" being the one for which I specifically stated I did not know the source. So are you a liar or a propagandist? The cites included the GAO (whose report I have now linked in an above post), the US Bureau of Prisons, and the US justice Dept. as well as a Bureau of Justice statisitics bulletin, Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 2003. Ah, but all you can point to is "Lou Dobbs." What a cheap little man you are!

BTW - I'd like to see your comment on the fairly definitive GAO report which inlcudes data for 2001 through 2004.

False. For the Reality Check site, the sources are cited at the end of the article.

The stats aren't "wrong." You just don't like them.

They conveniently do not associate particular stats with particular sites. That is always a clue when looking for made up stats.

They purport to use the same sources that I used (and that you ignore), yet their stats do not appear anywhere in the actual source.

Similarly, the .pdf you cited does not provide total numbers of prison inmates by race, as you seem to falsely claim.

I made no such claim.

Did I claim it or just seem to claim it?

What it provides is another screwy stat, which is RATE per 100,000 residents. Note that in the total for all age groups, Hispanics are incarcerated at a higher rate than all groups listed except blacks, as follows:

White: 709
Black: 4682
Hispanic: 1856
Other: 1371

The heck are you babbling about? The use of per 100,000 is not used for the stat I quoted (that 6.4% one), and even if it was it would not change a thing - it would still be 6.4%. You are clearly unsure what rates and percentages are.

You know this trick you use of arguing against a non-existant point? Well it sucks.

I'm actually curious, apart from displaying obvious racism, what your point is here? Are you now suggesting blacks and hispanics are actually the problem?

As far as the percentage in the state and federal prison systems, that number cannot be ascertained from this data, which is an aggregate RATE for prisons AND local and county jails. Furthermore, the RATE is for the "US resident population." Illegal aliens are not legal US residents, so it is unclear as to whether they are even included in these stats.

I think this is what they call moving the goalposts.

And yes, non-citizens is for all inmates that are not citizens. Seems pretty self-explanatory.

Furthermore, table 14, for example, demonstrates the oddball methodology employed, which I detail below.

1. Counts by race and Hispanic origin were estimated.
2. To correct for missing data, reoprts for each group were aggregated by State, converted to percentages, then multiplied by the total prison and jail counts.
3. (and this is the kicker!) These numbers EXCLUDE ALL INMATES SENTENCED TO MORE THAN ONE YEAR.

Table 14 is to do with race and gender.

1. We're not talking about race or gender are we?

2. Did you miss where it says "for each group"? And why oh why did you italicise "converted to percentages"? Again, we're not even talking about race.

3. That is only for the District of Columbia

The percentage of "non-citizen" inmates is given as 19% for FEDERAL prisons, but the state prison rate is screwy. Why? Because if you look at the notes for stats from the individual states, their methodology for determining this stat varies greatly, with many states not even providing that stat. So in those cases we are back to the issue of averaging based upon percentage of population, which does not appear to be adjusted for higher incarceration rates for many of the races representing the non-citizens.

Um, no. Every state provides the stat for state prisoners.

So this is scarcely a useful set of statistics for determining the accuracy of the claim that about 1/3 or prison inmates are illegal aliens, is it? It is estimated, provided in "rates" that don't separate illegals from legals, and it excludes the HUGE demographic of inmates sentenced to more than one year. Nice going!

Only in DC are those sentanced to 1 year or more not included. DC has the 3rd lowest percentage of non-citizens inmates.

The document, an official one from the US Dept of Justice, states clearly, and I quote

"State and federal correctional authorities held 91,117 noncitizens (6.4% of all prisoners), down from 91,815 at midyear 2004".

That is not a rate per 100,000. It doesn't need to separate illegals and non-illegals, if it did the % would have to be less than the 6.4% of those two combined.

You must not have taken any statistics classes in school, because you seem to have no idea what the stats you are citing do and do not demonstrate.

You needed to take a class to reach your level?