Thread: FBI Confiscates "Ron Paul" coins in Idaho Raid

Whatever happened to responsible journalism? And why is there such a smear campaign by members of the media?

Originally Posted by kniggit

Whatever happened to responsible journalism? And why is there such a smear campaign by members of the media?

Thats a real good question, that i cant answer Im going to say This

I havent seen any (smear) but on the net or on the cable tv cnn\fox tabloids real news isnt saying much either way...

This ALIPAC member has posted this entity be it editorial opinion, news article, column, or web creation as info for the General Population (public) only. It is not intended as an endorsement for this candidate by the poster. Its use has not been anticipated to be used to, or as a discredit of any candidate mentioned herewith.


Liberty Dollar Seller Looking Forward To Big Ebay Payday
http://www.nolanchart.com/article297.html


Topic: Monetary Policy
Liberty Dollar Seller Looking Forward To Big Ebay Payday

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Ron Paul Gold Dollar being auctioned on Ebay has so far been bid up to $1800 and may fetch as much as $3000 by the time the auction closes on Wednesday evening.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Walt Thiessen
(Libertarian)
John Dean of Austin, TX is a Liberty Dollar owner who is preparing to reap the rewards of having invested in hard money. As of Nov. 15th, no more Silver Liberties will be produced by Liberty Services, formerly known as NORFED, Inc., who were raided by the US Government. All their dies, metals, money, computers and records were confiscated by the FBI with a total combined value in the tens of millions of dollars. Dean realized that his latest, paid order for some copper Ron Paul coins was also confiscated and would likely have to be written off as a total loss. Said Dean:

"I had a very large order for the Ron Paul copper dollars, and I already have a large quantity of silver and gold coins, and even one platinum, so I wanted the whole set. Besides thinking that I'm not going to ever see those copper Liberties again, I wanted to take advantage of the obvious hyper-inflated value or [my coins]. So I was willing to try my luck on the market by auctioning those."

Dean is off to a good start. He placed some of his coins up for auction on Ebay. So far, he has two gold Liberty coins listed that have been bid up to $1,800 each with two-and-a-half days remaining in the auctions. He says he's already seen someone else who put up a Liberty Dollar gold coin in a one-day auction. He says, "I didn't check it this morning, but as of last night it was selling for $3,000."

When he originally bought the gold coins, the price was "spot plus 14%, and at that time I believe gold was selling under $700, so I was paying about $750 a coin. Considering how bad the stock market has been lately, it's nice to see some black ink."

I asked Dean why he mentioned the Ron Paul campaign in his auction as one of his motivations for selling the coin. He replied:

"Well, I was already a devout Ron Paul supporter. Besides bumper stickers and lawn signs and shirts and a website that I own and talking to everyone I know about Ron Paul, I bought all of [the Ron Paul] currency, to hand out and to spend, as I already spend Liberty Dollars, and to bring into focus the issue of hard currency and the problems of the fiat dollar."

Dean hadn't been using Liberty Dollar currency for very long. Previously, he had actually seen Liberty Dollars being used for currency in his home town of Austin, TX, which apparently is a popular place for using Liberty Dollars. He says:

"It wasn't until [Ron Paul dollars] were offered...this year that [my wife and I] became a Liberty Dollar associate so we could buy the Ron Paul Dollars a little bit cheaper than [retail], especially the gold which you purchased as the margin over spot. In that time, we also purchased quite a bit of regular silver Liberty coins, $5, $10, and $20. And also through our local RCO (Regional Currency Office—RCOs were able to get the best prices from NORFED over spot before NORFED was shut down, and they handled the local currency exchange of Liberty Dollars and Federal Reserve Notes) we got a list of all the local businesses in town that accept silver Liberty Dollars, and we were quite shocked to see how many businesses we were already supporting and purchasing from, as we were able to keep doing our normal thing.

"We have not had to be real pushy to get people to accept Liberty Dollars. I have asked a few business owners I frequent a lot, and maybe 50% of them would end up taking them for some amount of time. They usually didn't want to have a whole lot of them. They usually take them as something to put in their pocket and hold onto."

Dean had successfully transacted business using Liberty Dollars with a convenience store, a hardware store, restaurants, and even his local tax return preparer! He said:

"I don't really like asking people to give me change on silver Liberties. I wouldn't want to buy a $3 item with a $20 silver Liberty. I would find that dishonest.... I like to pay with exact change, and I usually get pretty close to that, so I don't ask for change.

"When I talk to people about NORFED and silver Liberties, I am completely up front and honest with them that this is a one ounce silver piece. I'll mention the spot price of silver (say it's $14 or $15). [The coin] says $20 on it, that's for convenience's sake, and I've never had anyone want to just transact at the price of silver. They always just go for the face value. At times, even after this whole spiel, I've had two or three people behind me in line, wanting to buy more of the coins from me at the face value. I have never had anyone pay anything less than face value for it."

Dean was a Liberty associate, which gave him a discount compared to face value, roughly one half the difference between the face value and the price NORFED charged the RCOs. The price they charged to RCOs was the spot price plus their costs of minting the coins.

I asked Dean to predict where his auction prices were going to end up, but he said, "I don't like to make predictions. I just like to let the market make that decision for me."

Dean said he read the entire warrant for the raid on NORFED, and he says it was worded very vaguely. It starts off very nasty, saying that these are horrible criminals engaging in fraud and money laundering, and then it just started explaining the whole business as we've sketched in this article. He says:

"It seemed to say that because [NORFED was] making money, selling money, that it's a crime, and the fact that they own cars means they have to be confiscated, and [the FBI] need to take their entire business. Lots of businesses engage in the business of making money, buying low and selling high. I'm just completely flabbergasted that what [Norfed] is doing is considered such a high crime that the Secret Service and the FBI have to get involved.

"I do hope [NORFED] are vindicated in the end, but I think it will be a hard battle. Certainly all my thoughts and prayers go out to them."

I came away from this interview with a strong impression of just how viable hard currency is, even in a marketplace governed by fear manufactured by the Federal government. Regardless of what happens with the NORFED case, I don't think we have seen the last of hard currency being used in transactions in this country, particularly with the hidden inflation that the government continues to pretend doesn't exist. Even if the government were to decide to make ownership of hard metals illegal again (as they have done in the past), it's likely that the net result would only be to drive the price of hard currency so high that Federal Reserve Notes would suffer as an unintended consequence.

One thing is certain. Those who invested in Liberty Dollars from NORFED are poised to reap huge rewards, particularly since it seems likely at this point that they are no longer going to be minted. That makes them collector's items, and collectible gold, silver, and platinum tend to sell at many times the intrinsic value of a precious metal coin, with the final value tending to be based on how many or few of those coins are in circulation. By raiding NORFED, the Feds are trying to punish that company for conducting transactions which clearly have enriched their customers many times over as a result of that raid.

They are buying them with Real USA $$$$

I guess that Good old American dollar hasnt become all the way worth less.
Sounds like its worth alot to a many of Pauls supporters.

Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN

They are buying them with Real USA $$$$

I guess that Good old American dollar hasnt become all the way worth less.
Sounds like its worth alot to a many of Pauls supporters.

You're spinning is getting irritating.

MOST of those coins WERE NOT shipped. They were confiscated. A small fraction actually were sent out before the FBI raid. So please stop your obvious biasness.

Like anything that is in demand, the value goes up! right? If the FBI confiscated MOST of them, and a select few are actually 'out there', you better believe they are gonna be worth something. Also, non-Ron Paul supporters make up most of this companies business.

C'mon, uhmmm, integrity please.

I WISH I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOME weeks ago... !!!!

Also --- Your statement is rather funny. IF the dollar was worth more, they wouldn't be going for such a high value, would they? hahahhaha.... You actually discredited your own statement. It is precisely the low value of the dollar which is WHY it is going for such a high price... wow...hahahhaa.

Originally Posted by BrightNail

Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN

They are buying them with Real USA $$$$

I guess that Good old American dollar hasnt become all the way worth less.
Sounds like its worth alot to a many of Pauls supporters.

You're spinning is getting irritating.

MOST of those coins WERE NOT shipped. They were confiscated. A small fraction actually were sent out before the FBI raid. So please stop your obvious biasness.

Like anything that is in demand, the value goes up! right? If the FBI confiscated MOST of them, and a select few are actually 'out there', you better believe they are gonna be worth something. Also, non-Ron Paul supporters make up most of this companies business.

C'mon, uhmmm, integrity please.

I WISH I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOME weeks ago... !!!!

Also --- Your statement is rather funny. IF the dollar was worth more, they wouldn't be going for such a high value, would they? hahahhaha.... You actually discredited your own statement. It is precisely the low value of the dollar which is WHY it is going for such a high price... wow...hahahhaa.

That doesnt make any since.


Well certainly my statement was not meant to irritate you
But since you haven’t thought for your self before you posted I will reply.

If you want me to believe that the liberty dollars is being sold on eBay for more real money because the American dollar is worth less.
You would have a better time in getting me to believe that any president canidate actually practices what he preaches. Or that the law currently would even let him....

I wish i had a few to unload on ebay
lol... better hold on to them
They might just be collecters items in about twenty years...

Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN

If you want me to believe that the liberty dollars is being sold on eBay for more real money because the American dollar is worth less.
You would have a better time in getting me to believe that any president canidate actually practices what he preaches. Or that the law currently would even let him....

I wish i had a few to unload on ebay
lol... better hold on to them
They might just be collecters items in about twenty years...

Perhaps I misread you. I apologize. But isn't that how economics work, if the dollar has less buying power - it takes more to buy something? The price of items go up, so what took a dollar to buy - now takes $4. So yes, in essence the liberty dollar will hold its value and to buy it now would be a better investment. Plus, since it is in demand - it is worth more. Most for its value, but some for its nostalgia worth.

This ALIPAC member has posted this entity be it editorial opinion, news article, column, or web creation as info for the General Population (public) only. It is not intended as an endorsement for this candidate by the poster. Its use has not been anticipated to be used to, or as a discredit of any candidate mentioned herewith.


If It's Good Enough For Mickey, Why Not For Paul?
Alec MacGillis
Posted at 3:24 PM ET on Nov 19, 2007

http://blog.washingtonpost.com


News of a federal raid last week on a "sound money" outfit that is selling "Ron Paul Dollars," reported in Saturday's Post, is generating no end of quips in the blogosphere about what this development says about the Paul campaign's eye-popping recent fundraising success. Wags ask: How much of that record $4.2 million one-day haul that Paul collected earlier this month actually came in the form of dubloons imprinted with Paul's face, not U.S. legal tender?

But these jokes may be missing the point entirely. In fact, the lack of confidence that many Paul supporters have in U.S. currency may well be one reason why they are sending so many of their greenbacks to Paul's campaign, and thereby making his outsider libertarian bid for the Republican presidential nomination a force to be reckoned with. For sound-money supporters who fear a coming collapse in the value of the dollar, it makes eminent sense to send a few hundred dollars to the one candidate who is arguing for a monetary revolution, instead of simply watching that money rapidly crumble in value.

As Exhibit A, consider Peter Schiff, a financial adviser and sound-money advocate whose Connecticut firm, Euro Pacific Capital, specializes in investing clients' money in overseas assets to spare them what he argues will be a destructive decline in the value of the dollar followed by major deterioration in the U.S. economy. Schiff, who earlier this year published the investment guide "Crash Proof," recently sent out a "call to action" e-mail to the 60,000 people in his database urging them to send the $2,300 maximum-allowed contribution to Paul's campaign, describing this as one of the most productive uses for their rapidly fading U.S. dollars.

"If you are fortunate enough to be one of my clients, writing a $2,300 check should not be a problem. As I have likely made you tons of money over the years, here is an opportunity to donate some of it to a worthy cause. We have made our money by betting against the U.S and betting against the dollar. Giving $2,300 of our winnings to Ron Paul gives us the opportunity to bet ON America for a change. And it's a bet none of us can afford to lose, and the best part about it is that if we all make this bet together we can't lose," Schiff wrote in the e-mail. "My penchant for foreign investments has from time to time caused some of my critics to label me unpatriotic. While such attacks are clearly out of line, using some of our foreign profits to secure the election of Ron Paul goes a long way toward defusing such allegations. If you are not a client and you think $2,300 is a lot of money, it's not. In fact, if Ron Paul is not our next President, such a sum will be practically worthless by the end of the term of whoever is. So what do you have to lose? Just write the check and hope for the best."

In an interview today, Schiff said he expects that the federal raid on the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code had added more weight to his argument for giving to the Paul campaign. "The federal government is debasing the currency and then it comes in and punishes people who are doing something to protect themselves," he said. "The fact that these guys would come in and raid this organization shows how much they've got to fear from this. If more and more people start shunning the currency, it takes away from their power."

Norfed, which is based in Evansville, Ind., says that in the last decade it has put into circulation more than $20 million in "Liberty Dollars," metal medallions and paper certificates that it says are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho. The group's founder and director, Bernard von NotHaus, says that federal agents seized more than 50,000 copper "Ron Paul Dollars" that the group was selling for $1, in addition to smaller amounts of silver Ron Paul Dollars that sold for $20, gold ones that went for $1,000 and platinum ones that went for $2,000. Agents also raided the Idaho minting company that makes the organization's medallions, seizing the huge pallets of silver and gold stored there, von NotHaus said.

The FBI and U.S. Attorney's office in western North Carolina, which is handling the case, have declined to comment on the raids, but an affidavit filed in Asheville earlier this month describes a two-year long undercover investigation of the group, based partly on evidence obtained by an informant who posed as someone wanting to become a regional associate for the group. The affidavit states the group is being investigated for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal" and "making of possessing likenesses of coins." "The goal of Norfed is to undermine the United States goverment's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency," the affidavit states.

This argument met with ridicule over the weekend from the prolific on-line network of Ron Paul supporters and sound money advocates, some of whom sarcastically predicted that the feds would next be going after Disneyworld for selling "Disney Dollars" for use inside the amusement park. "Here is a Mickey Mouse coin issued by that criminal, separatist organization, the Walt Disney Corporation. Did someone fail Common Sense 101?" wrote one commenter on the Post's Web site, offering a link to an image of the offending Mickey dubloon. Wrote another, "With commemorative coins advertised in every Sunday newspaper, and given the Donald Duck silver coins sold at Disney Land, this is an obvious attack on Ron Paul, a legitimate Presidential candidate, by the Federal Government. I am going to respond by going to Ron Paul's web site, easily found with Google, and giving $100 today."

Lawrence White, an economics professor at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, said Liberty Dollar supporters had a point in charging overreaction on the part of the federal government. The question to be asked of Liberty Dollars, he said, is whether they make any sense for customers to buy -- while the certificates may offer a hedge for those convinced that the dollar will go in the tank, they come with the obvious downside that it is difficult to find others willing to accept the Liberty Dollars as a legal tender (though not in Berryville, Ark., where, according to the chamber of commerce, about half of the town's 80 merchants accept Liberty Dollars.)But that choice should be up to Americans to make, White said. "Unless they think people are being defrauded, it seems absurd to me," he said of the raid."The public ought to have a choice. Thank goodness we have an alternative to the post office."

A spokesman for the U.S. Mint responded to questions today by pointing reporters to the "consumer alerts" portion of its Web site, which carries warnings against using Liberty Dollars alongside warnings against mistaking as legitimate currency coins including: "Silver surfer" quarters created to help market the Fox movie "Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer"; a "Freedom Tower Silver Dollar" originating from the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands; and an "Elvis Presley 25th Anniversary Tennessee State Quarter Tribute."

A Paul campaign spokesman, Jesse Benton, today reiterated that the campaign has no connection with the Ron Paul Dollars (though supporters have taken pictures of grinning Paul next to the coins.) He said the campaign is seeing an "uptick" in Web site visits and contributions following reports of the raid. The real test of the campaign's fundraising strength, though, will come next month, when supporters are organizing another one-day fundraising "bomb" timed with the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party.

Von NotHaus is doing his part, urging on his Web site (which he says has seen a huge spike in traffic) that supporters respond to the raid by contributing to Paul, as well as urging them to sign up as part of a class-action lawsuit against the federal government over the coin seizures. He is biding his time at his home in Miami, expecting to be arrested and indicted sometime in the near future. In fact, he said today that he is kind of hoping that the government makes its move sooner than later, so eager is he to make a stand on the part of sound money theories.

"I'm sure I'm going to be arrested, and I'd be disappointed if I'm not," he said. "I want to get going. I think it's going to be exciting."

A Ron Paul Supporter Explains the "Liberty Dollar"

http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/...paul_supp.html

Ed. Note: Earlier this month, the people behind something called the "Liberty Dollar" saw their offices raided by the FBI. The Liberty Dollar bills itself as a "private voluntary barter currency," which I assumed was code for a libertarian scheme designed to bring about the downfall of the Federal Reserve, in the spirit of the fiercely anti-Fed libertarian demigod Ron Paul. (The Liberty Dollar folks have a coin with Ron Paul on it.) I reached out to a libertarian friend who writes the blog The Agnoptimists to get some hard answers. His thoughts are below. —JS

As a libertarian, I like to argue with opponents of my free market views by focusing on outcomes: simply put, the central question is whether centralized government programs are really more attractive than market outcomes.

Anyone who seeks the best solutions to society's dilemmas should embrace experiments that allow direct comparison between government projects and private enterprise. The U.S. Post Office is constantly improving its service due to competition from companies like FedEx and UPS, for example.

The Federal Reserve is a favorite target for libertarian critique, and with good reason. There is no inherent value backing the U.S. dollar; instead, a small group of powerful individuals unilaterally and undemocratically controls our nation's money supply. They are free to redistribute wealth from savers to borrowers, which they do incrementally but consistently by creating new money, and their inability to manage interest rates perfectly is at least partially responsible for the economically destructive boom/bust business cycle and the current housing crisis. Worst of all, U.S. citizens are forced to accept the U.S. dollar—the term "legal tender" means that people cannot refuse the dollar even if inflation renders it worthless. Alan Greenspan was famously skeptical of this deeply flawed system, and Americans should not be content.

The Liberty Dollar is one of perhaps 60 alternative currencies that represent a first step toward providing Americans with an option other than the current system. Most are used in small communities and intended only as supplements to the U.S. dollar, but the Liberty Dollar's creators are more ambitious. The Liberty Dollar, which boasts 20 million units in circulation, is meant to compete with the U.S. dollar on its strengths as a stable, easily identifiable, and difficult to counterfeit store of value. The company, which is run on a for-profit basis, promises to redeem its currency for gold and silver at any time, and the integrity of its systems is monitored by an independent auditor. The costs of the experiment are born exclusively by the buyers of Liberty Dollars, who continue to also pay for the Federal Reserve and U.S. Mint through taxes. Merchants are and will always be free to reject the new money, of course.

But success has been hard to come by. Last year, the government warned the public that the use of Liberty Dollars could earn a five-year prison term. On November 14th, FBI agents raided the Liberty Dollar offices, seizing gold and silver, manufacturing equipment, and customer records. The news received little coverage, and the idea of an alternative currency was quickly dismissed as a fringe movement. What the pundits fail to understand, however, is that the prohibition of completely voluntary and privately funded monetary experimentation dooms Americans to live with an unsatisfactory status quo. The government's actions in this case demonstrate the danger of overly centralized authority, and the public's complacency is worrisome. Everyone should agree that government hurts the public by prohibiting others from providing a better service than its own, but Ron Paul is the only prominent politician willing to address this critical issue.

— Nathan Labenz