Thread: Economic Ignorance in Recent H-1b Decision

Economic Ignorance in Recent H-1b Decision
[Randall Burns] @ 12:23 am

Theodp writes on Slashdot:

“Judge Faith Hochberg has denied a preliminary injunction sought by the Programmers Guild to put a hold on a controversial ‘emergency’ rule change by the Department of Homeland Security to permit foreign students to work continuously in the US for two-and-a-half years after graduation without an H-1B visa.

Faith S. Hochberg isn’t a stranger to controversy. Her husband was questioned in a matter of insurance fraud when her confirmation to the district court was pending.

When I was an undergraduate, Maynard Krueger once told me in a private conversation that he felt accounting courses should be required of all law school graduates–since so many of the errors committed by attorneys related to accounting problems. Decisions like this recently one make me think that economics courses should be required of all federal judges ruling on major policy decisions.

This decision shows that specific discrimination against unpopular groups of citizens is alive and well in the United States judiciary. What I think is hopeful here is that the Programmers Guild is forcing Federal Judges to go on the record here. Any actions that show these folks up in any way is probably helpful. I also think it is hopeful that this story made it into Slashdot.org. There are still some ideologues in the technical community who support open borders in the US–but their ranks appear to be shrinking as the real effects of H-1b expansion become more apparent.
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2008/08/ ... -decision/

Originally Posted by zeezil

Economic Ignorance in Recent H-1b Decision
[Randall Burns] @ 12:23 am

Theodp writes on Slashdot:

“Judge Faith Hochberg has denied a preliminary injunction sought by the Programmers Guild to put a hold on a controversial ‘emergency’ rule change by the Department of Homeland Security to permit foreign students to work continuously in the US for two-and-a-half years after graduation without an H-1B visa.

Faith S. Hochberg isn’t a stranger to controversy. Her husband was questioned in a matter of insurance fraud when her confirmation to the district court was pending.

When I was an undergraduate, Maynard Krueger once told me in a private conversation that he felt accounting courses should be required of all law school graduates–since so many of the errors committed by attorneys related to accounting problems. Decisions like this recently one make me think that economics courses should be required of all federal judges ruling on major policy decisions.

This decision shows that specific discrimination against unpopular groups of citizens is alive and well in the United States judiciary. What I think is hopeful here is that the Programmers Guild is forcing Federal Judges to go on the record here. Any actions that show these folks up in any way is probably helpful. I also think it is hopeful that this story made it into Slashdot.org. There are still some ideologues in the technical community who support open borders in the US–but their ranks appear to be shrinking as the real effects of H-1b expansion become more apparent.
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2008/08/ ... -decision/

Your average working American has not, until recently, been able to understand the H1-B controversy because of the way in which pro-offshoring and H1-B zealots hide their propaganda in a bunch of techno-jargon. Most Americans asked the following type of question would probably shake their heads sadly and admit that H1-B's from Indian make better employees:

"Do you believe we should look overseas for experts in JSP, MFC, C++, Oracle Server 10 (sorry, version 9 doesn't count), Linux SUSE version 10, C# and the .NET framework version 3 (if its version 2 your resume goes in the garbage) when we can't find those skills in the US?"

This is exactly how H1-B "head shops" in the US use smoke and mirrors to explain why American citizens can't "qualify" for jobs - and then they "lower the bar" for cheap H1-B labor.

Thanks again George Bush!

"Do you believe we should look overseas for experts in JSP, MFC, C++, Oracle Server 10 (sorry, version 9 doesn't count), Linux SUSE version 10, C# and the .NET framework version 3 (if its version 2 your resume goes in the garbage) when we can't find those skills in the US?"

So, basically, people are 'locked' to their skillset for a given point of time and never progress, learn new things (or forget things, too), etc.(?)
If that were the case, why don't we just issue a blanket standard warning to all new IT graduates *Warning - your employability is good through [date du jour, or version X of tool Y]. After that time, start considering going back to school or doing another gig".

The reality, of course, is not that way. People *do* learn new things, and not all of the new things to be learned are always useful or key to a project. There have been many fly-by-night' new gadget du jour things that come and go and barely make an impact. Having a good solid core set of skills that is common and in general use is far more important that having one recent version of one tool at a single point in time. Anyone that tells you otherwise is basically lying to you.

Plus, and this is a basic point I reiterate ad nauseum, is a lot of this problem has it's roots not in 'global competition', 'the marketplace', but in basic demographics: India population: 1.1 billion, US population 305 million.
Does it stand to reason that India produces 3 or 4 times the number of IT / engineers than does the US? Well duh!

Also, the debate sidesteps the issue that largely due to big business incessant pleading for every cheaper and 'easier' labor, that many Americans have simply said, in effect, "No thanks. I'm done with that". Either the working conditions or low pay levels have driven a lot of the domestic workers out of the industry. Now, contrary to what the H-1b proponents chide "well, you just can't handle it", "you're not smart enough", etc. (yawn) - when an employer has trouble attracting workers into a field, the workers are trying to tell you something... but were the employers listening?, heck no. So, business has made this filthy and uncomfortable bed that now they must lie in. And, if it's tough going and you don't get everything you want... too bad. You can deal with difficulties just as your American workers have had to.

Originally Posted by PhredE

If that were the case, why don't we just issue a blanket standard warning to all new IT graduates *Warning - your employability is good through [date du jour, or version X of tool Y]. After that time, start considering going back to school or doing another gig".

The reality, of course, is not that way. People *do* learn new things, and not all of the new things to be learned are always useful or key to a project.

And the way the H1-B industry handles the above issue is the real tragedy. They will bear down hard on an American citizen regarding the supposed lack of skills and then change the rules for workers from India. It is well known in the H1-B industry that an American will automatically be disqualified for a job position using the above "techno-babble" and then an Indian will be ushered in to the same job without the same scrutiny, as long as he knows "some" of the required skills. This is because American companies value cheapness over skill set. It has gotten so bad that Bill Gates has been able to fool members of Congress into thinking "Americans can't be found to do those jobs so we have to go overseas". Nothing true about that! Bill Gates is a greedy SOB who cares only about the amount of "skimming" he can do off of the pay checks of his workers.

Ford Motors also leads the pack in H1-B fraud. When I was working there in 1998 as a computer consultant I asked my job-shop representative to let me sign up at Ford for advanced skills training. I was told that I was not allowed to get training under Ford's rules. I found out later that Ford Motor's asked their H1-B's to sign up for classes at the same time I was there. A Ford company president also admitted that he had instituted rules meant to replace American citizens with H1-B's, and one of the ways used to speed up the replacement process was to prevent American citizens from getting training while allowing it for H1-B's from India.

The system is corrupt, it stinks and it is putting more millions in Bill Gates pockets while it throws Americans out of work. But I am not surprised; when I see the number of politicians who are in bed with racist groups like "La Raza" telling us that cop killers and child rapists from Mexico are "doing the jobs Americans won't do" I understand too well that they want to see Americans out of work as well.

Originally Posted by PhredE

The reality, of course, is not that way. People *do* learn new things, and not all of the new things to be learned are always useful or key to a project. There have been many fly-by-night' new gadget du jour things that come and go and barely make an impact. Having a good solid core set of skills that is common and in general use is far more important that having one recent version of one tool at a single point in time. Anyone that tells you otherwise is basically lying to you.

Having a good set of skills is very important to business the way it used to be done in the US.

Originally Posted by millere

Originally Posted by PhredE

The reality, of course, is not that way. People *do* learn new things, and not all of the new things to be learned are always useful or key to a project. There have been many fly-by-night' new gadget du jour things that come and go and barely make an impact. Having a good solid core set of skills that is common and in general use is far more important that having one recent version of one tool at a single point in time. Anyone that tells you otherwise is basically lying to you.

Having a good set of skills is very important to business the way it used to be done in the US.

Yep, correction noted and appreciated.

In the heyday of America's tech leadership, companies here still trained and developed their American workforces. I am old enough to remember this. My grandfather was one of the first IBM techies, before it was IBM, my mother was a programmer, and I'm a support manager. I remember how it was when our nation's leadership was at its peak. No shortage of workers - we found people with talent and developed them. And when things changed, we developed them some more.

Now they just hand out pink slips to the old employees and call the bodyshop for new employees who happen to have the right buzzwords and acronyms on their resumes. How they got there is another question. There are lots of eyewitness testimonies as to the actual skill levels once the foreign workers arrived onsite.

Hi Betsy, I knew you would appear sometime this morning

Yes, many have become 'disposable workers'. Too bad we can't implement a new policy of 'disposable CEOs and owners'.

I'm thinking that the ultimate answer is for Americans to bid goodbye to the big companies that have decided to go global and develop their own businesses in the shadows, and grow new success stories to take the place of the departed dinosaurs. Rather like the little tree shrews back in the day ....