Thread: Britain votes to leave EU in historic "Brexit' vote

Beezer wrote:

Hope the rest follow suit and get out of EU, dissolve UN and screw NATO.

Beezer, what if all the NATO participants payed their pro-rata share of GDP to the US for our cost based on our % of overall participation and equipment? Do you value the importance of NATO or has it just become obsolete in your view because of cost?

Originally Posted by joe s

Beezer, what if all the NATO participants payed their pro-rata share of GDP to the US for our cost based on our % of overall participation and equipment? Do you value the importance of NATO or has it just become obsolete in your view because of cost?

There is nothing to value in NATO. We can look back and wonder at the sincerity of the claim that NATO was a bulwark against communism. Clearly it was about something else. Otherwise the end of the Soviet Union should have been the end of NATO. Instead it continued to grow and now provokes the Russian Federation. NATO -- mostly represented by the US -- bombed Serbs and Serbia when they were up against the same monsters that prowl our streets slaughtering the weak, helpless and innocent.

Americans need to remember how and why we won WWII in 3 years and 8 months, fighting behemoth monsters on two fronts that spanned the entire globe. Until Americans truly understand the essence of how and why we won, which most don't, because history doesn't teach it, elders don't discuss it because our WWII Vets never talked about it, and so much of our population now isn't even from here to begin with, but there are those who know, the English know, the French know, the Russians know, the Chinese know, the Germans know, the Japanese know .... because their elders were there, they saw and witnessed and passed it down.

I challenge everyone to watch TV News for awhile, I know it's hard, but do it as an experiment and tell me how many of the "journalists", talk-heads, pundits, commentaries, news anchors, guests and so forth do you feel could have been part of a WWII victory for the United States.

And while you're at it, do the same thing for the NEVER TRUMP, STOP TRUMP, ANYONE BUT TRUMP, DUMP TRUMP people, worried about casting a vote in accordance with the state party they're a delegate for but wanting to challenge that obligation in a court room to bypass democracy at the national convention.

Originally Posted by joe s

Beezer wrote:



Beezer, what if all the NATO participants payed their pro-rata share of GDP to the US for our cost based on our % of overall participation and equipment? Do you value the importance of NATO or has it just become obsolete in your view because of cost?

There are pro and cons to NATO. A definite con is our financial contributions to the NATO budget (two-thirds). I guess the old adage that freedom doesn't come cheap applies to more than the cost of human life.

The Russians and Chinese have serious intentions right now, have made a lot of provocations recently and a lot of equipment and manpower to back it up. They are constantly probing their electronic intrusions with cyber attacks against practically every known business and government agency with success. This will eventually culminate in some sort of electronic warfare on the financial system, electric grid,...the possibilities are endless. While Obama himself recently admitted NATO participants need to pay their fare share, its value may not appear like a good investment during peace time, but keep in mind that the Chinese have recently built a man made island in international waters an intend to have the rest of the world observe those waters differently.

IMO, when financial arrangements are geared more towards fair sharing, then it might be more appealing to some of its opponents. If Russia and China would love to see its demise, it may not be in our long term best interests to dissolve it.

They are not going to pay their fair share and they have never paid their fair share. The US pays the bills for everything and we are not the world's ATM machine anymore...22 TRILLION in debt. I think their "mission" needs to be changed as well, just like Trump said.

These countries need to start paying the bucks to build up their own military and defend themselves...NOT the U.S. footing the bill. Many of these countries are socialist and spend their money on the health care, retirement and cushy lives. Why are USA taxpayers paying more...to compensate for their lifestyle. Wrong!

And this Human Trafficking and mass migration needs to be stopped in it's tracks. Millions and millions of people cannot just abandon their lands and invade others! Start solving the problem on their soil, and that includes population control. ALL refugee men should be sent back to fight...why the hell are we fighting their Civil Wars?

If these countries want our help and aid then a MANDATORY "Comprehensive Plan for Reform" must be agreed upon, along with a team of Professionals that go in and implement it. Or no help, no money, no oatmeal. It is a unlimited money pit.

Otherwise the end of the Soviet Union should have been the end of NATO.

Are you suggesting that we can trust Russia now?

Aggression and support in Ukraine, Syria and Iran for starters......suppliers of weaponry, munitions, massive producers of oil and relentless accumulators of gold. They present a very clear and present danger still or am I not seeing the picture quite clearly?

Originally Posted by joe s

....

IMO, when financial arrangements are geared more towards fair sharing, then it might be more appealing to some of its opponents. If Russia and China would love to see its demise, it may not be in our long term best interests to dissolve it.

China has absolutely nothing to do with NATO. NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. There is a similar treaty organization in the Pacific, but it is not a huge player.

Originally Posted by joe s

Are you suggesting that we can trust Russia now?

Aggression and support in Ukraine, Syria and Iran for starters......suppliers of weaponry, munitions, massive producers of oil and relentless accumulators of gold. They present a very clear and present danger still or am I not seeing the picture quite clearly?

Remember that NATO was not created to be an anti-Russian institution, it was supposed to be an anticommunist institution. It's job was to confront the Soviet Union which was largely characterized by Russian participation. But the threat from Communism was global and not exclusively a Russian problem. The presence of the Russian Federation is something completely different. History informs the Russian people, and it should inform us too, that Russia has more to fear from the West than the West has to fear from Russia.

The Russians are not aggressors in Ukraine, Syria or Iran. In the Ukraine, it is ethnic Russians who are being threatened and the defense of their communities has led to civil war. It is a relief to see the Russians in Syria doing the job that nobody else seems interested in doing. In fact, the US in particular, seems to be on the side of ISIS. Russia's relations with Iran are a little harder to fathom. I would like to see the Russians be much colder to the theocracy in Iran, they don't have any more interest in advancing the regime than we do. But they aren't treating Iran any better than the current president is.

The USSR was once an economic power house and loomed as an economic threat. The West waged an economic war on it and it collapsed. China, we should notice, continues to be communist and shows every evidence of a prosperous future with increasing military power on its coasts and borders. The Russian Federation represents a huge part of the industrial world and should not expect to take an economic back seat to the US or anyone else. This is not a threat, it is just reality.

NATO needs to go. It's vitality, even during the Cold War, is called more and more into question.

Originally Posted by Beezer

They are not going to pay their fair share and they have never paid their fair share. The US pays the bills for everything and we are not the world's ATM machine anymore...22 TRILLION in debt. I think their "mission" needs to be changed as well, just like Trump said.

These countries need to start paying the bucks to build up their own military and defend themselves...NOT the U.S. footing the bill. Many of these countries are socialist and spend their money on the health care, retirement and cushy lives. Why are USA taxpayers paying more...to compensate for their lifestyle. Wrong!

And this Human Trafficking and mass migration needs to be stopped in it's tracks. Millions and millions of people cannot just abandon their lands and invade others! Start solving the problem on their soil, and that includes population control. ALL refugee men should be sent back to fight...why the hell are we fighting their Civil Wars?

If these countries want our help and aid then a MANDATORY "Comprehensive Plan for Reform" must be agreed upon, along with a team of Professionals that go in and implement it. Or no help, no money, no oatmeal. It is a unlimited money pit.

I agree with much of what you're saying. However, it is my sense that our government wants to limit the military might of other countries least they get too big for their britches. Germany and Japan are good examples. Being more powerful than your friends keeps them dependent on you and being more powerful than your enemies keeps them afraid of you. No lamb want to fight a lion. I do believe the ancient saying, dating back to Roman Emperor Hadrian, "peace through strength" is a worthwhile concept. Most folks probably couldn't even imagine the turmoil our world would suffer if every country was equal in military power.

I don't really have all the answers. Just wanted to share another point of view for consideration.

Originally Posted by MW

I agree with much of what you're saying. However, it is my sense that our government wants to limit the military might of other countries least they get too big for their britches. Germany and Japan are good examples. Being more powerful than your friends keeps them dependent on you and being more powerful than your enemies keeps them afraid of you. No lamb want to fight a lion. I do believe the ancient saying, dating back to Roman Emperor Hadrian, "peace through strength" is a worthwhile concept. Most folks probably couldn't even imagine the turmoil our world would suffer if every country was equal in military power.

I don't really have all the answers. Just wanted to share another point of view for consideration.

What you are missing is that military power extends from economic prosperity. A country cannot be militarily powerful if it is not economically prosperous. And military power protects that prosperity if national sovereignty is the first concern. Both the Russian Federation and the PRC are very clearly on their way to economic prosperity.

Russia has always been a military power even before the Soviet Union. China has only recently elevated itself into the industrial age. We cannot expect China to be a subservient power as it was in the days of pre-industrial Imperial China. China would be extending its influence even if it were not communist. Notice China does not appear to be claiming to advance the cause of communism.

The world is seeing new realities and the days when the US or any other Western power could just naturally assume dominance are coming to an end. The answer to this is not global government. The answer is national sovereignty and mutual respect of the same. Global government risks the old imperial power holders in the Catholic Church and Islam. Islam in particular is the threat that eclipses any potential threat from either China or the Russian Federation. The global threat of communism has subsided, if not evaporated.