Thread: Microsoft's Gates warns US industry at risk

Thank you for saying that: I was clueless about H-1bs and L-1s until after I was laid off in 01. Then in (I think) early '02 a guy named Pete Benet came onto the HotJobs boards (we'd already been invaded by trolls trying to make us feel bad) calling attention to the way THEY were still getting hired by the planeload while we were still being let go. That led to hooking up with people on other boards, and the rest is history.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

Thank you for saying that: I was clueless about H-1bs and L-1s until after I was laid off in 01. Then in (I think) early '02 a guy named Pete Benet came onto the HotJobs boards (we'd already been invaded by trolls trying to make us feel bad) calling attention to the way THEY were still getting hired by the planeload while we were still being let go. That led to hooking up with people on other boards, and the rest is history.

BETSY
I'm so glad you bring your experiences and expertise to this issue!

It's extremely valuable in helping those of us without this knowledge get up to speed.

That's cool. I hope things have turned out ok for you.
I think the more people learn of how the H1Bs,L1s,etc are used (well, abused) the more they the distrust their use at all.

It took me 10 months to find another middle class job with benefits, making less of course. Only this year have I attained my former salary. I was in grad school at the time, and my classes filled up with foreign students working here. They were programmers, DBAs, project managers, and --- average students. I don't recall a single genius or skillset America didn't already have among the laid-off people I knew, many of whom were in the same classroom, thinking that a degree would help them get back to work (across the table from their replacements!).

and my classes filled up with foreign students working here.

They're filling up American Seats in just about every school in just about every major.

OK, I'll do one more post and then let you get on to more important stuff...

Betsy: Wow, I've had sort of a mini-version of what you experienced myself. It's all about short-sightedness and singular focus on the $$$ - quality is always a distant second. (While I'm not a degreed CS person, I have done much programming and I don't [well, won't] use M$ tools at all! - yuck!)
(OK, now get back to work before the boss catches you....!)


2ndsis: And what bugs me about that is that actual tuition charges almost never cover that full 'true' cost of educating someone in our system.
Most people here quickly forget that tuition doesn't even come close to covering the entire pot of money needed to put a warm body through our university system. Supplements in terms of Federal $, research/grants, etc. are an important part of shoring up university finances.

Mr. Gates,

You should be more concerned about what needs to be done to produce more talent from our young students here in America instead of looking elsewhere.

If American schools are not producing the talented future inventors and scientists they once did, then let's address that problem and not circumvent it by transplanting people in from around the globe.

W

I think Bill should come down out of his manison, he needs to take alittle stroll through Los Angeles with Arnold, walk through the malls, schools, colleges, and neighborhoods, and see what has happen to the them, they are a third world cess pool, he and OBL are causing in our country. You can not tell the difference between Cal. and Mexico.

GEE WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPEN TO EDUCATION IN THIS GREAT COUNTRY???

OH BUT PROTECT THAT DREAM ACT, WHO CARES IF ALOT OF MIDDLE OR LOWER INCOME CANNOT AFFORD TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN AT ALL, BUT OH!! MAKE US PAY FOR ILLEGALS THAT SHOULDN'T BE HERE!!

I totally agree with the last Poster (ALIPAC). We can't let our emotions on this issue blind us to the fact that our education system is not producing all the technical type people we need. I don't claim to have the answer, but I do know that if we don't have enough graduates for these kinds of jobs we are going to have to import them. And while some of these more educated immigrants end up being solid American citizens you inevitably have the problem of divided loyalties. Especially with Chinese high tech workers who end up being corporate type spies for the PRC, etc.

My feeling is that we are producing plenty of talent for our needs, but that our talent is being subtly and not so subtly discounted. Much is made, for example, that we are producing fewer engineers than India and China. Well, we are close to 300 million and they are somewhere over a billion, so what's wrong with that? The question is, are we producing the right quantity and quality for our needs? The reason why their number is important vs our number is one thing: international labor arbitrage. Were it not for that, their numbers vs. ours would not be a talking point. So what if they have a gazillion freshly graduated engineers and computer scientists? So long as they live happily forever after in their own countries, and we aren't shipping our work (=work that pertains to our society and internal industries) over there, it wouldn't harm us a bit. But when US hiring managers can be persuaded that Americans are no good in math, science, and logic, and that an American diploma is not worth the paper it's printed on so long as an American holds it, then our grads will be passed over, as I believe they increasingly are. And the drumbeat for 'superior' foreign students and workers will grow louder. As for non-American hiring managers, the education system in Asia is based on very different premises, so that our smart kids seem uneducated and undisciplined to them. Their system is based on the rote memorization and regurgitation of vast amounts of data, plus the ability and willingness to follow rigid rules. That educational philosophy dates from extremely ancient times. Ours does not. The use of the word 'competitive' is apt here in more ways than one.