Thread: FBI Confiscates "Ron Paul" coins in Idaho Raid

Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN

This Guy sounds like a Nut!!!

"risk a few years in federal prison to vindicate it."

I’m sorry but the last thing this Guy needs to be doing right now is posting on the internet.

I agree that he doesn't need to be posting without someone filtering his words right now, BUT unless you have suffered the sudden and violent loss of years and years of YOUR work YOUR efforts and YOUR personal dreams, the sudden and violent loss of EVERYTHING but a few personal possessions, and all at the hands of other humans instead of an "act of God," you can have no idea what this man is feeling right now. He is feeling betrayed, attacked by people that we are taught to trust from birth, violated in the deepest and most personal ways.

This is a thing that leaves your very soul feeling violated, it's causes you to speak without internal moderation working. I hope that he has personal support... he's going to need it when the initial shock and rage fade into the reality of the situation.

I pray that he recovers himself faster than I did.

Originally Posted by orchid_noir

Originally Posted by GREGAGREATAMERICAN

This Guy sounds like a Nut!!!

"risk a few years in federal prison to vindicate it."

I’m sorry but the last thing this Guy needs to be doing right now is posting on the internet.

I agree that he doesn't need to be posting without someone filtering his words right now, BUT unless you have suffered the sudden and violent loss of years and years of YOUR work YOUR efforts and YOUR personal dreams, the sudden and violent loss of EVERYTHING but a few personal possessions, and all at the hands of other humans instead of an "act of God," you can have no idea what this man is feeling right now. He is feeling betrayed, attacked by people that we are taught to trust from birth, violated in the deepest and most personal ways.

This is a thing that leaves your very soul feeling violated, it's causes you to speak without internal moderation working. I hope that he has personal support... he's going to need it when the initial shock and rage fade into the reality of the situation.


I pray that he recovers himself faster than I did.

lets not forget the rest of what I said
Simply enough,
This coinage could have been certified by the U.S. mint and should have been.
Then there would have be no problems
All this could have been avoided....

The point of my posting this article is (leave aside the paper so called dollars that are certificates) Sunsine mining co. in Coeur D'Alene Idaho ( privately owned) has the right to produce any kind of collector items they want with their gold, these pieces were sold for their value weight of a precious metal. The Government came in a confiscated everything from Sunshine mines, who is not responsible for NORFED'S paper certificates.

These gold coins are not sold as legal tender they are sold as a collecter's idem so why would they have taken everything I repeat they took everything that belonged to sunshine mines. Get it! they took all precious metal in the place, not just what belonged to NORFED, is this the American way. As far as I am concered it is giving the Feds an excuse to steal from this mining co. I can see them taking the gold and silver being stored by norfed.

In Ron Paul Coins, Federal Agents Don't Trust



Rep. Ron Paul, candidate and currency.

As if Ron Paul's supporters needed any more motivation to storm the battlements and wreak havoc on the Republican presidential primary, now comes this: the feds are trying to take away their money.

Federal agents on Wednesday raided the Evansville, Indiana headquarters of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Codes (NORFED), an organization of "sound money" advocates that for the past decade has been selling what it calls Liberty Dollars, a private currency it says is backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, with a total of more than $20 million in circulation, according to the group.

NORFED officials said yesterday that the raid occurred just as they were preparing to mail out the first batch of about 60,000 "Ron Paul Dollars," copper coins sold for $1 and decorated with the craggy visage of Paul, the libertarian Texas congressman, Iraq war opponent and sound-money advocate who has sparked a surprisingly vigorous insurgent campaign for the GOP nomination. The group says that it in recent months it already shipped out about 10,000 in silver Ron Paul dollars that sold for $20.

Bernard von NotHaus, NORFED's founder and executive director, said in an interview from his home in Miami Friday night that his employees in Evansville had received the copper dollars late last week and managed to mail out only about 3,500 of them so far. After a six-hour raid, he said, the agents left with the rest of the coins, which weighed about two tons total, as well as smaller amounts of silver Ron Paul dollars, gold Ron Paul dollars that sell for $1,000 and platinum Ron Paul dollars that sell for $2,000. There was a separate raid, NotHaus said, of Sunshine Mint in Coer D'Alene, Idaho, a company that prints the organization's coins, where von NotHaus said agents seized the huge pallets of silver and gold worth more than $1 million that the organization says back the paper certificates issued to its customers.

"They took everything, all of the computers, everything but the desks and chairs," said von NotHaus, who says he served 25 years as the mintmaster for the Royal Hawaiian Mint. "The federal government really is afraid."

The Indianapolis branch of the FBI declined to comment on the raid and referred calls to the U.S. Attorney's office for Western North Carolina in Charlotte. That office's spokeswoman, Suellen Pierce, also declined to comment. But bloggers at the libertarian Reason Foundation posted on-line a 35-page copy affidavit for a search warrant filed last week with the Western District in Asheville laying out the government's case against NORFED. Pierce said that the search warrant in the case had been accidentally made public by a court clerk and has since been sealed, under court rules.

In the affidavit, an FBI special agent states that he is investigating NORFED for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal," "making or possessing likeness of coins," mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. "The goal of NORFED is to undermine the United States government's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency for the purpose of repealing the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code," he states.

The agent states that the investigation started two years ago. And the U.S. Mint a year ago issued a warning against using the Liberty Dollar, prompting a lawsuit by NORFED. But that has not kept Liberty Dollar fans from speculating on-line that the raid was prompted by Paul's strong campaign -- which recently raised more than $4 million in a single day -- or by the precipitous recent decline in the value of the dollar.

A Paul campaign spokeswoman, Kerri Price, said yesterday that while Paul also supports abolishing the Federal Reserve, the campaign "does not have any affiliation with Liberty Dollars at all." von NotHaus confirmed this, saying that he knows Paul because they "move in the same circles" but that he had expressly not talked with Paul about his plans for the special coins so as not to violate federal election rules.

But the coins have been another rallying point for Paul's supporters, who have asked Paul to pose for photographs with the coins on the campaign trail. Jim Forsythe, a Paul organizer in New Hampshire who ordered 150 of the copper Ron Paul dollars, said yesterday that the seizure of the coins would likely fuel more support for Paul, who scores close to double-digits in some New Hampshire polls. "People are pretty upset about this," he said. "The dollar is going down the tubes and this is something that can protect the value of their money and the Federal Reserve is threatened by that. It'll definitely fire people up."

Von NotHaus, meanwhile, is urging Liberty Dollar supporters to express their outrage by donating to Paul, saying on the group's Web site that "in light of this assault on our financial freedom, it is clear that we need Ron Paul to lead this country more than ever." He said that all of his bank accounts have been frozen and that he expects that a federal indictment will soon be in the offing, saying that "once the federal government starts an investigation like this and takes it to a grand jury, they can indict a ham sandwich." Should he be charged, he said, "I'll turn it into my golden opportunity to validate the Liberty Dollar as a legal lawful currency and save the country from a monetary collapse."

What he's most concerned about for now, though, is the thought of all his customers waiting for their Ron Paul dollars. "People aren't going to get their orders, and they aren't going to get them for a while," he said.

That is good news, of course, for those already holding the coins. On eBay, the silver Ron Paul dollars that were purchased for $20 were selling for more than $170 last night.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-t...l?hpid=topnews

Maybe it is Ron Paul - maybe it is the government doesn't want us owning gold or silver.

Will this be the first of many?

But did it have to be certified by the mint?

I don't know about you but I never voted to stop the barter system in the United States.

The paper certificates should be perfectly legal, when you buy a certificate all it says is you own that much gold stored at Sunshine mint, part of sunshine mineing co., the gold, silver, etc. is there and it belongs to you now with that certificate. If you want to trade that certificate for something else and the other person wants what you have, you should have the right to do so.

The coins are not counterfit, they are made of precious metal which you have the right to purchase in any form as long as it is not a copy of U.S. currancy.

And since when can we not barter....like, I will pour your drive way and you landscape my yard, or Ill trade you this TV for that VCR.

Just more of our rights taken away. And I do believe this has to do with the Ron Paul collector piece and raising money for his campaign, a little odd they let the liberty dollar be circulated for 10 years.

Whats next the government going to confiscate all gold, silver and copper mines from private owners, or tell them what they can produce with the precious metels or can not produce.

I do think it is the Ron Paul dollar.

Also, I'm not sure the government would like us to not be able to purchase gold or silver. Could this happen again?

Either way, it is bad - very bad.

Actually, I think barter is legal - but I understand you are supposed to pay income tax on it. At least there was a dust up about it some years ago.

Originally Posted by TexasCowgirl

Originally Posted by SOSADFORUS

FBI raids seize dies, records in CdA

In a 1999 interview with The Spokesman-Review, von NotHaus claimed his money was not only legal, but much-needed competition for the government. At the time, Federal Reserve and House Banking Committee officials collectively scratched their heads when asked if von NotHaus' coin business was illegal.

No money is illegal, it's undocumented!!!!

GOOD ONE!

I will back up my thoughts ...

USA CODES

Originally Posted by SOSADFORUS

The point of my posting this article is (leave aside the paper so called dollars that are certificates) Sunsine mining co. in Coeur D'Alene Idaho ( privately owned) has the right to produce any kind of collector items they want with their gold, these pieces were sold for their value weight of a precious metal. The Government came in a confiscated everything from Sunshine mines, who is not responsible for NORFED'S paper certificates.

These gold coins are not sold as legal tender they are sold as a collecter's idem so why would they have taken everything I repeat they took everything that belonged to sunshine mines. Get it! they took all precious metal in the place, not just what belonged to NORFED, is this the American way. As far as I am concered it is giving the Feds an excuse to steal from this mining co. I can see them taking the gold and silver being stored by norfed.

First of all I dont even know if all this stuff is true.

Lets not get into a big argument till all the facts come out
But...
I get it all right… I’m not falling into the conspiracy theory thrill wagon that every one want America to jump on, when the not so simple facts are.
It’s against the law in the UNited stats and abroud to make coins and paper money sell it to the public when you say you’re backing it up with Gold and Silver, in your own vaults and trying to compete with the US treasury. Just in case no one knows by now (That’s the Governments job )
whats next your own tax form) we can call it (my own187)


There are in fact commemorative coins and the like that are made and sold and back by the US Mint...Or backed by the USA treasury dept.

There are many things here that has to be looked at
More then these few online pieces of tissue papers let on too.
One… are they, this so called NORFED are making paper certificates and coins, selling them in the United States as money to compete with the current legal Government currency if they are then them boys at NORFED have more problems then I have time.

two they aint a bank privet or Fed


Just one of the laws broken

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

It would have been just as easy to get permission and work with the US mint to make this work…



I did find this little tid bit

Section 491. Tokens or paper used as money

(a) Whoever, being 18 years of age or over, not lawfully
authorized, makes, issues, or passes any coin, card, token, or
device in metal, or its compounds, intended to be used as money, or
whoever, being 18 years of age or over, with intent to defraud,
makes, utters, inserts, or uses any card, token, slug, disk,
device, paper, or other thing similar in size and shape to any of
the lawful coins or other currency of the United States or any coin
or other currency not legal tender in the United States, to procure
anything of value, or the use or enjoyment of any property or
service from any automatic merchandise vending machine,
postage-stamp machine, turnstile, fare box, coinbox telephone,
parking meter or other lawful receptacle, depository, or
contrivance designed to receive or to be operated by lawful coins
or other currency of the United States, shall be fined under this
title, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
(b) Whoever manufactures, sells, offers, or advertises for sale,
or exposes or keeps with intent to furnish or sell any token, slug,
disk, device, paper, or other thing similar in size and shape to
any of the lawful coins or other currency of the United States, or
any token, disk, paper, or other device issued or authorized in
connection with rationing or food and fiber distribution by any
agency of the United States, with knowledge or reason to believe
that such tokens, slugs, disks, devices, papers, or other things
are intended to be used unlawfully or fraudulently to procure
anything of value, or the use or enjoyment of any property or
service from any automatic merchandise vending machine,
postage-stamp machine, turnstile, fare box, coinbox telephone,
parking meter, or other lawful receptacle, depository, or
contrivance designed to receive or to be operated by lawful coins
or other currency of the United States shall be fined under this
title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
Nothing contained in this section shall create immunity from
criminal prosecution under the laws of any State, Commonwealth of
Puerto Rico, territory, possession, or the District of Columbia.
(c) "Knowledge or reason to believe", within the meaning of
paragraph (b) of this section, may be shown by proof that any
law-enforcement officer has, prior to the commission of the offense
with which the defendant is charged, informed the defendant that
tokens, slugs, disks, or other devices of the kind manufactured,
sold, offered, or advertised for sale by him or exposed or kept
with intent to furnish or sell, are being used unlawfully or
fraudulently to operate certain specified automatic merchandise
vending machines, postage-stamp machines, turnstiles, fare boxes,
coin-box telephones, parking meters, or other receptacles,
depositories, or contrivances, designed to receive or to be
operated by lawful coins of the United States.


lets not leave out this one



Section 514. Fictitious obligations

(a) Whoever, with the intent to defraud -
(1) draws, prints, processes, produces, publishes, or otherwise
makes, or attempts or causes the same, within the United States;
(2) passes, utters, presents, offers, brokers, issues, sells,
or attempts or causes the same, or with like intent possesses,
within the United States; or
(3) utilizes interstate or foreign commerce, including the use
of the mails or wire, radio, or other electronic communication,
to transmit, transport, ship, move, transfer, or attempts or
causes the same, to, from, or through the United States,

any false or fictitious instrument, document, or other item
appearing, representing, purporting, or contriving through scheme
or artifice, to be an actual security or other financial instrument
issued under the authority of the United States, a foreign
government, a State or other political subdivision of the United
States, or an organization, shall be guilty of a class B felony.
(b) For purposes of this section, any term used in this section
that is defined in section 513(c) has the same meaning given such
term in section 513(c).
(c) The United States Secret Service, in addition to any other
agency having such authority, shall have authority to investigate
offenses under this section.



Has the man whos face has been put on this coin and or paper play money
made a statement yet...

Did I leave out
if these guys did nothing wrong then they get their stuff back and every one walks...
But now I’m intrigued… Makes me wonder about the 9/11 coins that were stoped and such other storey attached with this

Originally Posted by SOSADFORUS

It asked purchasers with pending orders to be patient.

If they have pending orders how are the "customers" paying? MONOPOLY MONEY!!! NO! IT"S AMERICAN DOLLARS! SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!