Thread: Why we Have Problems With Immigration-Risk Versus Reward

It is all about risk versus reward. There are two types of illegal border crossers who come across our borders. 1. Those looking for work. 2. Those who are in a criminal enterprise such as drug smuggling or human smuggling.

The way I see it we have a huge problem because we have a poorly designed enforcement program and a poorly designed penalty system.

I will give you a real life example. There is an illegal alien serving two years in Arizona prison who is from El Salvador. He is there because he finally got caught after three years smuggling people into Arizona.

He is getting ready to be released and knows he will be deported to El Salvador. When asked what he intends to do once he gets to El Salvador, he replied, he will go back to smuggling people into Arizona. Asked why? He stated because until he was caught he was making $5,000 per week smuggling people into Arizona.

It is worth the risk to him to do a few years in prison to earn 5K per week. He has determined the risk versus reward is worth a few years of his freedom. 5K per week goes a long ways in a country such as El Salvador.

Now, let’s look at the other type of illegal alien group. The group who comes here for work. What is their risk versus reward? Well, the reward is to be able to secure a job that pays substantially more then what they could earn in their home country assuming they could even find a job in their home country.

The US dollars they would earn in America will go a long ways in improving the quality of life in their home country for the family they left behind. There is the reward scenario for them. Now, what are the risk scenarios once they reached the US?

Risk scenario would be that if they are apprehended being illegally in the US they will be arrested and detained, and ultimately deported to their home country. Very minimal incarceration time and very little loss of freedom.

So what is the deterrent affect? Answer: None

What is the enforcement affect? Answer: None

What is the reward affect? Answer: Very High

Only two ways to reduce this illegal alien problem.

1. Have a very strong employer enforcement program that makes it extremely undesirable for employers to want to hire illegal aliens to perform work for them by making the risk versus reward for them extremely unfavorable.

2. To make it very undesirable for illegal aliens to want to cross the border illegally by making the first offense a significant criminal offense requiring mandatory prison sentencing terms of 5 years with no early release possible. Second offense 20 years.

You have to get the attention of the illegal aliens by putting forth the message on a risk versus reward the reward is very small compared to the risk of prison time of caught.

You have to be willing to make examples of some by having a strong enforcement program and having ongoing media campaigns going in the various major news organizations from the various countries.

Coming into the US needs to be a criminal offense and not an administrative offense. Catch and release programs need to be terminated and in its place real enforcement with real penalties. Sure the first year expenses to incorporate a strong enforcement program will be high but the long term will actually decrease as the message will be received that risk versus reward it is just not worth it to come into the US illegally.

Smugglers such as human and drug would get a life sentence with no chance of parole. They would see the risk versus reward for their personal freedom change on the scale they currently see and most in my opinion will not opt to continue in this criminal enterprise.

We went wrong in our immigration policies when we enacted laws at the beginning making it a non-criminal offense to come into the US illegally. We therefore made it a non-deterrent law. We then watered it down substantially by running enforcement program of catch and release without having any consequences to the violator thus only encouraging them to make repeated attempts to come into the country in search of a better financial life.

How many times have we read stories where a person was documented to have been deported 5 or more times? The federal government continued to treat it as an administrative offense instead of a criminal offense as called for under federal immigration laws. We reaped what we sowed.

It is absolutely the federal governments fault for allowing this to get so out of control and they actually contributed to this huge problem by their lack of enforcement and allowing politics to have influence over enforcement of our immigration laws.

Now it is their responsibility to fix the problem and the only way they can actually do it is to take the hard road now and go to enforcement of our laws and stand firmly against the political fall out that will come with it both inside the US and abroad.

States like Arizona would have never had to get to the point of enacting laws such as SB1070 had the federal government owned up to their responsibility from the beginning of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Illegal aliens who have been in this country for a long time would not now have to be making decisions to leave had the federal government been enforcing the laws aggressively and to the exact extent as called for under the Act.

We all agree we know why illegal aliens come to the United States. It is because of economic advantage they find here that they do not find in their home countries. The come here because they know we have weak enforcement of our immigration laws and that risk versus reward they have been on the winning side.

The final problem and solution is that for way to long the federal government has been allowed to operate their immigration enforcement program with a huge blanket of secrecy and discretion not known to the general public accept under certain circumstances where they feel it is to their advantage to release certain public disclosures of certain incidents and arrest. They have been able to avoid accountability to the citizens of the United States by not allowing citizens access to arrests and dispositions of cases so that citizens are not able to monitor when a person is on his or her third deportation under administrative conditions instead of criminal disposition as the actual federal law calls for.

Many states including Arizona have broad public access and disclosure laws that allow their citizens to be more aware if they choose by granting them legal access to most files without requiring a freedom of information request. We in Arizona have great access to many court records so we are able to see dispositions of many cases and determine if we find it acceptable or if we feel an injustice to the citizens have occurred, to be able to bring it to the attention of the citizens.

ICE and Border Patrol acting under authority from the Department of Homeland Security restrict access by various communication mediums such as Internet from US Citizens from being able to monitor arrest made and disposition of the cases so citizens can determine if they are following the law and the mandates set by congress via the people.

When I hear of various cases where an illegal alien has been deported numerous times it is always as a result of some criminal incident that occurred such as the illegal alien who was arrested in Edmonton Washington for rape of a US Citizen and it was disclosed that this illegal alien had been deported 9 previous times.

To me and many other citizens that is unacceptable and gives us a glimpse into the broken enforcement system and tells us that repeated catch and release deportation is the normal operating procedure by ICE. Our federal laws makes re-entry a criminal offense and a third re-entry makes it a felony offense but the reality shows us that that is not how our federal government has been handling it and they have operated with the upmost secrecy keeping most Americans dumbed down on this.

We need complete enforcement of our immigration laws with no exceptions and we need complete transparency by the agencies charged with carrying out our immigration laws and we need accountability by those placed into roles of leadership. We need to open up more access to records of arrest and disposition where citizens can see that their tax dollars are being spent effectively and that our immigration laws are being enforced to the maximum called for under the Act.

We need to completely remove politics from this and insist that our laws be followed or face consequences of removal from that position of responsibility. I believe we need to remove the appointment of secretary position and replace it with instead a hired director position that is accountable to congress as their boss and not to the President.

In other words a President nominates for the position but once confirmed by the congress only the congress can fire the person and not the President. That removes the political aspects out of it and makes it similar to the process we have for the US Supreme Court Justices where it is an appointment for life or until that person resigns or is removed by an act of congress.

If you are an American citizen in order to get a job you have to have graduated from high school or have a GED. They check your credit. r How may illegas do you think have graduated high school and have a good credit rating in the states? So if you want a job, say your illegal and you don't have to worry about it. Oh, and learn a little Spanish.

Their goal--and that of their liberal advocates--- is to displace traditional Americans: whites, Christians, small business people.

Originally Posted by agrneydgrl

If you are an American citizen in order to get a job you have to have graduated from high school or have a GED. They check your credit. r How may illegas do you think have graduated high school and have a good credit rating in the states? So if you want a job, say your illegal and you don't have to worry about it. Oh, and learn a little Spanish.

That is not accurate. As a US Citizen there are not legal requirements you have to have a high school diploma or GED to get a job. That is up to the private business and their particular criteria. If you seek Federal employment most will have a requirement to have one or the other educational documents.

Originally Posted by Captainron

Their goal--and that of their liberal advocates--- is to displace traditional Americans: whites, Christians, small business people.

In my opinion its has always been about big business interest in cheap labor to maximize their profit margins. Big business will look for the cheap labor here or they will out source it somewhere else like India or China where labor is plentyful or they will get it from illegal aliens.

Big business participate in lobbiest groups that represent their industry and donate huge dollars to political candiates who they believe will best serve their interest-the profit margin and bottom line.

Any business would like to enjoy long periods of cheap labor to drive up their profit margins and allow them more competitiveness in the markey place. The problem with that is without controls it hurts our economy in the long term because it supresses market wages in the unskilled labor market and keeps it at or below poverty income levels.

The cheap labor drives up our welfare cost when they have to use additional sources such as food stamps ect; just to live a basic lifestyle that the big businesses should have been paying for and not the tax payers. Instead they made higher profits on illegal workers and we the taxpayers funded the difference to the worker in welfare programs.

One of the arguements we hear all the time from the politicians is the cost would be huge to enforce our policies. I would counter that with logical arguements of the cost is huge if we don't and the cost is already huge to tax payers for all the other programs we pay for to foreign countries in what they like to term as humanitarian aid. How about we rescind our aid to the country of Morroco where we have committed to give them almost 700 million dollars...yes...700 million dollars of tax payer money in aid that is free to them over the next 5 years. That was our promise to them afterall.

Now, under this example just what would the same amount of money do for us in the US as far as it relates to this issue? How many more miles of border fencing could we put up? How many more border agents could we hire? How many more detention beds could we build? How many more immigration judges could we hire? How many more prosecutors could we hire? What financial impact would it have in helping our internal economy?

Why does President Obama not want to secure the border? What is his agenda? Afterall, Napolitano works for him and takes her orders directly from him. If he wanted tougher enforcement all he has to do is direct it so and she would carry it out and direct the various agencies to do so.

Obama wants immigration reform which we all know to mean amnesty of the 20 million illegal aliens that are here which would increase to 30 million with the fast tracking of their families into the US.

Why? What does he gain out of all this? What do the others gain out of it? Who in congress gains out of this plan? Is it a means for Obama to grab more voters and for the deomcrats to grab more seats in both houses thus locking in his power to office this term and next? What is his goal beyond the next 6 years?

We all know what happened the last time amnesty was granted. We saw a huge surge if illegals entering our country under the belief that if they hung out long enough they too would find themselves enjoying an amnesty program.

We allow it again and we can certainly expect the next wave to be much larger and the political structure shifted to a Hispanic dominated structure that would be more focused on the Hispanic way of life then the American way of life.

We must send a strong message this year and vote out the politicians who intend to sell Americans out for their own personal gain and vote in politicians who's allegiance is to the constitution and to America first and foremost.

We must pull all foreign aid immediately and support our strategic allies. We must regain the American culture and belief system and stop allowing so many foreigners in to our country who intent is to establish their own belief system that is detrimental to the American culture and way of life.

The Muslims in Morroco have expelled over 50 Christian US citizens in the last 3 months from their country because they were giving litature to muslims. They had no due process of law and no deportation hearings. Not even time to collect personal items. The Morrocan government (Muslin) are getting 700 million from us over the next 5 years in aid.

Now we are going to allow the Muslin Mosque be built in New York City on ground zero over looking the graves of the thousands of US citizens who died from the Muslin attack on our world trade center. We said we will never forget but it appears many politicians have.

Our country has lowered itself to the lowest moral levels ever over greed for money and the politicians have traded their souls for votes.

Please get out and vote this year and help somebody vote that never has. It is critical for the survival of our country.

Illegal aliens are acting out with more violence for one reason – they are immature “taken care ofâ€

This sort of effort is actually counterproductive. Making it a criminal offense broadens the defense options and would make removal more difficult. What we need is a move towards summary removal.

I LOVE YOU PatriotAZGuy!

I love you too GR & Richard. This is the kind of exchange I can learn from. I like summary removal because I am weary of spending all these resources on people who will be back within days of "catch and release." But I think summary removal to a prison camp working on building the border fence for the times specified by the OP. Summary removal is good because lots of what the illegal aliens do, like the "dance of the languages" is expressly for the purpose of wasting our time and money and resources. It needs to stop.

Yes it is true that the hiring criteria is unfairly relaxed for minorities. There have been proposals to pay them more than citizen workers or white workers, proposals to give them more votes and just prior to Memorial Day weekend Obummer insisted to Congress that states must be blocked from giving jobs to citizens instead of illegal aliens (I know thanks to Airborne Sapper.) If you are functioning on a stolen identity/Social Security number your employer can claim that they thought you had the education of the original identity holder. These all need to stop too.

The members of my family who have gotten ahead due to skin color or ethnic identity are horribly offensive in their haughty attitudes and condemnation of family who have not had as much success as them. This crap does not just divide the nation, it divides families too. It needs to stop.

What is "summary removal"? Please let me know, and thank you.

Oh, when humans are rewarded FIRST because of their skin color, and then never because of their individual achievements and work ethics, the prize of rewards is misdirected to people who not only appreciate them and don't deserve the, but their laza butts stand as an example to children that their color (with a hostile at-ti-tude to back up their color of skin) is more important than all other things.

WRONG!

For the record, if Jesus is black, He will NEVER be racist towards whites -like many black racists imply. Quite the contrary, Jesus meets people INDIVIDUALLY and judges them INDIVIDUALLY on their INDIVIDUAL sins.

Just saying!

I still want to know who in high places are being paid off, who is doing the paying off, and why aren't the FBT, CIA, special forces, and other such departments doing their own stealth investigations?

They would be against American citizens if there was an equally deadly & lawless involvement against the USA as their is with illegal aliens, because we already know that illegal aliens are not the nice holy people who go to work and nothing else.

Hence, mass demonstrations that turn into riots on USA streets are not done by the nice illegal alien next door. Quite the contrary, which is why the crime rate in America has skyrocketed specifically beginning at the time when illegal aliens began to invade America - with California as their first stronghold.

Hence, California is broke and illegal aliens broke the state - plain and simple - remove them, or get them out somehow, or by attrition and California would have no long term financila problems.

Again, the following has to be repeated over and over until it sinks into all American's heads (thank God they're awake about this now, though), including the 2nd class main stream media.

The entire existence of illegal aliens starts with their LIE, and after they enter ILLEGALLY into USA borders their entire lawless lifestyle is supported (aided and abetted, if you will) as many LIES as it takes to fend off everyone - from all who complains about the presence everywhere of illegal aliens to those who are talking directly to illegal aliens who LIE about who they are because their primary goal is to blend in as if they are legal Americans.

Which is a reality that is farthest from the truth - more LIES.

Americans and most judges have to start thinking away from the normal replies to illegal aliens, and quit expecting more than the same old well worn replies from illegal aliens.

Such as, about a couple years ago a judge was faced with several illegal aliens, who had been arrested as a result of one of the ICE company raids.

When the illegal aliens wound up in his court room, the judge was so unique in his reply, but it should have been a reply that has been well worn by time over the years.

The judge told the illegal aliens that he could not do anything for them that wasn't already within their ability to do for themselves. He told them that they had optioins, go back to their homeland, or if they REALLY wanted to be a part of America, then they could take steps to become legal American citizens.

Enough said. That's the whole thing right there.

Incidentally, about the law suits illegal aliens lodge inside the USA - they are meant to gain more of America's dollars so they can send them back home to - once again - support their beloved homelands - such as Mexico, and there are others in a primary position of sending their illegal aliens into America.