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Thread: President Trump’s tax plan keeps the socialist communist progressive income tax alive

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  1. #31
    MW
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    Judy wrote (excerpt):

    When the feds pass the FairTax, and I'm convinced they will in the not too distant future
    Ha, ha, ha.

    Seeing the unfair tax plan pass during your lifetime is about as likely as seeing Florida residents get hit by a snow blizzard in August during your lifetime. Why you've chosen to dedicate so much of your time on this is beyond my comprehension. Those wasted minutes, hours, days are now gone and lost forever.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ** Edmund Burke**

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  2. #32
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    And wouldn't you just love that!! Well, I intend to live a very very long time and watch all Anti-FairTax Republicans lose their gravy trains earned off the misery of income tax slavery. I've been on the case of a national sales tax to replace the income tax since I wrote a paper on it in college, got an A+ on it, and the professor read it to the class, then used it in some research he was doing and disseminated it through the academic community. So, your little insults and put-downs don't touch me. I remember well the C students who turned in awe and shouted stupidity like "my daddy is a salesman and won't be able to deduct his expenses" .... LOL!! To which i calmly replied deduct them from what? When you owe zero, you have nothing to deduct from.

    Oh yes, this tax plan that's just passed, it's the road-map to passing the FairTax, and it will not only pass during my lifetime, it will pass during Trump's Presidency.

    Have a great day, MW!
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  3. #33
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    The alleged fairtax imposes a tax upon the sale of a working person's labor

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    The FairTax doesn't tax laborers or workers . . .

    Judy,

    The truth is, the alleged fairtax imposes a direct tax on the sale of property which working people have in their own labor. Why do you deny the truth?


    TAXABLE PROPERTY OR SERVICE-

    `(A) GENERAL RULE- The term `taxable property or service' means--
    `(i) any property (including leaseholds of any term or rents with respect to such property) but excluding--
    `(I) intangible property, and
    `(II) used property, and
    `(ii) any service (including any financial intermediation services as determined by section 801).


    `(d) Liability for Tax-

    `(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.


    `(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER-A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.

    `(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased

    `(a) In General- Any person liable to collect and remit taxes pursuant to section 103(a) who is engaged in a trade or business shall register as a seller with the sales tax administering authority administering the taxes imposed by this subtitle.



    Now let us examine how this tax upon “property” would affect Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people. Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on weekends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a pluming company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community to raise extra cash.

    Under the alleged fair tax Mary and Joe Sixpack’s inalienable right to sell the property they have in their labor becomes a taxable event, and, they must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, collect a federal tax for Congress, file federal sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury, and they will be compelled to keep any records Congress may dream up, not to mention the threat of audits which will constantly haunt them if they dare to sell the property they have in their labor.

    Funny thing is, our founding fathers, during the Constitutional Convention of 1787, were fully aware of the oppressive nature of direct taxes imposed upon property and this is the very reason for our founding fathers demanding in our Constitution that No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.


    Judy,

    Why do you support our federal government taxing the property which working people have in their own labor?

    JWK


    "The property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property."___ Butchers’ Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)
    Last edited by johnwk; 12-30-2017 at 01:47 PM.

  4. #34
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post

    I intend to live a very very long time and watch all Anti-FairTax Republicans lose their gravy trains earned off the misery of income tax slavery. I've been on the case of a national sales tax to replace the income tax since I wrote a paper on it in college, got an A+ on it, and the professor read it to the class, then used it in some research he was doing and disseminated it through the academic community.
    And my research and promotion of returning to our Constitution's original tax plan appears in the Congressional Record, on two separate occasions; was the subject of a number of radio talk shows during the 1980s and early 90s; appeared in The Washington Times; and is found in "Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan" ___ a work documenting our Constitution's original tax plan which you would subvert with a tax plan that enslaves working people by taxing them on the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.

    How can you, Judy, condemn "income tax slavery" and support the "fairtax' slavery which imposes a tax on working people who sell the property each has in their own labor?

    JWK
    “…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address
    Last edited by johnwk; 12-30-2017 at 02:19 PM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    A sales tax is an indirect tax, not a direct tax.

    Yes, if you babysit or mow lawns or clean homes or moonlight on your plumbing employer, or whatever and do so yourself not through an employer, that is a service and it is taxable under the FairTax. because that is a final retail point of sale service. You charge your customers the tax, the same as your employer would do if they were providing the service, the customers pays it not you, you just collect it, and are paid a nice fee for the service of collecting the tax, and once a month you send it, less your fee, to the state who sends it to the federal government.

    I have absolutely no problem with that. None whatsoever. They are generously compensated for the service they provide in collecting the tax.

    Under the present income tax system these same people are required to report the income, keep their records, file a return and pay out of their own earnings both self-employment and income tax and are not compensated for that bureaucracy and compliance costs.

    If you don't want to bother with it, then find a second job with an employer and free yourself of it.

    Your choice. Everything about the FairTax is your choice to do or not to do, to buy or not to buy, to sell or not to sell, to pay or not to pay.

    In fact, there's already all these service businesses out there who help buyers find babysitters and handymen and plumbers and so forth, so I see an Uber-like service springing up that hires these second-income seekers and handles all that for them. But again, it's your choice, your liberty, all the way down the line. With the FairTax, you are FREE to maximize your options however you choose.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    A sales tax is an indirect tax, not a direct tax.

    .
    And a tax upon the sale of property, which every working person has in their own labor, is a direct tax upon property.

    Why do you want to enslave Mary and Joe Sixpack and make them slaves to our federal government? Why do you want to compel them to spend a portion of their lives each month filling out and filing fairtax returns and paying a tax on the sale of their property?

    JWK
    Last edited by johnwk; 12-30-2017 at 03:07 PM.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    And my research and promotion of returning to our Constitution's original tax plan appears in the Congressional Record, on two separate occasions; was the subject of a number of radio talk shows during the 1980s and early 90s; appeared in The Washington Times; and is found in "Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan" ___ a work documenting our Constitution's original tax plan which you would subvert with a tax plan that enslaves working people by taxing them on the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.

    How can you, Judy, condemn "income tax slavery" and support the "fairtax' slavery which imposes a tax on working people who sell the property each has in their own labor?

    JWK
    “…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address
    I've already explained why I prefer the FairTax over your plan. I realize you've worked hard and long on trying to take US backwards to the 1700's, but you have missed two important facts. First, a sales tax is NOT a direct tax, it is an indirect tax, like a tariff. It is not a tax on the "property of labor". Labor was a property in the 1700's, it was after all the day of slavery. Labor is not a property. Labor is not a store owner, not a babysitter, not a moonlighting plumber, not a self-employed lawn mower or leaf raker. Those are business people, working for themselves, same as a farmer, same as any self-employed person. Labor is when you work for someone else, not yourself. Second, the original tax plan was NOT to bill the states for anything, except in the event of shortfalls, emergencies, catastrophes. The original tax plan of the United States was based on tariffs, duties, imposts and excise taxes and ONLY IF for some reason there was a shortfall to pay the important bills of government such as funding armies or war or national disasters, ONLY THEN would the provision of assessing the states be used, no different than the way a Condominium collects Condominium Fees and only assess their members when for some reason something has gone wrong or something big and new wants to be done and the normal revenue is insufficient to cover it.

    Never, not once, in the history of the United States has that shortfall provision ever been used to fund one dime of the shortfalls of the US government, and there's a very good reason for that: it is unenforceable. But any time you're ready to pay up for your "fair share" of a $20 trillion national "shortfall", hey, feel free to send it in, but I'll never agree to a corrupt government using the force of itself or the states to take my house, my property, or anything else to pay for their idiocy. And no other American will either.

    There is only one solution to the income tax and that is replacing it with the FairTax. Based on many decades of studying this issue, of working both as an employee, as an independent contractor, as an investor, and as a business owner, I know for myself based on this broad experience, that the FairTax is the answer.

    Not everyone is going to see it, I realize that. Not everyone can get their head around it, I know that. All we need is a majority in Congress and some day very soon, the income tax swine will be outnumbered by real Americans, and Americans will prevail. I believe in my country, I believe in the people of the United States, and they are soon, very soon, on the verge of weaning themselves from the corrupt and evil menace known as the income tax, not just at the federal level, but all levels of government, and the deplorable menace of property taxes are next. And when all of that sickness is dispensed with, Americans will finally be truly free from the shackles of government tax tyranny.
    Last edited by Judy; 12-30-2017 at 03:34 PM.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    And a tax upon the sale of property, which every working person has in their own labor, is a direct tax upon property.

    Why do you want to enslave Mary and Joe Sixpack and make them slaves to our federal government? Why do you want to compel them to spend a portion of their lives each month filling out and filing fairtax returns and paying a tax on the sale of their property?

    JWK
    Giggles. Mary and Joe Sixpack are smarter than that, johnwk. When you are paid for doing something you choose to do, you are not a "slave". They know freedom when they see it, they are slaves now, to owners who rob their pockets every month, who steal their wages and earnings before they even see it or have it or touch it, that is slavery. Voluntarily choosing to be self-employed and charge your customers a federal sales tax that the customers pay, not Mary and Joe, and fill out the simple form each month for which they are paid to do, is not slavery, it's business. If you don't like the responsibilities of being a business owner, then stay a worker, if you want more money, work harder and ask for a raise, look for a new better paying job, look for a second job, ask for more hours, volunteer for over time, vote Republican, support the FairTax, stop breeding kids you can't support, spend less on Christmas, stop buying electronics you can't afford, stop wasting your money on state government lottery tickets, move to a cheaper home or apartment, do something besides whine about a decision you made to be a business owner and filing a report each month sending in the money you collected from your customers to support our government and are paid well for the collection service you provided and thank you lucky stars and the good people who pushed the FairTax through who set you free from the tyranny of the income tax so you could go home with ALL your wages and earnings free of federal taxation.

    STOP WHINING!!
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  9. #39
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    I've already explained why I prefer the FairTax over your plan. I realize you've worked hard and long on trying to take US backwards to the 1700's, but you have missed two important facts. First, a sales tax is NOT a direct tax, it is an indirect tax, like a tariff. It is not a tax on the "property of labor". .
    Backwards? Your innuendo is an indication of your inability to defend your position.

    Aside from that, we are talking about a specific tax, the “fairtax” which is asserted to be a sales tax. Regardless of what name you put on the tax in question, Judy, it does in fact tax a laboring person on the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.

    TAXABLE PROPERTY OR SERVICE-

    `(A) GENERAL RULE- The term `taxable property or service' means--
    `(i) any property (including leaseholds of any term or rents with respect to such property) but excluding--
    `(I) intangible property, and
    `(II) used property, and
    `(ii) any service (including any financial intermediation services as determined by section 801).


    `(d) Liability for Tax-

    `(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.


    `(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER-A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.

    `(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased

    `(a) In General- Any person liable to collect and remit taxes pursuant to section 103(a) who is engaged in a trade or business shall register as a seller with the sales tax administering authority administering the taxes imposed by this subtitle.

    ___________


    How can you, Judy, condemn "income tax slavery" and support the "fairtax' slavery which imposes a tax on working people who sell the property each has in their own labor?

    Is it not an inalienable right of mankind to sell the property each has in their own labor? Why do you support allowing our federal government to tax an inalienable right of mankind, Judy?


    Tell us, Judy, why do you want to enslave Mary and Joe Sixpack and make them slaves to our federal government by compelling them to spend a portion of their lives each month filling out and filing fairtax returns and paying a tax on the exercise of an inalienable right, which is the right to sell the property they have in their own labor?

    Why do you support such a slavish tax, Judy?

    Why do you want to tax the bread a working person has earned when selling their labor?


    JWK

    “…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

  10. #40
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post

    Never, not once, in the history of the United States has that shortfall provision ever been used to fund one dime of the shortfalls of the US government...
    The truth is, the direct tax upon the states was used a number of times:


    FROM THE SPRINGER CASE:

    The act of July 14, 1798, c. 75, 1 Stat. 53. This act imposed a tax upon real estate and a capitation tax upon slaves.

    The act of Aug. 2, 1813, c. 37, 3 id. 53. By this act the tax was imposed upon real estate and slaves, according to their respective values in money.

    The act of Jan. 19, 1815, c. 21, id. 164. This act imposed the tax upon the same descriptions of property, and in like manner as thepreceding act.

    The act of Feb. 27, 1815, c. 60, id. 216, applied to the District of Columbia the provisions of the act of Jan. 19, 1815. [102 U.S. 586,599] The act of March 5, 1816, c. 24,id. 255, repealed the two preceding acts, and re-enacted their provisions to enforce the collection of the smaller amount of tax thereby prescribed.

    The act of Aug. 5, 1861, c. 45, 12 id. 294, required the tax to be levied wholly on real estate.

    The act of June 7, 1862, c. 98, id. 422, and the act of Feb.6, 1863, c. 21, id. 640, both relate only to the collection, in insurrectionary districts, of the direct tax imposed by the act of Aug. 5, 1861, and need not,therefore, be more particularly noticed.

    __________


    Here is a link to the FIRST DIRECT TAX laid by Congress.

    It's not nice to make stuff up Judy.

    JWK
    Last edited by johnwk; 12-30-2017 at 04:42 PM.

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