Thread: ENOUGH ALREADY.

ENOUGH ALREADY.

Those people, who support the war, is really supporting the death of nearly 4,000 young Americans. That is a despicable, disgraceful travesty. Those that is against the war is supporting the troops because they do not want anymore young lives lost for a lie and a lost cause. A cause that was lost from the beginning. Iraq did not attack us on 9-11, did not have WMDs and was not a threat to us and never would have been. We were watching Saddam every move.
War in Iraq is not ours to win and never was. It is up to the Sunni, Kurds and Shiites to settle this war which is not political but religious. These people has been fighting for thousands of years and they will continue to do so after we are long gone.
Saddam kept that country together because he was a ruthless dictator and only another ruthless dictator will end this mess.
These people will never accept democracy because it goes against all their religious belief and their way of life. By trying to change that, we are wasting lives, our and theirs, trillions of dollars that we need to fight health care, poverty and crime here. And to secure our borders, ports and air space. And we are wasting time.
People who concocted this war knows nothing about war or the people of the Middle East. As long as we are in the Middle East our troops will be dying and this is not acceptable.
Our presence on Muslim land is causing this problem. It is their religious responsibility to kill infidels (us) that invade their country and occupy their land. They will never stop as long as we are there. They tell us that loud and clear but this administration refuse to hear. They simple do not get it and neither do the supporters of this war, which is not a war against terrorist, never has been, but a war for oil and power and we will lose this war because they can and have the will to out last us. We lost long ago.
To them this is a religious war and to is it is political.

My son, who nearly died in this war, has a somewhat different take on it. I, being his mom, feel like you do only on a more personal level. I was horrified that he was ever in harm's way, and feel the same for any soldier.

There are those who say that the main benefit of this war was to take the fight elsewhere, to their back yards not ours. We have, thank God, not had another 9/11 (and not for lack of them salivating to kill us). I'm told they have a saying, "you must kiss the hand you cannot cut off" and that force is the only language they understand.

My son, who was in Army Intel, was told that the next 15 or so years (this was in 2001) would be dicey for the west, but that we would probably win out in the end. Some people call this the Long War. He was told that something big and bad has decided to take us down, and that there probably would be at least one more 9/11, probably in a coastal city.

I was also under strict orders from him, that if something happened to him and he was kidnapped and put on TV, that I was NOT to weep or beg, but be strong and stoic.

The other point of view is that withdrawal under terms that look like fleeing would actually make things worse. That jihad is not just because we are on Muslim land, but will pursue us just because. Their religious duty, as interpreted by Islamists, is to subdue 'Dar al Harb' and reduce us to either conversion to Islam or else life as humiliated Dhimmis under their rule. That much of their anger at us is caused by our advanced lives, prosperity, etc. while their nations largely languish in a sort of middle ages style backwardness. According to this view, we can't show anything that looks like cowardice or weakness to them, or they will simply pursue us home and the IEDs will be on our roads next. But that may be in the plan anyway.

We did not just crush Iraq and threaten Iran, we are also propping up the Saudi royal family who is selling us oil. We have been talking for decades about getting away from foreign oil, our time is growing short for doing this.

So, I also want the troops home. And I also want greater security for America, not just groping grandmas from Idaho at the airport. It is also important to realize that the fountain of spite directed towards us will continue to flow no matter what we do: stay or go. One of the disheartening discoveries after the fall of Saddam Hussein was how many criminals Iraq had, that were apparently somewhat subdued under his reign. Many 'terrorists' come from this class. I think it is important to understand the difference between Islam and Islamicism, and the threat to secular society that this movement poses.

We need to secure our borders, and stop being the giant open house we have been. Once upon a time we were a young nation, but we are grown up and filled in now and need to start acting like it. That's my two cents.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

My son, who nearly died in this war, has a somewhat different take on it. I, being his mom, feel like you do only on a more personal level. I was horrified that he was ever in harm's way, and feel the same for any soldier.

That is why people want the war to stop, in order to stop the killing of our troops.

There are those who say that the main benefit of this war was to take the fight elsewhere, to their back yards not ours. We have, thank God, not had another 9/11 (and not for lack of them salivating to kill us). I'm told they have a saying, "you must kiss the hand you cannot cut off" and that force is the only language they understand.

[u]There "back yard is not Iraq" but Afghanistan and Pakistan and now Iran. Never was Iraq and what gives us the right to take our war on terrorist to Iraq's back yard and destroy that country?[/u]

My son, who was in Army Intel, was told that the next 15 or so years (this was in 2000) would be dicey for the west, but that we would probably win out in the end. Some people call this the Long War. He was told that something big and bad has decided to take us down, and that there probably would be at least one more 9/11, probably in a coastal city.

What are we going to win that is equal to lives lost? We can best defend our selves for terrorist by securing our country. WE will never destroy all of them.

I was also under strict orders from him, that if something happened to him and he was kidnapped and put on TV, that I was NOT to weep or beg, but be strong and stoic.

I weep all the time and I will continue until they are all home.

The other point of view is that withdrawal under terms that look like fleeing would actually make things worse. That jihad is not just because we are on Muslim land, but will pursue us just because. Their religious duty, as interpreted by Islamists, is to subdue 'Dar el Harb' and reduce us to either conversion to Islam or else life as humiliated Dhimmis under their rule. That much of their anger at us is caused by our advanced lives, prosperity, etc. while their nations largely languish in a sort of middle ages style backwardness. According to this view, we can't show anything that looks like cowardice or weakness to them, or they will simply pursue us home and the IEDs will be on our roads next. But that may be in the plan anyway.

There is not way of knowing if thing will get worse. That is just more rhetoric for staying, because if this administration give up they will lose in their sight.
If cowardice or weakness save lives, so be it. If we secure our country we will not have to fear them following us. How are they capable of following us? They do not have the capablities. They are already hear and are comming through our open borders.

We did not just crush Iraq and threaten Iran, we are also propping up the Saudi royal family who is selling us oil. We have been talking for decades about getting away from foreign oil, our time is growing short for doing this.

It is all about oil and live of our troops are not worth it.

So, I also want the troops home. And I also want greater security for America, not just groping grandmas from Idaho at the airport. It is also important to realize that the fountain of spite directed towards us will continue to flow no matter what we do: stay or go. One of the disheartening discoveries after the fall of Saddam Hussein was how many criminals Iraq had, that were apparently somewhat subdued under his reign. Many 'terrorists' come from this class. I think it is important to understand the difference between Islam and Islamicism, and the threat to secular society that this movement poses.

[b]Saddam had on connection with terrorist.[/b]

We need to secure our borders, and stop being the giant open house we have been. Once upon a time we were a young nation, but we are grown up and filled in now and need to start acting like it. That's my two cents.

Secure our borders, ports and air space, built up our military and we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

I agree that the lives of our troops are not worth it. Not even one. Iraq had a bad family in charge (Saddam and his sons) but many of the rest of them seem decent and they were much more modern, cosmopolitan, and educated than in some other regimes (a friend of mine recently got back from a two year tour in Baghdad).

It was darkly comical, during the 'steel wave' - whenever they found so much as a candy wrapper, the news would crow 'evidence of WMD!' Of course it was never so. My son believes they had stockpiled bad stuff, I realize others question that.

The reason my son told me to be stoic is that he feels that witnessing sorrow and pain would be giving the kidnappers what they want, and he wanted me not to do that. As he is in the defense business, and once you enlist they can call you back (did everyone know that?) there is a remote possibility that life could take him back over there.

A big part of the problem with our security is the myth of America. It is so bad that many people, both foreign and domestic, belive that the words of Emma Lazarus are somehow part of our law. We are simply not a wide open nation welcoming all with open arms, and need to quit acting like we are. We give out visas - and never follow up on when they expire. We don't police the border, and have no idea who is here and how many. This is plain crazy, given how many people in the world are known to wish us harm, and we need to cut it out. We need to act like a mature nation, and that includes regulating access to our society.

We ARE going to have another 9-11 if we think we can stop it by being in Iraq and depleting our military. We stop it by bringing our troops home, putting them on our borders, on our port and air space. They are already here and they did not follow us, they came through an open border and with the trucks that will be crossing and not all of them will be checked, whole groups of them will be able to come in.

BetsyR: we owe you and people like you (I realize there are many right here!) many thanks for having such dedicated citizen soldiers to protect and defend us.

Also, re:

A big part of the problem with our security is the myth of America. It is so bad that many people, both foreign and domestic, belive that the words of Emma Lazarus are somehow part of our law. We are simply not a wide open nation welcoming all with open arms, and need to quit acting like we are.

Yes, absolutely. What many of the OBL/ US-should-be-everything-I-want-it-to-be crowd forget, is that many of the same countries which those people come from have very restrictive work and immigration laws in the world. Why can't the US have a similar set of standards and actually enforce our law???

I agree that our troops would be better utilized on the border. How anyone can think that an open border is a good thing in this day and age, between the Reconquista and the Islamists, and Lord knows who else, is beyond me. The explanation I've heard, that Bush is refusing to enforce immigration law because he plans to merge us with Mexico and Canada anyway, scares me. And, didn't the 9/11 crew get in through lax visas?
http://www.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray100902.asp

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

I agree that the lives of our troops are not worth it. Not even one. Iraq had a bad family in charge (Saddam and his sons) but many of the rest of them seem decent and they were much more modern, cosmopolitan, and educated than in some other regimes (a friend of mine recently got back from a two year tour in Baghdad).

[b]Most people do not know what Iraq was like before we went in. There were Jews, Christian and many other religions free to worship as they please. Many foreign students and much to say for their education system. People need to research Iraq and they would be amazed at what they will find. Now the country is destroyed and never will be the same. Yes, it was run by a ruthless dictator, and more have died and will continue to die because of our invasion and occupation. It is very sad because all that can afford to leave have left.[/[/b] .

Thank you PhredE, and Dyehard you are right that Iraq was not like, say, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. Even in Kuwait, people have far more rights and freedoms than in Saudi Arabia. The Queen of Jordan could go about with her hair showing. The spread of Islamic fundamentalism is poorly understood - witness the recent British incident where it was physicians who were involved. So, there is the issue of the physical border of America being left open, and also the virtual border through lax visas and infiltration.

Maybe I can comment on this from a somewhat different perspective--that of the Middle East as a mission field or an part of the world with different values. Twenty years ago I met some people who had spent an extensive amount of time in Central Asian countries and I myself was making some financial donations to missions that operate in Islamc areas. I had heard or read about how harsh their measures could be against minority religions--and had reservations against even financing evangelism or prosletying because it might lead to someones execution.
Yet as Western governments try to overcome differing culture there are also downside implications:

1. We pave the way for capitalistic businesses that introduce morally offensive behaviors. Older generations, despite their culture, are always shocked by lewdness or other behaviors that would endanger the younger ones. This is true in the Islamic world and is true in Communist countries, too. Even Hugo Chavez has sought to suppress drinking in Venezuela. Getting a partial view of moral standards of another country is very inadequate.

2. Even within Christian civilization there are a lot of differences and the US should be careful about assuming it has the final word on moral values. Plus there are collateral consequences. Several years ago I saw a statement by World Vision deploring harsh measures by the Israelis in Palestine? Why? The Christians end up bearing the brunt of whatever happens. Eastrern Orthodoxy, including Russian, is a huge force in the Eurasian world and they may have somewhat different views on a number of issues.

3. The US going unilaterally draws a lot of hostile focus on us. It also places an enormous financial burden on this country's taxpayers. I had always believed that the UN weapons inspectors should have continued on in Iraq. That mission could have been expanded to human rights violations, after time. The US might have financed it for a few billion and let it be manned by an international force---much cheaper than the invasion-- and American lives are not at risk. I had met some UN officials in New York in 2000, The ones I met were not ogres. Apparently in the Darfur situation international peacekeepers are going to handle it. Although In Afghanistan I think we did the right thing, but even the Taliban might have some moral points in their favor. We have a lot of power---but need to understand the cultures better.

4. Muslims are not angry at us simply for our power. When they come to a Western city many of them are appalled at the affront to their traditional values. Those values may be hard for us to understand and sometimes appalling, but to a crusading young Muslim they may be what he seeks emotional refuge or power in. But I have even heard people I work with express admiration for the way that Muslim cultures have a short tolerance for wrongdoing., as opposed to us spending hundreds of thousands to rehab someone. The bad thing is their intolerance of evangelical religion also contributes to their own internal turmoil.