Thread: Lou Dobbs sounds off on REAL ID today

Originally Posted by tinybobidaho

And now Lou Dobbs is going to say something about Washington DC and how they are going to go door to door to search for illegal guns. There's freedom for you. But of course, we shouldn't say anything about that, either. Because they'll say it's all for the greater good of the citizens in Washington DC.

ONE PIECE AT A TIME!!!! We better wake up!!!!!!!!!

Sorry everyone, W is right. Back the REAL ID and you back big brother. It will be the prelude to the implant.

Originally Posted by Rockfish

Sorry everyone, W is right. Back the REAL ID and you back big brother. It will be the prelude to the implant.

No, sorry, I don't agree with you.

Actually, I think that it is hypocritical to say that you are against open borders, the illegal invasion, etc.-----but do not support the REAL ID which is a means of solving the problem. NOTHING regarding illegals will ever be solved----unless there is a way of preventing them from using copied/fraudulent documents.

To me, it is kind of like saying that you are against open borders, the illegal invasion, illegals taking the jobs of US citizens, etc.------but are campaigning for Clinton, Obama, McCain, or Paul.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

William wrote:

You are very wrong about the technology I am describing to you.

There's no TAPE. Tape is dead. I said "digital cameras" and "digital networks"

The reason this system is so attractive to the government is that it does not require human operatives to review the tapes. The digital cameras analyze the crowd and the software locks in on your face and automatically measures your face. Your facial measurements are run through a program called an algorithm which turns your facial measurements into a fairly unique number. This number is YOU.

Whether it is tape or digital, the principle is the same as I have previously explained.

And nobody has a right to privacy in a public place. You just cannot be invisible in public.

And a public surveillance system cannot be used to prosecute law-abiding citizens. Nobody can be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of the law.

You have argued that a future tyranny would use such a system to spy on everyday citizens. Well a future tyranny could also develop such a system if one was not already available. If so, then the problem is to stop such a tyranny from gaining power rather than outlawing weapons and surveillance systems that already exist or will be inevitably developed in the natural course of our ongoing technological revolution. What we really need to worry about is public apathy or ignorance that prevents us from being a fully self-governing people, and forums such as this are indeed awakening the people to the really important threats to our nation - border insecurity and illegal immigration.


And finally: If you don't like being digitally photographed in public, then go ahead and protest it, but don't oppose the REAL ID. Americans have a right to know who is a citizen and who is not. And they are demanding their government create a system to identify who is who, and that's why we support REAL ID. And REAL ID is finally going to be the law very soon.

Yep, you are right, it is coming!! They are giving the states a certain deadline to comply. After that time----if they have not complied----the drivers' licenses from those states will NOT be able to be used to enter public buildings, get on planes, etc.

Originally Posted by Dolly3275

Originally Posted by Rockfish

Sorry everyone, W is right. Back the REAL ID and you back big brother. It will be the prelude to the implant.

No, sorry, I don't agree with you.

Actually, I think that it is hypocritical to say that you are against open borders, the illegal invasion, etc.-----but do not support the REAL ID which is a means of solving the problem. NOTHING regarding illegals will ever be solved----unless there is a way of preventing them from using copied/fraudulent documents.

To me, it is kind of like saying that you are against open borders, the illegal invasion, illegals taking the jobs of US citizens, etc.------but are campaigning for Clinton, Obama, McCain, or Paul.

So you would subject the 95% of law abiding innocent Americans to powerful untested and undiscussed surveillance technology to deal with the 5% breaking our laws?

The other problem with your position is that Real ID and biometric technology is NOT NEEDED to deal with illegal immigration.

If they simply verified the I-9 forms in DC like everyone used to think they did, most of the illegals would be sent packing.

The problem with illegal immigration is obvious, it is non enforcement. In states like GA, AZ, and OK, they have not setup Real ID they have simply started to enforce the laws the feds refuse to and mass exoduses are the results.

There is no need to subject Americans to this contentious issue of Real ID and the people pushing Real ID have no intention of stopping illegal immigration.

Name for me one state where the Real ID protocols have stopped illegal aliens? NC is Real ID compliant and this state is notorious for giving illegals Real ID compliant licenses.

TN is Real ID compliant and they used the Driving "permits" for illegals before rescinding it.

Remember NY Governor Spitzer? New York State is on board with Real ID. The Real ID legislation allows for illegal aliens to receive driving permits and Spitzer was going to give the illegal aliens Real ID compliant permits.

It should be clear to all of you by now that the political faction pushing Real ID from the Bush administration has no desire for immigration enforcement.

Those pushing Real ID complaint licenses for illegals are saying "we need to bring these people out of the shadows and know who they are"

Real ID is not designed to stop current illegal aliens from getting licenses and allows for states to give them licenses.

W

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

Originally Posted by Dolly3275

Originally Posted by Rockfish

Sorry everyone, W is right. Back the REAL ID and you back big brother. It will be the prelude to the implant.

No, sorry, I don't agree with you.

Actually, I think that it is hypocritical to say that you are against open borders, the illegal invasion, etc.-----but do not support the REAL ID which is a means of solving the problem. NOTHING regarding illegals will ever be solved----unless there is a way of preventing them from using copied/fraudulent documents.

To me, it is kind of like saying that you are against open borders, the illegal invasion, illegals taking the jobs of US citizens, etc.------but are campaigning for Clinton, Obama, McCain, or Paul.

So you would subject the 95% of law abiding innocent Americans to powerful untested and undiscussed surveillance technology to deal with the 5% breaking our laws?

The other problem with your position is that Real ID and biometric technology is NOT NEEDED to deal with illegal immigration.

If they simply verified the I-9 forms in DC like everyone used to think they did, most of the illegals would be sent packing.

The problem with illegal immigration is obvious, it is non enforcement. In states like GA, AZ, and OK, they have not setup Real ID they have simply started to enforce the laws the feds refuse to and mass exoduses are the results.

There is no need to subject Americans to this contentious issue of Real ID and the people pushing Real ID have no intention of stopping illegal immigration.

Name for me one state where the Real ID protocols have stopped illegal aliens? NC is Real ID compliant and this state is notorious for giving illegals Real ID compliant licenses.

TN is Real ID compliant and they used the Driving "permits" for illegals before rescinding it.

Remember NY Governor Spitzer? New York State is on board with Real ID. The Real ID legislation allows for illegal aliens to receive driving permits and Spitzer was going to give the illegal aliens Real ID compliant permits.

It should be clear to all of you by now that the political faction pushing Real ID from the Bush administration has no desire for immigration enforcement.

Those pushing Real ID complaint licenses for illegals are saying "we need to bring these people out of the shadows and know who they are"

Real ID is not designed to stop current illegal aliens from getting licenses and allows for states to give them licenses.

W

Without the REAL ID..........How is the government/Dept of Homeland Security supposed to prevent illegals/potential terrorists from using the copied/reproduced fraudulent documents to get drivers' licenses, welfare, WIC, foodstamps, visas, etc.???

In regard to Spitzer........The licenses that he was going to provide to the illegals would have been "different" than those provided to US citizens and LEGAL immigrants-----which is why the illegals and illegal support groups were fighting it!!!

Once the REAL ID is fully in effect, none of these states will be able to skate around compliance protocols!!!

You're absolutely right, W. All they need to do is enforce the laws and use E-verify and get the IRS to confirm SS numbers. And they've got to get over this bunk that cops can't ask a person if he's here legally or not. And as far as the border, it could be secured tomorrow, just like the producer of BORDERS said on Lou Dobbs today. This crap that the Ameican citizens have got to be tagged is all part of the "control" plan. People can argue with me all day and I still will not voluntarily give this sneaky government one damn thing of mine that I don't have to. I'm selfish that way. And everyone else better start getting a little more selfish or pretty soon, they'll look around and say, "hey, where did all my civil liberties go?" By then it's too late.

I'll admit that I am one that is sitting on fence with respect to Real ID - and probably still am. However, at the same time, I'm seeing both sides argued very well here and that helps me understand the argument(s) from both sides. W and Jonathan, et. al. are making good points about the issue.

Question: Is it really true that the only explicit mandate for states to achieve compliance with Fed. Real ID standards is to have a 'machine readable' license? If so, that mechanism might - or might not - be able to contain/or embed biometric information. Well, I have a decent enough understanding of the technology involved to know that yes, indeed, technically speaking, the ability to do so is readily available for the most part. The question really, is: to do it, or not do to it, and what to store? and the real whopper to that is - what will be made known to the public???

Another tertiary point I'd like to bring to everyone's attention is that only a handful of states that have questioned or refused to comply with Real ID have done so on the basis of privacy concerns. The majority of those resisting the policy raise the "it's an unfunded mandate" argument - so prevalent in government. ...FYI, not taking a side, just offering a reminder....

Originally Posted by PhredE

I'll admit that I am one that is sitting on fence with respect to Real ID - and probably still am. However, at the same time, I'm seeing both sides argued very well here and that helps me understand the argument(s) from both sides. W and Jonathan, et. al. are making good points about the issue.

Question: Is it really true that the only explicit mandate for states to achieve compliance with Fed. Real ID standards is to have a 'machine readable' license? If so, that mechanism might - or might not - be able to contain/or embed biometric information. Well, I have a decent enough understanding of the technology involved to know that yes, indeed, technically speaking, the ability to do so is readily available for the most part. The question really, is: to do it, or not do to it, and what to store? and the real whopper to that is - what will be made known to the public???

Another tertiary point I'd like to bring to everyone's attention is that only a handful of states that have questioned or refused to comply with Real ID have done so on the basis of privacy concerns. The majority of those resisting the policy raise the "it's an unfunded mandate" argument - so prevalent in government. ...FYI, not taking a side, just offering a reminder....

Yes, you are right.........The states who are fighting it are doing so due to the costs/expense of moving toward compliance.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

William wrote:

You are very wrong about the technology I am describing to you.

There's no TAPE. Tape is dead. I said "digital cameras" and "digital networks"

The reason this system is so attractive to the government is that it does not require human operatives to review the tapes. The digital cameras analyze the crowd and the software locks in on your face and automatically measures your face. Your facial measurements are run through a program called an algorithm which turns your facial measurements into a fairly unique number. This number is YOU.

Whether it is tape or digital, the principle is the same as I have previously explained.

You made the point that the government did not have enough people to monitor such a system, I simply pointed out to you that the system that is under construction does not require a great deal of human labor.

And nobody has a right to privacy in a public place. You just cannot be invisible in public.

I believe I do have a right to know when my identity and whereabouts are being questioned by my government. Where were you on the night of... is usually the first question in a police interrogation. Every prior generation of Americans found the idea of being watched and tracked by a central government offensive and I share that feeling with the vast majority of Americans in our nations history. There is a difference between being in public and being constantly watched and tracked by machines designed to give a government more power over a populace.

And a public surveillance system cannot be used to prosecute law-abiding citizens. Nobody can be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of the law.

So all of those past concerns in America about being stopped for your papers, having your phone lines tapped, or the government going through your mail as they do now were just silliness? How much liberty can their be under such a system when the only examples in life we have of people that are watched and tracked constantly are prisoners, people in asylums, and animals in zoos?

You have argued that a future tyranny would use such a system to spy on everyday citizens.

No, I have pointed out that the system currently being implemented is already spying on everyday citzens.

Well a future tyranny could also develop such a system if one was not already available. If so, then the problem is to stop such a tyranny from gaining power rather than outlawing weapons and surveillance systems that already exist or will be inevitably developed in the natural course of our ongoing technological revolution.

The problem with your theory is that any existing tyrannical power that possessed this technology over a populace would have little trouble identifying and nullifying any dissent. The Chinese government is racing to install this technology on their streets. They love the idea.

What we really need to worry about is public apathy or ignorance that prevents us from being a fully self-governing people, and forums such as this are indeed awakening the people to the really important threats to our nation - border insecurity and illegal immigration.

If you mean that, then surely you would support my opinion that this technology should be halted until the details of the system are fully disclosed to the public. Those implementing this system do not want that public dialog as they have displayed their desire for secrecy on numerous occassions.

The revelation that the system was used on the people attending the 1999 superbowl came about because of a leak to a Florida newspaper.

When it was later discovered that a town near Miami would be the first to setup the system on their sidewalks, journalists and bloggers started calling city council members to ask why they decided to be the first town in America to put this big brother system on their streets. The city council members where shocked and unaware that they had authorized anything of that nature. After inquiring, the council members discovered that someone had hidden this new measure deep in the law enforcement component of the city budget. They immediately met and voted to strip funding for the project out of the budget.

Shortly after that, when Congress found out about TIA (Total Information Awareness) they pulled the plug on funding. The spooky logo and the fact that the DARPA TIA project was headed up by defamed and multiple felon Rear Admiral John Poindexter was a death blow to TIA.

Take a good hard look at Real ID's 'Oppenheimer' before you sign on hook line and sinker

Rear Admiral John Poindexter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Poindexter

"Poindexter was convicted on multiple felony counts on April 7, 1990 for conspiracy, obstruction of justice, perjury, defrauding the government, and the alteration and destruction of evidence pertaining to the Iran-Contra Affair."

The current administration of the United States opened our borders behind the backs of the US citizenry and ceased all significant immigration enforcement in violation of the the US Constitution and many oaths of office. All the while they have rapidly given themselves more power and surveillance over American citizens than anytime in US history.

And finally: If you don't like being digitally photographed in public, then go ahead and protest it, but don't oppose the REAL ID. Americans have a right to know who is a citizen and who is not. And they are demanding their government create a system to identify who is who, and that's why we support REAL ID. And REAL ID is finally going to be the law very soon.

My government knows who is a citizen or not.

The solution to the problem is not me and everyone else giving them more power and money to snoop on me and future generations.

The solution is for them to do their damn jobs or be fired.

We can clearly see that 1. Real ID is not intended to stop illegal immigration. 2. There is no proof real ID will stop terrorists. 3. Those pushing Real ID are also those in power that have opened US borders, facilitated illegal immigration, and advocate an electronic security perimeter instead of border protections that would slow the movement of "people goods and services" across our borders.

If our movement fails, those of you that support Real ID are going to find yourselves immersed in a sea of illegal aliens that got amnestied via "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" and they will all be carrying their big brother ID's alongside you.

I'm sure big business, the McLintObama's of the world and their new army of 20 million new La Raza voters will come up with many new laws designed to address the bigotry and hatred you proffered in defense of America.

Just imagine the new uses for this technology in the North American Community.

The American citizenry is being subjugated. We are in mortal danger. Our freedoms and liberties are faltering and the principles that MADE THIS A GREAT NATION are being thrown aside by greedy corporations of which many are under foreign control.

You cannot save America by abandoning those principles, you must restore those principles and privacy and civil liberties are a big part of that.

What is most lacking in the the arguments of those that support Real ID is an appreciation for the power relationship between the different parts of our government and between the US Government and American citizens.

You cant just hand all this power to the government and hope they do the right thing and you certainly should not hand all that additional power to government when the same government is failing you on an unprecedented scale!

W