Thread: Help me out guys!

I'm in a debate about the cost of illegal immigration. There was a list of miscellaneous cost by various origanizations, posted here just a few days. I can't find it now. Does anyone know what thread it was on?

Does the potential for the US eventually splitting apart factor in as a cost?

Hhmmm, well I posted this a few days ago. Is this it?

Its too difficult to disect the OBL's post, because one again they fail to make a distiction between ILLEGAL and LEGAL.

But let me just say......ILLEGAL immigrants are positively, without question an economic and social DRAIN -- by far without question.......

ILLEGAL immigrants are mostly employed...Well yes, they come to take jobs at a cheaper rate that Americans -- thereby draining the wages of American born males at a rate of $1,700 anually, and 7,4% for the working poor. THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE MORE THAN THEY PUT INTO THE SYSTEM. Because they take dirt cheap wages, they qualify for welfare and other social services -- COSTING $30 BILLION a year in the social services they consume. And because MANY do not pay income taxes, we lose $35 BILLION A YEAR IN LOST TAX REVENUE. A cumulative cost of 65 BILLION A YEAR -- the cost of a Katrina every 3 years. Those who do pay income taxes are guilty of using fake SS#s and identity fraud. And if you want to argue "jobs Americans won't do," Americans account for the vast majority of EVERY FIELD OF EMPLOYMENT IN OUR ECONOMY. And if you want to argue that we save on the goods produced using illegal labor -- we could raise wages in the indusry by 40% and an average family of four would pay only TEN DOLLARS for ALL of the produce consumed for AN ENTIRE YEAR.

Just look at Los Angeles to see what illegals do to an economy, and social fabric of a community.

Illegals have reintroduced diseases into this nation that were long ago eradicated, including TB, Malaria, hepetitus, and even Leprosy. 82 hospitals in California have closed due to illegal immigrants packing the ERs.

According to Jorge Boosh, among the illegals detained by ICE from 2000-2005: ONE IN TWELVE HAD CRIMINAL RECORDS. 29% of our federal prison population are illegal immigrants. Illegals are primarily resposible for making ARIZONA the leading state in crime according to the FBI. MS-13 and the 18th Street gang are illegal immigrant gangs and are the bloodiest in Los Angeles history. Illegals are primarily responsible for the rise in gang violence -- the only violent crime on the rise.

Lets also not forget that 58% of Mexicans believe the American SW belongs to Mexico. And other Zogby poll results reflect a very anti American attitude in Mexico against Americans. Racist Mexican activist organizations openly call for retaking the region for Mexico, as does the Mexican government....The same Mexican government that promotes dual citizenship for ALL of Mexican background, and a "Mexico first" attitude for them. They openly say they are strengthening their political influence within the USA, and their embassy's print text books for our school promoting Mexican nationalism and the Mexican side of the Mexican War. And how about when illegals pack American stadiums to boo our national anthem, and tear apart our flag, and throw onjects at our players???

Oh yeah, and the border in Arizona has been turned into a virtual land-fill with garbage, plastic botles, back-packs and clothing, and human waste litttered all across once pristine land. They assault people, break into homes, and kill their dogs to silence them. Drug wars are waged in this region, Meth labs are set up all along the border. And when BP confronts the Drug Lords, they are shot at by Mexican military on our soil........

But the OP is right.....NO PROBLEMO!!!!!!

Hmm.. you can't put a'price' on Human LIFE!

*out of all this CHAOS, 25 Americans are KILLED EVERYDAY..

..solely BY illegals!

12 by MURDER, 13 by Manslaughter.. [One of MANY sources] This equals to 9,125 plus.. PREVENTABLE deaths per year, EVERY year!

That’s THREE TIMES the casualties of the Iraq war in ONE THIRD the time..


OR..


THREE ‘911’ casualties in ONE year, EVERY year!

www.WND.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103 Remember, these are PREVENTABLE deaths!


*and just a SMALL compilation of those KILLED! : ImmigrationsHumanCost.org www.ImmigrationsHumanCost.org

*and.. www.USillegalAliens.com The ‘Dark Side’ of illegal Migration ..

*Lots of related links! : www.ImmigrationCounters.com/Photos.html

*..from their home page, a MUST read! : www.ImmigrationCounters.com

*and I HIGHLY recommend ALL to READ what these fine folks have researched!! This ONE link takes you to 25 articles and are a MUST READ!! There is a WEALTH of information here and very well written I might add! When you're finished, start calling, faxing and maybe BANGING on the doors of your Senators & Representatives!!
http://www.FamilySecurityMatters.org/ho ... ?id=656096

*Not to mention Chuck Baldwin’s collection.. www.ChuckBaldwinLive.com/immigration.html ..of his HUGE list of compiled articles about illegal migration!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And remember, they're NOT 'immigrants'! Hence, there’s NO such thing as an 'illegal immigrant'!

ACCURATE terminology is: They're either a LEGAL 'immigrant', or an ILLEGAL...:

[size=200]“ALIEN", “MIGRANTâ€

The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration







Illegal alien workers may increase profits for employers, but they are costly to the American taxpayer. Most illegal aliens have low educational attainment, few skills, and they work for low wages, often in the underground economy where they pay no taxes on their earnings. Since about three million illegal aliens gained legal status in the amnesty of 1986, the flow of illegal immigration has increased, and today that population is estimated at 9-11 million illegal alien residents in the country. The former Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that the illegal alien population was increasing by about half a million aliens per year in 2000.

The Huddle Study
Because the number of illegal aliens can only be estimated, similarly the fiscal cost (government budget outlays) for those aliens can only be estimated. Dr. Donald Huddle, a Rice University economics professor, published a systematic analysis of those costs as of 1996 (see table below). The study also estimated the tax payments of those same aliens.

At that time, the illegal alien population was estimated to be about five million persons. The estimated fiscal cost of those illegal aliens to the federal, state and local governments was about $33 billion. This impact was partially offset by an estimated $12.6 billion in taxes paid to the federal, state and local governments, resulting in a net cost to the American taxpayer of about $20 billion every year. This estimate did not include indirect costs that result from unemployment payments to Americans who lost their jobs to illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages. Nor did it include lost tax collections from those American workers who became unemployed. The study estimated those indirect costs from illegal immigration at an additional $4.3 billion annually.

During the years since that estimate, the illegal alien population is estimated to have roughly doubled, so the estimated fiscal costs also will have at least doubled. Furthermore, the passage of time is accompanied by inflation in the costs of services, e.g., school budgets continue to climb. Therefore, what was estimated to be a cost to the American taxpayer of $33 billion in 1996 today would be at least $70 billion. Similarly, tax collections would have increased — sales taxes at least — so that the net expense to the taxpayer from illegal immigration would currently be at least $45 billion. The indirect fiscal costs would have also increased, especially during a period of already high unemployment, to perhaps and additional $10 billion annually.

1996 Costs Table from the Huddle Study 1

Programs
(billions)

Public Education K-12 $5.85

Public Higher Education $0.71

ESL and Bilingual Education $1.22

Food Stamps $0.85

AFDC $0.50

Housing $0.61

Social Security $3.61

Earned Income Tax Credit $0.68

Medicaid $3.12

Medicare A and B $0.58

Criminal Justice and Corrections $0.76

Local Government $5.00

Other Programs $9.25

Total Costs
$32.74

Less Taxes Paid
$12.59

Net Costs of Direct Services
$20.16

Displacement Costs
$4.28

All Net Costs
$24.44





Other More Recent Estimates
Other estimates have been done on components of the cost of illegal immigration. For example, FAIR estimated in 2003 that the cost of K-12 education for illegal alien children was at least $7.4 billion annually (see Breaking the Piggybank). This would be less than double the about $5.9 billion estimate above, but would be of the same order of magnitude. FAIR’s 2004 report on the medical expenses incurred because of illegal immigration (see The Sinking Lifeboat) shows uncompensated costs in excess of one billion dollars.

The cost of incarceration of illegal aliens in state prisons has also risen rapidly. In fiscal year ’02, the Department of Justice’s State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) distributed $550 million to the states to help defray their expenses, but this was estimated to cover only about one fifth of their outlays. Between FY'99 and FY'02, alien detention increased by 45 percent (from about 69,300 inmate years to over 100,300 inmate years), and that trend is continuing. These expenses do not include the costs of illegal aliens incarcerated in federal prisons, public safety expenditures, detention pending trial, expenses of trial proceedings, interpretation, public defenders, or the incarceration expenses of immigrants for minor offenses that do not meet the standards of the SCAPP reimbursement program. Therefore, it is clear that outlays for Criminal Justice and Corrections costs is today much greater than double the 1996 estimate.

While the cost of outlays for illegal aliens may be shifted by legislation among the levels of government and the private sector, the fact remains that illegal immigration creates an enormous fiscal burden on America and its citizens — a burden that Congress has levied upon us through short-sighted and haphazard immigration policy and succeeding administrations have aggravated by spotty enforcement of the law.

A Call for Action
Americans should demand that Congress and the administration work together to establish control over our borders and the interior of the country so that we have the assurance that aliens, whether immigrants or visitors, are legally present in the country. That objective is of vital importance for the sake of national security as well as for the impact on our tax bills.

Foxfire - Below are a couple of the most outspoken academic/researchers on the subject are:

1). Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation (www.heritage.org) and his personal section: http://www.heritage.org/about/staff/Robertrector.cfm.

2). George (Jorge) Borjas of Harvard Univ.
Here's his personal blog: http://borjas.typepad.com/

They both have publicly issued statements and/or summaries of research which has attempted to gauge the overall costs in terms of social services, education, health care per illegal alien and/or legal immigrant as applicable (via different studies). There are several others as well...

If you need quick blurb to use, think about this:

In most states, the cost of educating a K-12 child is approximately 6-10k per year. Since most public elementary/junior high/high schools in the country are funded mostly by local taxes (esp. property taxes), then, assuming an average of 2 kids per household (fertility rates in Mexico have now dropped to about 1.6-1.8 kids per "family" - so we'll use the same but rounded to 2 as 'half-people' don't exist), the cost to local taxpayers is approx. 12-20k/year. Most of that cost is borne by local property tax payers.

Because of the graduated (eg. progressive) application of income taxes, it is unlikely that a worker paying income taxes would pay into the state general funds even the lower end of that range (unless they were very well paid - which, is possible, but not very likely in most cases). So, how much would the working people have to make to pay into and equal that amount every year? Get it?

Second, many IAs are renters - which removes their input from the property tax base altogether. If they rent, they functionally don't contribute anything directly via property tax. So, their contribution via income tax is unlikely to cover the cost of educating the 'typical' family.
Then, consider what happens to the collective tax base should the family being rooted for several years - it's a multiplicative effect as well.

Of course, the 'counterargumenters', will say things like: 'well, yeah - but... they also work for companies and that helps businesses generate profits'. Well, ok, sorta - the problem, is that the benefits of that arrangement remain totally within the private domain of the business, yet, the real larger social costs are born by other taxpayers almost exclusively.

Careful, planned, and beneficial immigration (in limited numbers as needed) is not a bad thing. But, accepting large numbers of unskilled, semi-skilled workers, lacking even a basic education is nothing but a loosing proposition for an advanced first-world economy.

Hope this helps,

Oh, forgot - footnote to the above...

In the illegal immigration debate, those opposed to it usually fall into 1 of 2 'schools of thought' on the subject:

1. Some oppose on fiscal/financial concerns. All well and good by me, and totally justified I believe. (eg. 'immigration costs too much', or, 'unfettered immigration is an unwanted burden on US taxpayers', etc).

2. The other group, tend to oppose the status quo based on cultural / societal concerns. (eg. 'whistling as Rome is burning', or, 'avoiding the cultural dismantling of the late, great, USA'., concern about a common and universal language [English], etc.

It is my personal opinion, that the latter works better in a debate on the subject simply because if one bases their argument on the fiscal rationale, then, it is difficult not to get sucked into the vacuum of 'my experts' vs. 'your experts' situation. In contrast, the cultural effects of mass immigration are plain and apparent for all to see and they can not be refuted. Further, they are easily understood by expert and lay-person alike.

Originally Posted by PhredE

It is my personal opinion, that the latter works better in a debate on the subject simply because if one bases their argument on the fiscal rationale, then, it is difficult not to get sucked into the vacuum of 'my experts' vs. 'your experts' situation. In contrast, the cultural effects of mass immigration are plain and apparent for all to see and they can not be refuted. Further, they are easily understood by expert and lay-person alike.

I agree, but I like to use BOTH approaches.......Sometimes the other side tries to make us look like red-necks with no understanding of complex issues like economics. Our experts are better. Check out Harvard economist George Borjas' work on the subject. He is the most respected name on the subject. Most of the other sides arguments on economics seem to be cheap, inaccurate talking points from the MSM. And oversimplified theory based on big business' hired hands.

Yeah, good point BFR. It's a good thing that both 'prongs' in the argument can be used so interchangeably.

Originally Posted by Foxfire

I'm in a debate about the cost of illegal immigration. There was a list of miscellaneous cost by various origanizations, posted here just a few days. I can't find it now. Does anyone know what thread it was on?

Making room for the illegal invaders may have cost me the chance to reproduce. Does that count as a cost?

[i]The Unacknowledged Holocaust

Back in the 60’s the Federal Government came into the public schools and brainwashed us as little children with the message that the children we were about to have were unwanted because the population was rising so fast. They launched a program called, “Zero Population Growthâ€