Thread: Deportation = Economic "meltdown?"

I "got into it" with a friend of mine last night who refused to believe that the illegals drive down wages. In fact, he claimed via "basic economics" that doing the right thing, and deporting these criminals, would actually LOWER wages and cause a massive depression. That massive price increases on everything from avocados to motels to restaurants would ruin us.

I pointed out to him the reality that the slaughterhous jobs all went up in pay, and were filled within 2 weeks. And that in reality anything in economics that is "false" or artificial is very, very dangerous.

But he just waved me off. After all, he's in business school, and said it was an inarguable fact.

While I certainly agree that we've gotten used to "artifically low" prices for certain things, from everything I can read, and devine, making things "right" would merely be uncomfortable. At the most. But I'd be interested in opinions here...

Here's one......

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007

Accelerating Middle Class Poverty
Frosty Wooldridge
March 26, 2007

According to Newsweek, 38 million Americans live below the poverty line.

The federal government defines that line as an annual income of $20,000 or less for a family of four. For the first time in our history, more of America's poor live in the suburbs than cities.

In Bedford Heights, Cleveland, Ohio five years ago, a Hunger Network food pantry served 50 families per month. Today, 700 families depend on the pantry for food. Why? Manufacturing jobs shrink with outsourcing, offshoring, insourcing and millions of ILLegal migrants taking jobs from American citizens.

History -- A Great Teacher

Remember feudalism in ancient Europe? Remember how kings sat in their castles while serfs tilled the fields, brought food in payment for taxes, died in wars and lived in miserable poverty? Remember the Broadway production of Camelot with Guinevere listening while the king sang, "What are the common people thinking tonight?"

Remember how 20th century Robber Barons like Rockefeller, Swift, Amour, Carnegie, Gates, Gould, Morgan, Vanderbilt, Kennedy and others manipulated workers while amassing obscene fortunes?

We enjoyed a vibrant Middle-Class by the mid sixties.

In order to thwart corporate strangle-hold on American workers, unions formed to give the common laborer collective power. The AFL—CIO, with such men as Walter Reuther, George Meany and others forced corporations to pay a living wage with decent family benefits.

However, unseen trouble lurked on the horizon.

In 1965, Teddy Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson slipped an immigration bill through Congress that jumped immigration from 175,000 immigrants annually to 1.1 million each year -- a sudden, six-fold increase.

Onslaught of undocumented foreign-nationals

So-called legal immigrants busted unions and lowered wages. By 1986 millions of "ILLegal" poverty stricken peasants from Third World countries crossed over our borders.

They took jobs at half or one-third the wages paid by corporations. For example, meat packers in the 1980s earned $18.00 an hour with benefits. Construction workers earned $22.00 an hour. American cab drivers earned a decent living. Catastrophic changes descended on working America.

The slave-labor workers decimated our lower- middle-class

All of a sudden, companies found a mother lode of workers in ILLegal migrants. They grabbed jobs from American workers at $6.00 an hour, lived 20 to a trailer or apartment and found they could tap into free medical care and schooling for themselves and their children. They drove cars without licenses or insurance. They worked off the books without paying income taxes.

Voila! The new Robber Barons of the 21st century found their new slave class. These new slaves weren't African Negroes shackled in chains while being torn from their country. No! These new workers arrived mostly from Mexico where the average worker earned(s) $3.85 per day. Why? Mexico's Robber Barons perfected their strangle-hold on slave class dominance.

What is the result?

Today, corporations crush America's Middle-Class into our newest poverty class. Our working poor stand in welfare lines. You can’t find an American cab driver any more. You’ve got Muslims who won’t take you if you carry something they don’t like while African immigrants can’t understand English. Swift, Hormel, Tyson, Wal-Mart and hundreds of other large employers engage in illegal hiring practices. They're not alone! McDonald's, Burger King, Chipotle's, Pizza Hut and many other fast food chains employ ILLegal aliens. Construction firms, house painting, drywall contractors and roofers hire ILLegal aliens at a fraction of a livable wage.

Bill Gates leads the new 21st century Robber Barons. (Read the book: Robber Barons by Mathew Josephson) Gates' immense $50 billion fortune allows him to dictate to Congress on how many H1-B and H2-B visas can be offered. Thus far, more than 1,000,000 American high tech workers lost their jobs to insourced foreign workers. Over 3,000,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs vanished into India, Mexico and China.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articl ... leID=22874

He needs to write a business paper backing this up with data and turn it in. Let's see what kind of grade he gets.

Illegals account for only about 2% of US economic output. Where they are concentrated like in restraunts and agriculture, they lower consumer prices by only about 5% to 10%. At the same time of course they lower wages and increase taxes for everyone.

So if they were gone, a few items would cost a little more, but we would also have more money to pay for these few items plus for everything else! Overall the economy would be better off and more sound, plus the dollar would stop falling.

Ed,
Here's a few more you can give.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9380 (not the same story as below)



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http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/news/news.asp?ID=4849
The True Cost of Illegal Immigration: In Plain English
By Yahoo! News
10/31/2006

An analysis that dispels myths and lays out the facts about the cost of illegal immigration -- in plain language, for once.

1. Do illegal immigrants really take jobs from American workers?

Yes, they do.

There is no doubt that to many native-born U.S. workers illegal immigrants represent competition, plain and simple. The economic platitude that “immigrants take jobs no American would do” – expressed by both President Bush and Mexican President Vicente Fox – is only partly true. Many Americans wait tables, wash dishes, mop floors and lay bricks for a living. In fact, more than 80 percent of jobs in the farming, cleaning, construction and food preparation sectors – jobs usually associated with illegal immigrants – are held by native-born Americans.

Out of 473 job classifications, as assigned by the Center for Immigration Studies, just four are made up predominately by illegal immigrants: stucco masons, tailors, produce sorters and beauty salon workers.

Which is a fancy way of saying there aren’t many jobs that American workers won’t do.

2. But aren’t there some crucial American industries that rely heavily on immigrant workers?

Absolutely.

Slightly less than half of America’s farm workers are in this country illegally, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. In fact, last year more than a billion dollars worth of lettuce rotted in the fields of Arizona because farmers couldn’t marshal enough seasonal (read: illegal) help.

And Big Ag isn’t the only industry hiring massive amounts of illegal workers. Trailing closely behind are restaurants, construction, food processing, landscaping and the hospitality industry. In other words: Many, many American businesses count on the hearty work ethic and strong backs of illegal workers to stay afloat.

Financial analysts have even begun warning clients that if restrictive immigration legislation is passed at the federal level, stock portfolios heavy on these industries could suffer dramatically.

Another rarely discussed consideration is the fact that illegal immigrants often fill jobs that would otherwise be outsourced. For example, without immigrants filling the ranks of the U.S. garment industry, Americans would undoubtedly be importing even more clothing and textiles from countries like China, further widening the already chasmal trade deficit.

Illegal immigrants do take jobs from Americans on occasion, but they also contribute significantly to a number of important U.S. industries in a way that American workers simply can’t. To assume that business as usual can continue in America without them is myopic.

3. Does the presence of illegal immigrants drive down wages for American workers?

Yes, a little.

Several recent studies have demonstrated that one segment of workers in particular – the lowest-paid, lowest-skilled Americans – find their wages depressed across the board by illegal immigrants. (The decrease is 5 percent in one study, 7.2 percent in the other.) African and Hispanic American workers are hit especially hard, due to their disproportionately large representation in this economic demographic.

Yet the situation becomes less cut-and-dry when we stop to consider that illegal immigrant workers drive down the cost of almost all goods and services for all consumers. Thus, by working for such low wages, illegal workers actually increase the spending power of Americans.

So while Americans’ paychecks might be a bit lighter because illegal immigrants are willing to work for so little, their dollars are also stretching further.

4. What about federal benefits and aid programs? Do illegal immigrants take more than they give?

Probably not – at least if you look at the big picture.

Some parts of the country have unambiguous financial crises on their hands, and part of the blame belongs to illegal immigrants. California, for example, loses an estimated $10 billion annually taking care of its illegal immigrants.

There are a number of government programs that are being crushed under the weight of illegal immigrants – most seriously healthcare. Illegal immigrants don’t qualify for government health programs, and businesses that hire them tend not to offer health coverage of any kind.

As a result, when illegal workers become sick or injured – and they become injured at a far higher rate than native workers due to the demanding physical nature of their jobs – they inevitably take the only route available to them: They head to the nearest emergency room. Hospitals are required by federal law to provide emergency care regardless of patients’ visa status or ability to pay. Thus, some areas of the country have experienced a tremendous drain in healthcare resources as illegal immigrant populations have risen ($2.5 billion a year, according to Census Bureau data). Prisons and schools also face major hurdles in accommodating the expanding illegal immigrant population.

But that is just one side of the story. Many other governmental programs actually benefit from the presence of illegal immigrants, particularly Social Security and Medicare. Both programs – intended to benefit the elderly – receive billions in tax revenue from illegal immigrants. Unlike normal taxpayers, however, illegal immigrants will never be able to recollect their benefits later on down the line, thus providing a windfall.

5. So what’s the bottom line? How do illegal immigrants affect the economy as a whole?

Sorry, folks. The bottom line is that there isn’t a bottom line.

In many ways, illegal immigrants contribute heavily to America. They work low-paying, physically demanding jobs that many Americans – though not all – would rather not do. In many cases, they do jobs that would otherwise be outsourced altogether. And in doing so, they make money for innumerable tax-paying U.S. companies and drive down the cost of goods and services for every American.

In other undeniable ways, illegal immigrants are taking a heavy toll on the system. Without a comprehensive federal policy in place, many cities and states are being crushed under the burden of providing basic services for them. And with two-thirds of illegal immigrants lacking high school diplomas, the amount they can reasonably be expected to contribute to the tax pool is decidedly less than other better-educated American workers.

Ultimately, there are too many variables to determine the exact financial impact of illegal immigration in the United States. But one thing is certain: Not determining it will prove most costly of all.

Please visit The True Cost of Illegal Immigration: In Plain English for media rich content and related stories. Produced as part of the Carnegie Knight Initiative on the Future of Journalism Education.

Another good one by the awesome patriot Frosty.

By Frosty Wooldridge
November 6, 2006
NewsWithViews.com

An October report by the Washington Post exposed illegal aliens sending $25 billion in cash back to Mexico annually. Another $25 billion transfers to Central and South America. An additional $16 billion U.S. dollars vanish into Asia annually.

Cash remittances sent back to immigrant countries bleed the United States into serious financial consequences. We suffer a $700 billion annual trade deficit from over 3.1 million jobs off-shored and out-sourced—compliments of your U.S. Congress with their wonderful H-1B, H-2B and L-1 visas giveaways.

As to cash draining out of the United States, illegals earned that money by working under the table to cheat the IRS. Every working American citizen must pay the difference. Employers paid money out, but didn’t record it, so they could hide their profits. That’s money illegals made taking jobs from America’s middle class workers.

Bear-Stearns reported last year that illegal aliens in the United States comprise the second largest underground economy in the world. They do not pay $301 billion in IRS income taxes annually. You pay the difference.

Politicians and corporate America call such illegality “cheap labor” or the presidential definition, “They do the jobs Americans won’t do.” What Bush doesn’t tell you is, “Illegal aliens work at slave wages, which no American could work to support a family, pay a mortgage, run a car or buy food.”

Let’s examine the oxymoron of “cheap labor” as it applies to our new 20 million person slave working class.

For example, take an average illegal alien with his wife and five kids. He works for $6.00 an hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax even if he presented a counterfeit social security card. But at the end of the year, if he files an income tax return, he receives “earned income credit” up to $3,200.00 free.

His “anchor baby” children each received free hospital care at $5,000.00 per birth which totals $25,000.00 of a hospital’s funds. Since illegals don’t pay, hospitals pass the costs on to you in higher rates. Illegal children also receive K-12 education at your expense. Some quick math shows one of his children’s schooling at 13 years X’s $7,000.00 per year equals $91,000.00. By including all five kids, you’re paying out $364,000.00 in taxes to school children from another country. When you add up free breakfasts and lunches at $5.00 per meal that equals 180 school days X’s $10.00 for two meals daily, that equals $1,800.00 X’s five kids equals $9,000.00 in food.

When you multiply just the schooling for the 380,000 anchor babies annually, it turns out that “cheap labor” costs you, the American taxpayer, $34.5 billion annually to educate them. It costs you $1.9 billion to pay for their hospital births each year. These calculations take into account any taxes they may pay if they do work on the books. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, an illegal alien during his lifetime while working in the USA will create a net drain on the American taxpayer of $55,000.00. In a more recent report, Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation reported that cost at $100,000.00.

Because of his poverty and children, an illegal alien qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent. He and his wife qualify for food stamps and you can bet they draw them.

Additionally, his wife, kids and he qualify for a lifetime of free medical care. If his children are premature or suffer from Downs Syndrome or suffer heart problems, you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in hospitals costs. That’s why 86 hospitals in California bankrupted out of service in the past five years.

The average illegal kid requires a bilingual teacher at a cost of $9,200.00 a year X’s five kids equals $46,000.00 annually, but, of course, the kids don’t want to learn English in enclaved barrios such as Chicago, Houston and Los Angeles. They could care less! Your kids suffer degraded educational experiences. Current estimates show over 3.1 million illegal alien children attending U.S. schools. Their parents Pedro and Juanita qualify for financial relief from energy bills. If they become disabled, they may qualify for Social Security Income.

To give you a sobering, if not astonishing idea of what illegals working in our country costs us, Lou Dobbs at CNN reported on his program, Saturday, November 11, 2006, education for illegals in New York cost taxpayers $5.0 billion annually while California’s illegal population, now over 3.1 million; costs them $6.0 billion annually.

Millions of illegals drive cars in America. Despite the lack of a driver’s license, car insurance, or accident insurance, when they suffer an accident from driving illegally and drunk, you pay for everything. The cost in wrecked American lives: tens of thousands! Cost of repairs paid by you: billions of dollars! Costs to our hospitals: billions of dollars!

When you add in the $1.6 billion you pay in federal funds to pay for the 618,000 convicted illegal aliens sitting in our state and federal prisons, you can’t define them as “cheap labor” much longer. You can’t define them as “slave labor” either. You may define their lives as “free room and board” provided by you.

When you look at the millions of American working poor now standing in the food stamp and unemployment lines, billions of your hard earned dollars pay for their welfare and medical payments--the real meaning of illegal aliens working the jobs that “Americans won’t do” brings a whole new understanding to “cheap labor.”

Looking further, if you add up all the graffiti, trash pickup, $140 billion in drugs being distributed by illegals, drug rehab, Americans being killed by illegals and a host of other consequences—“cheap labor” my armpit!

When any entity feeds off another being, it becomes a parasite. Today, Mexico, Asia, Central and South America devour the United States like parasites. Worse, our elected “parasites” in Washington, DC make it possible by ignoring our immigration laws. They allow illegal “parasites” to suck the financial lifeblood out of our country while the illegals destroy our educational, medical, prison, language and cultural integrity.

This Tuesday, vote all incumbents out of office that have shown their refusal to uphold the U.S. Constitution. That’s just about all of them!



[/b]

Ed,
100000 employees competing for 25000 jobs = Employer Benefits
25000 employees competing for 100000 jobs = Employees benefits.

Why because employers have to offer more to attract the employee to their business.

When they all go home there will be better wages pulling welfare and unemployment Recipients off the Government dole. There will be more benefits offered to attract employees. Less job turn over as employers will have a more difficult time filling positions. There will be new industries popping up for mechanism's to compensate for the lack of field workers.

There will be summer jobs for kids and for college students. Medical insurance premiums will drop because people will be paying their bills. Your buddy is still wet behind the ears. It is good for business because it keeps benefits and wages depressed while they are here, thus the reason Bush wants to keep them here for his big business buddies. That way the CEO's and such can keep their multi-million yearly salaries. In reality labor is a minor portion of the cost of a manufactured product. There are many other factors.

Originally Posted by edstate

But he just waved me off. After all, he's in business school, and said it was an inarguable fact.

Stop troubling your friend with facts edstate!!

The problem with most economists and business types is that they treat it as a religion rather than a science.....In other words, don't bring up examples from the real world that may give imperical evidence of your theory, just believe that certian things are "inarguable facts."

While I certainly agree that we've gotten used to "artifically low" prices for certain things, from everything I can read, and devine, making things "right" would merely be uncomfortable. At the most. But I'd be interested in opinions here...

George Borjas is the name in immigration economics....According to him, we could raise the wages in the agricultural industry by 40% and we would see merely a $10.00 increase for ALL of the produce consumed for an ENTIRE family of four, for an ENTIRE year. Also, through Borjas' work he found that illegals depress wages for unskilled workers by 7.4%. Other research shows that illegals depress wages for the average American born male by $1,700 annually. You might also point out to your friend that they cost us $30 billion a year in social services they use, and we lose $35 billion a year in tax revenue, because they do not pay income taxes. A combined $65 billion a year--the cost of a Katrina every three years. Also, American citizens make up the vast majority of every field of employment in this country, in case he wants to argue that whole "jobs Americans won't do" BS. If you want, I can write the exact numbers and fields for you.

I too used to be persuaded by the "economics of immigration." The Wall Street Journal is full of this treasonous BS. So is the media in general. In fact just today I was reminiscing of my college days, and remembered one of my liberal teachers saying, "If you think immigration is bad for the economy, your not reading the right information." I guess the most respected name on the subject (Borjas) doesn't count......

Edstate,

Ask your buddy in business school, why I as an American, I have to earn poverty level wages working in cars, because I have to compete with shops that staff their business with guys who can't speak English. But will work for pennies on the dollar. In fact there is one shop I frequent that has one American employee, out of 14, and the rest need a translator to speak with me.

How inexperienced is your friend. I'd like to see what he would say if he had to work for slavery level wages. Ask him for me how he would like to see his wages spiral from 40 to 60k a year to 8k a year over a 5 year period. And I'm tired of changing careers because the unscrupulous tactics used by big business are accepted. I got run out of the tree and landscaping business, truck driving, and now with automotive, I have made my line in the sand.

Oh, and let him know, that I have to know and understand Gov. Rules and Regulation concerning the areas of automotive that I deal with. I have to do the same with mechanical, and electrical systems for new cars, that there are no manuals, or other literature for.

To me, your buddy sounds like a posterchild for the current administration.

But he just waved me off. After all, he's in business school, and said it was an inarguable fact.

'inarguable' to him maybe...

Here's a tidbit on the same note...

A couple of years ago, I heard a story on NPR about a study done to gauge business ethics. It was done by a sociology professor (?) at one of the larger univerisities in Ohio (THE Ohio State Univ., Kent State, etc - can't remember offhand) ... this is all by memory so cut me some slack here...

Anyway, the experimental design was basically to give out a questionnaire to 2 groups which attempted to quantify the moral/ethical integrity of the recipient. The 2 groups were:

1. Degreed MBAs or those in graduate business school
2. Convicted (I believe incarcerated) felons.

Want to guess which group's response scored highest?
Let's just say the MBAs did not!

(OK, I confess, I do love this story...)


PS. If I can dig up the source info I'd be happy to post it back here

Wow! thanks for the responses... I'll read them when I get a spare 1/2 hour... thanks guys!

e

Also... this sounds like it's Obama's main argument too, from that letter in the other post!