Thread: Democrats to Ram healthcare down Americans throats !

Um, national defense is provided for Constitutionally. Although Congress is no longer doing it according to the regulations due to the fact that we've been living in a national state of emergency since 1933 when FDR declared the United States bankrupt, and took us off the gold standard, confiscated the peoples gold under penalty of admiralty law (military tribunal), for if it were tried in a civil court it would have been illegal as in under the color of law, and to top it off, Americans were forbidden to own gold after that, unless it was in the form of rare gold coin already owned. This also applied to the confiscation laws.

But it also is an enumerated power of Congress in Article I. So it is a legal isue, and that is why Congress is given the authority to collect tax for it. But it is also Congress authority to declare war. Not the President in response to a UN resolution circumventing Congress.

If you don't know the history of Detroit since the time of Mayor Cavanaugh, and his big government policies and buying into Johnsons Great Society, then I can only suggest a little more study.

I saw what No Child Left Behind did to my own kid's schools. Talking with their teachers, I found out that the kids are taught just to pass the tests administered. Outside of that there wasn't much substance, and they went to some of the better schools in Colorado. They also were taught under a policy of there is no such thing as "real" wrong answer. It has turned into a high speed dumbing down of the kids. The only reason my kids got a real good education, is I spent time on my own to teach them more than the standard curriculum the schools offerred. But that meant taking time out from starin' at the eyeball.

And trust me Betty, I have as much disdain for the Republicrats as I do the Demopublicans. They are nothing more than two sides of the same coin. If you don't mind this march to global socialism, that's fine. I do not buy into it.

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by Bettybb

I live in CA where Anthem Blue Cross is raising rates 33%. There is no effective regulation. In fact, it is thought that Anthem is playing fast and loose with its figures in order to come up with this increase. But no one knows for sure. Hence the rush to put regulations into place.

I have lived in Canada and in Belgium, both with a single payer system.

In both countries I could go to any doctor I wanted.
In both countires I never had to wait for an appointment. In fact, I have had to wait longer her in the US under my Blue Cross PPO coverage.
The care I received in both Canada and Belgium was equal to that I have received here.
My cost for my medical coverage in both countries was far, far less than what I am paying here.

Wake up people. The insurance industry has you bamboozled. They are making 30% profits off the fear they have instilled in you.

The result... America is way, way behind in the level of health care compared to other first world countries.

It is time Americans took control and reigned in the greedy insurance companies. Whether it is a public plan or through insurance offered nationally,

1. All Americans should be able to have top notch coverage at an affordable price.
2. preexisiting conditions should be covered.
3. there should be no discrimination against women.

NO MORE PRICE GOUGING!

Betty, over 63 million Americans under the age of 65 are already on MediCaid, HIPP and SCHIP. Another 49 million are on MediCare. That's 112 million or well over 1/3 of our population on these 4 programs. There are another 2.3 million in prison on state and federal health care. There are 9 million Americans insured by the Federal Government through their Federal Employee Retirement System. There are 2 million federal workers who aren't retired covered by government health care. Then there are another 15 million employed by Not-For-Profits most of whom are covered with insurance funded by taxpayer deductible contributions. There are 6.5 million teachers in the US with insurance funded by public dollars. Then add all state and local government employees and their insurance and this number I don't have but I would expect it to be 2 x the teachers so we'll call it 13 million. That's another 48 million. Now add their families x 2 = 96 million. Now add the 63 and that's over 161 million people, more than 53% of the US population that's already insured by with tax dollars or tax deductible dollars. Wait, I forgot to double the 14 million for the families of the not-for-profit people. Add another 15 million and that's 176 million out of 305 million population or 58% of the US population that is already insured by American Taxpayers. And I've probably left some group out ... oh yeah ... Congress and the Veterans. How many Veterans are taken care of by the Veterans' Administration? Lets say 5 million. I've no idea that's just a guess. Oh wait ... I forgot the US military and their families and the State National Guards. Add another 5 million. So we have 186 million Americans already covered with some type of government funded, subsidized health insurance program which is 61% of the US population.

We have 40 million uninsured. That accounts for 236 million out of 304 million which is 77%. Okay that leaves 23% of the US population that is privately insured paid for by either themselves or their employer.

20 million of the 40 million are illegal aliens. That leaves 20 million people to worry about, probably 10 million citizens.

Just add them to MediCaid if and when they get sick until they get a job. Tell the illegal aliens to get out of the country and if the immigrants can't afford insurance, then they need to go back home too.

Adding 10 million US citizens to MediCaid would be a 20% increase to a $408 billion budget which is another $82 billion a year. The stimulus package alone would have funded their health care for 10 full years.

So you want 23% of the population to fund 40 million more un-insureds?

Oh wait ... I forgot the federal contractors. That's another 10 million. So we're already funding 196 million. Oh geez, that's actually 20 million if we double it for their families. Holy Moly ... that's 206 million Americans who already have government funded tax payer subsidized health insurance. That would make the private sector insured only 19% of the US population.

No wonder private insurance companies are raising their rates on private health insurance plans. There aren't enough Americans left off the public dole to sign up for them to fund their reserve mandates.

I have an idea. Why don't the 196 million pass the hat and raise some money for a fund to take care of the 10 million or so uninsureds who are actually US citizens, send the 20 million illegal aliens and the 5 million immigrants who can't afford health insurance back to their homelands of citizenship and let their governments take care of them.

Anyone with better data than what I have here, please post it. I think it's critical that we determine how many Americans are insured with public monies either as a direct employee of the government, a contractor, a prisoner or a not-for-profit.

Thanks. Can that number be right?! it can't be can it? If it is, no wonder our government is $14 trillion in debt and almost 40 states are on the verge bankruptcy.

............................
I entirely agree it makes sense to add the uninsured onto Medicare, with a couple off conditions. No illegal aliens, and those who are under 65 pay a premium that is based on income and means. Frankly, there should be a means test for those above 65 too. Medicare is on the brink of bankruptcy because we are not demanding people pay as they go.

But that does not solve the problem the employers have of huge hikes in insurance coverage for their employees. Like we are seeing with Anthem. If the insurance companies win the pr battle and fight back health care reform, watch the rates soar for all private insurance. They have almost monopolistic status in the states.

It just adding the uninsured Americans to Medicare does not solve the problem of creating real competition for private insurance plans.

Nor does it solve the abuses that private insurance plans are engaged in... like cancelling coverage when people get sick, or refusing to pay for treatment orderd by the doctor.

As you pointed out, a larger percentage of Americans are already on government run plans.

Why not open Medicare to everyone? Give people options.

Let people decide at work which plan or even plans to purchase.

We could choose to opt into the Medicare system and pay the premimums, or if our employer gives it as a benefit, the employer pays the premium.

Or if people prefer, let them opt into private plans, paid for by themselves or themselves and their employer if the employer provides that benefit.

If we want both Medicare coverage and some additional private insurance we could also buy a private plan.

Other countries do things like this. Hey it is not rocket sciened. ... so you are enrolled in the government plan, paid for either through your taxes or employer deductions and contributions etc, but if you want extras, like a private hospital room if you get sick, then you can buy private coverage for that stuff.

So instead of having multiple government bureacracies as we do now, you streamline it with one government option, Medicare. You give private insurance real competition. It obviously works as other countries have just as good health care (and it is universal) at much less cost.

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Um, national defense is provided for Constitutionally. Although Congress is no longer doing it according to the regulations due to the fact that we've been living in a national state of emergency since 1933 when FDR declared the United States bankrupt, and took us off the gold standard, confiscated the peoples gold under penalty of admiralty law (military tribunal), for if it were tried in a civil court it would have been illegal as in under the color of law, and to top it off, Americans were forbidden to own gold after that, unless it was in the form of rare gold coin already owned. This also applied to the confiscation laws.

But it also is an enumerated power of Congress in Article I. So it is a legal isue, and that is why Congress is given the authority to collect tax for it. But it is also Congress authority to declare war. Not the President in response to a UN resolution circumventing Congress.

If you don't know the history of Detroit since the time of Mayor Cavanaugh, and his big government policies and buying into Johnsons Great Society, then I can only suggest a little more study.

I saw what No Child Left Behind did to my own kid's schools. Talking with their teachers, I found out that the kids are taught just to pass the tests administered. Outside of that there wasn't much substance, and they went to some of the better schools in Colorado. They also were taught under a policy of there is no such thing as "real" wrong answer. It has turned into a high speed dumbing down of the kids. The only reason my kids got a real good education, is I spent time on my own to teach them more than the standard curriculum the schools offerred. But that meant taking time out from starin' at the eyeball.

And trust me Betty, I have as much disdain for the Republicrats as I do the Demopublicans. They are nothing more than two sides of the same coin. If you don't mind this march to global socialism, that's fine. I do not buy into it.

......

Well, our Constitution does have a national defense clause, but it does not say it has to be in a socialist manner. We could pay taxes for it but have it run completely by private enterprise.

I do not know the history of Detroit and what local politics did to the city. But I am familiar with the auto industry which was the financal backbone of the city, and when the auto industry went south, so did the good paying jobs, and the city deteroriated very fast. So you may want to check this out before reaching any conclusions about Detroit.

No question that public education, in general, needs major reform. But what I call ""Education, Inc", ie the teachers' union, the administrators union and the education civil service, won't tolerate it. That is why I am pleased that Obama is trying to shake things up with his race for the top. Those states who get Education, Inc to reform are going to get money. Those states who allow competition from charter schools will get money. Those that pander to the special interest won't. Someone has to break Education, Inc's stranglehold on our kids education.

One of my kids when to private school all the way through. The other went to private through Middle School, then one year of high school abroad, and the last three at a public school here.

The pubilc school had the international baccalaureate program and he got a high school education that is ranked as world class. It is an absolutely astounding program. My brother in law paid over $25,000 a year for the same program for each of his kids in a private school. Yes, we could put first class educational programs into our public schools. It just take parent power and getting around the vested interests. My son's school got the program because the district was judged to be segregated, so the court ordered change. They opted to integrate by offering the best programs at magnet schools. It sure worked to my son's advantage.

Socialism has it place, it properly utilized. Like we mostly do here in America. We pool our resources for certain things, like the military, and police, and social security and the infastructure, and have it government run as that is actually the most cost effective way to do it.

But I agree that we have to be careful. Big government can be very dangerous and take on a life of its own.

In terms of globalization, I think that is much too complex a concept, and the situations too varied, to be judged on an up or down vote.

My real concern is the take over of America, and in fact, the global economy by an elite few, aided and abetted by our Dem and Repub politicians.

^5 on your distain for our political elite. I too have had it with those jokers, of both parties.

Bettybb, you're overlooking something very important about the socialistic programs that for the most part we have all supported if not in detail at least in concept. They aren't working. Our federal government is $14 trillion in debt, we have 18% broad-based unemployment, and Globalists control our government.

The reasons people don't have health insurance are either a) they don't want it or b) they can't afford it. I'm not going to force a government mandated insurance program on people who don't want it. I'm also not going to force them to pay for something they don't want. I'm also not willing to ask other people who can barely buy their own if they can even do that to buy it for someone else.

501 C 3 Not-for-profit "charities" collect $1.3 Trillion a year in tax-exempt income, they own $2 Trillion worth of tax-exempt assets and employ 15 million people. This is the money that was supposed to take care of the hungry, the poor and the sick. Instead this money has been siphoned out of our economy, the profits sheltered from tax, and the hungry are still hungery, the poor are still poor and the sick are still sick, while the 15 million people who work for these frauds live the Life of Riley, in the suburbs, in 3,500 square foot homes, with $1 million 401k's with 2 Mercedes in the driveway.

Pass the FairTax. Shut these frauds down. Redirect the money and assets back into the economy and only let the portion that is spent solely on the hungry, the poor and sick as charity, which means gifts only, sit in 501 C 3 bank accounts so that money is actually used to do what it was intended to do. Then people during hard times will have access to charity when they need it without robbing someone else or bankrupting our governments.

Judy, somethings I agree with you whole heartedly.

The corporate charity scam is despictable. Unfortunately, the solution to make charities actually be charities is more governement regulation.

I do think a moneyed free trade elite is running this country, using Repubs and Dems as their puppets.

I disagree that our huge debt is because of our collective (socialist) programs. It is because our politicans have been catering to the moneyed elite, and transferring the wealth of the middle class to them. Any time the people try to retake control, big corporate America yells "socialism" and cons people into letting the rip off continue.

I would think that the reason most people don't have health insurance is because they cannot afford it. The result is that they go to the public hospitals and get taxpayer subsidized care. So the taxpayer is paying for it anyway.. and through the nose thru ER care. It would be great if charity could take care the the problem. But it cannot. And doctors will never going to refuse to treat people. So we get stuck with the bill.

I must say the Fair Tax idea is interesting. But it is my opinion the really sane idea is a national health care system, like Medicare for everyone, with everyone paying at least something into the system.

My opinion does not matter here but both the arguments have the merits, and will never be settled here. Socialized medicine should be a heading of its own, compartmentalized.

Originally Posted by Bettybb

Judy, somethings I agree with you whole heartedly.

The corporate charity scam is despictable. Unfortunately, the solution to make charities actually be charities is more governement regulation.

I do think a moneyed free trade elite is running this country, using Repubs and Dems as their puppets.

I disagree that our huge debt is because of our collective (socialist) programs. It is because our politicans have been catering to the moneyed elite, and transferring the wealth of the middle class to them. Any time the people try to retake control, big corporate America yells "socialism" and cons people into letting the rip off continue.

I would think that the reason most people don't have health insurance is because they cannot afford it. The result is that they go to the public hospitals and get taxpayer subsidized care. So the taxpayer is paying for it anyway.. and through the nose thru ER care. It would be great if charity could take care the the problem. But it cannot. And doctors will never going to refuse to treat people. So we get stuck with the bill.

I must say the Fair Tax idea is interesting. But it is my opinion the really sane idea is a national health care system, like Medicare for everyone, with everyone paying at least something into the system.

Bettybb ... I have some good news ... there is actually a way to stop the charity theft .. and that's the FairTax. See, the FairTax eliminates the income tax, which eliminates the siphon mechanism. Corporations and wealthy people can no longer dump money into these fraudulent hobbies and agenda makers instead of the charity the tax exemption was intended to induce, tax free. They no longer get a tax deduction for the money they put in them because there is no longer anything to deduct it from. Whatever service or product they sell is subject to the FairTax like every other for-profit business. The ONLY service or product that isn't subject to the FairTax is what they actually give away. So they no longer receive tax exempt contributions because there's nothing to deduct it from. Furthermore, they can no longer create these not-for-profit businesses because we don't care about their "profit" any more, because profit is no longer taxes. It's of no consequence whether they make a lot of profit or a little profit or no profit. That's up to them and the market. We only care about their sales and when they sell any new product or service, they have to collect and hand over the FairTax.

You have to study the FairTax to understand it fully, but the FairTax shuts all these phony money-making fraudulent charities down, leaving only the true charities who are giving money, products and services away for free to help people who need it to pay their bills, to buy food, or get medical help.

Bettybb, on health insurance, I don't have health insurance right now. I had it for 30 years, never used a dime of it, and then things happened with this economy a few years ago and we simply couldn't afford it. We aren't poor, we have assets but we have no money for health insurance.

And the last thing we want and trust me emphatically when I tell you this, is some Obama Care forced on us. I don't want to even discuss my health with the US government. I don't want them to have my medical records, I don't want them to annoy me telling me I need this exam or that test or this pill or anything else. I don't want to listen to them yammering at me about smoking. I want them to stay away from me, my family and my life. I want them out of my life not in it. Do you understand that? Do you understand that Americans DO NOT WANT the US government involved in their personal lives, choices, lifestyles, homes, papers, body or anything else that comprises our 4th Amendment civil right under the US Constitution:

"Amendment IV - US Constitution

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Not having health insurance today is not a crime. Please don't try and make it one.

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by Bettybb

Judy, somethings I agree with you whole heartedly.

The corporate charity scam is despictable. Unfortunately, the solution to make charities actually be charities is more governement regulation.

I do think a moneyed free trade elite is running this country, using Repubs and Dems as their puppets.

I disagree that our huge debt is because of our collective (socialist) programs. It is because our politicans have been catering to the moneyed elite, and transferring the wealth of the middle class to them. Any time the people try to retake control, big corporate America yells "socialism" and cons people into letting the rip off continue.

I would think that the reason most people don't have health insurance is because they cannot afford it. The result is that they go to the public hospitals and get taxpayer subsidized care. So the taxpayer is paying for it anyway.. and through the nose thru ER care. It would be great if charity could take care the the problem. But it cannot. And doctors will never going to refuse to treat people. So we get stuck with the bill.

I must say the Fair Tax idea is interesting. But it is my opinion the really sane idea is a national health care system, like Medicare for everyone, with everyone paying at least something into the system.

Bettybb ... I have some good news ... there is actually a way to stop the charity theft .. and that's the FairTax. See, the FairTax eliminates the income tax, which eliminates the siphon mechanism. Corporations and wealthy people can no longer dump money into these fraudulent hobbies and agenda makers instead of the charity the tax exemption was intended to induce, tax free. They no longer get a tax deduction for the money they put in them because there is no longer anything to deduct it from. Whatever service or product they sell is subject to the FairTax like every other for-profit business. The ONLY service or product that isn't subject to the FairTax is what they actually give away. So they no longer receive tax exempt contributions because there's nothing to deduct it from. Furthermore, they can no longer create these not-for-profit businesses because we don't care about their "profit" any more, because profit is no longer taxes. It's of no consequence whether they make a lot of profit or a little profit or no profit. That's up to them and the market. We only care about their sales and when they sell any new product or service, they have to collect and hand over the FairTax.

You have to study the FairTax to understand it fully, but the FairTax shuts all these phony money-making fraudulent charities down, leaving only the true charities who are giving money, products and services away for free to help people who need it to pay their bills, to buy food, or get medical help.

Bettybb, on health insurance, I don't have health insurance right now. I had it for 30 years, never used a dime of it, and then things happened with this economy a few years ago and we simply couldn't afford it. We aren't poor, we have assets but we have no money for health insurance.

And the last thing we want and trust me emphatically when I tell you this, is some Obama Care forced on us. I don't want to even discuss my health with the US government. I don't want them to have my medical records, I don't want them to annoy me telling me I need this exam or that test or this pill or anything else. I don't want to listen to them yammering at me about smoking. I want them to stay away from me, my family and my life. I want them out of my life not in it. Do you understand that? Do you understand that Americans DO NOT WANT the US government involved in their personal lives, choices, lifestyles, homes, papers, body or anything else that comprises our 4th Amendment civil right under the US Constitution:

"Amendment IV - US Constitution

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Not having health insurance today is not a crime. Please don't try and make it one.

..........

Each time I read one of your posts, Judy, about the Fair Tax it becomes more interesting. You are right, it would shut down the scam charities.

On the health care front, Obama's plan has no public option. All he has is insurance exchanges where you buy from private companies. So your concern about privacy is misplaced.

Also, the Obama plan does not make not having insurance a crime. What is proposed is a $95 fine.

I would be okay with everyone doing their own thing, choosing whether to have health insurance or not, if it was not for the fact that if they get sick, they will of course be given medical treatment, but the taxpayer picks up the tab.

My preferred option would be a public government option. Just expand Medicare would do it. I presume you would also object to Medicare, again for privacy concerns. I also presume you were up in arms about the Bush warrantless wiretapping of law abiding Americans.

I understand your not wanting government intrusion into your life. I agree our privacy should be guarded as much as possible from the government. But the reality is, if you want to live in our advanced society, there is going to be some intrusion. The vast majority of Americans are willing to make that compromise. If not, you would see people refusing Medicare at 65. That is not happening.

As I see it, our health care system is heading for an implosiong. It cannot be sustained at this rate of cost increase. Something needs to be done.

It will be interesting to see what the Repubs come up with.

But it seems you and I will have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Bettybb

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by Bettybb

Judy, somethings I agree with you whole heartedly.

The corporate charity scam is despictable. Unfortunately, the solution to make charities actually be charities is more governement regulation.

I do think a moneyed free trade elite is running this country, using Repubs and Dems as their puppets.

I disagree that our huge debt is because of our collective (socialist) programs. It is because our politicans have been catering to the moneyed elite, and transferring the wealth of the middle class to them. Any time the people try to retake control, big corporate America yells "socialism" and cons people into letting the rip off continue.

I would think that the reason most people don't have health insurance is because they cannot afford it. The result is that they go to the public hospitals and get taxpayer subsidized care. So the taxpayer is paying for it anyway.. and through the nose thru ER care. It would be great if charity could take care the the problem. But it cannot. And doctors will never going to refuse to treat people. So we get stuck with the bill.

I must say the Fair Tax idea is interesting. But it is my opinion the really sane idea is a national health care system, like Medicare for everyone, with everyone paying at least something into the system.

Bettybb ... I have some good news ... there is actually a way to stop the charity theft .. and that's the FairTax. See, the FairTax eliminates the income tax, which eliminates the siphon mechanism. Corporations and wealthy people can no longer dump money into these fraudulent hobbies and agenda makers instead of the charity the tax exemption was intended to induce, tax free. They no longer get a tax deduction for the money they put in them because there is no longer anything to deduct it from. Whatever service or product they sell is subject to the FairTax like every other for-profit business. The ONLY service or product that isn't subject to the FairTax is what they actually give away. So they no longer receive tax exempt contributions because there's nothing to deduct it from. Furthermore, they can no longer create these not-for-profit businesses because we don't care about their "profit" any more, because profit is no longer taxes. It's of no consequence whether they make a lot of profit or a little profit or no profit. That's up to them and the market. We only care about their sales and when they sell any new product or service, they have to collect and hand over the FairTax.

You have to study the FairTax to understand it fully, but the FairTax shuts all these phony money-making fraudulent charities down, leaving only the true charities who are giving money, products and services away for free to help people who need it to pay their bills, to buy food, or get medical help.

Bettybb, on health insurance, I don't have health insurance right now. I had it for 30 years, never used a dime of it, and then things happened with this economy a few years ago and we simply couldn't afford it. We aren't poor, we have assets but we have no money for health insurance.

And the last thing we want and trust me emphatically when I tell you this, is some Obama Care forced on us. I don't want to even discuss my health with the US government. I don't want them to have my medical records, I don't want them to annoy me telling me I need this exam or that test or this pill or anything else. I don't want to listen to them yammering at me about smoking. I want them to stay away from me, my family and my life. I want them out of my life not in it. Do you understand that? Do you understand that Americans DO NOT WANT the US government involved in their personal lives, choices, lifestyles, homes, papers, body or anything else that comprises our 4th Amendment civil right under the US Constitution:

"Amendment IV - US Constitution

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Not having health insurance today is not a crime. Please don't try and make it one.

..........

Each time I read one of your posts, Judy, about the Fair Tax it becomes more interesting. You are right, it would shut down the scam charities.

On the health care front, Obama's plan has no public option. All he has is insurance exchanges where you buy from private companies. So your concern about privacy is misplaced.

Also, the Obama plan does not make not having insurance a crime. What is proposed is a $95 fine.

I would be okay with everyone doing their own thing, choosing whether to have health insurance or not, if it was not for the fact that if they get sick, they will of course be given medical treatment, but the taxpayer picks up the tab.

My preferred option would be a public government option. Just expand Medicare would do it. I presume you would also object to Medicare, again for privacy concerns. I also presume you were up in arms about the Bush warrantless wiretapping of law abiding Americans.

I understand your not wanting government intrusion into your life. I agree our privacy should be guarded as much as possible from the government. But the reality is, if you want to live in our advanced society, there is going to be some intrusion. The vast majority of Americans are willing to make that compromise. If not, you would see people refusing Medicare at 65. That is not happening.

As I see it, our health care system is heading for an implosiong. It cannot be sustained at this rate of cost increase. Something needs to be done.

It will be interesting to see what the Repubs come up with.

But it seems you and I will have to agree to disagree.

Thank you Bettybb. I'm so glad you're thinking about the FairTax and see how it shuts down the scam charities.

But on health care, oh yes, Obama Care definitely invades your medical and personal privacy and here's how:

1. Under the Exchange, everyone who buys is eligible by law for a "subsidy", which requires the insurance company and the government to force intrusion into your personal life, medical records, financial affairs, authorizes the IRS to give DHHS all your tax returns, and forces the banks to give DHHS access to your bank accounts under the guise of "how much subsidy" you're eligible for. It is the most intrusive invasive authoritarian act of the federal government against the privacy and freedom of our US citizens in our American History.

2. No, advanced societies protect liberty and privacy, they don't hand it over to a corrupt authoritarian government, make people who resist into criminals and send them to jail, which is what Obama Care will do. It uses the tax code and the fines to create a crime subject to imprisonment under the Internal Revenue Code for not buying health insurance and then refusing to pay the fines.

3. Under Obama Care, households who earn up to $96,000 a year, 4 x the poverty rate, are eligible for "subsidy". Give me a friggin' break. What a bunch of whiny losers. Then you tax the families who make $50,000 a year, the average household income in the US, to pay for it.

4. Bettybb, you are reasonable person. Unless you've read HB 3200, which is the Senate version less the public option, you can't grasp how wrong this "reform" is or understand the devastating impact it will have on Americans, personally, financially and politically. We are not Europe, and we don't want to be. It's why we declared our independence from that part of the world in 1776. We don't want Masters, we don't want Rulers, we just want to be free, it's why we're here. My great-great-great grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War, my great-grandfather fought for the Union in the Civil War as an 18 year old Volunteer to free the slaves ... and a government controlling our health, invading our persons, our papers, our homes, our possessions, our medical records, our bank accounts and sending us to jail for refusing to buy health insurance or refusing to pay a fine for not doing so ... is NOT what they fought for. That is NOT the American Dream of the United States.

So, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Judy,