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  1. #21

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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Is it because of security?
    Security can mean a whole bunch of different things. I choose a broader definition.

    First when you have thousands illegally crossing the border daily, how can you tell who is a threat and who is not? As long as the border is unsecure, we are vulnerable to a terrorist attack.

    Then there is the criminal threat. When violent criminals can cross back and forth at will, we are faced with cases like the Denver cop killed by an illegal who simply went back to Mexico to get away with murder.

    Then there is the biological threat. There are a number of deseases we had eliminated from our population. Legal immigrants have to pass a medical screening to gain entry. Illegals don't. Illegals bring into the U.S. a number of virulent illnesses like leprosy, Chagas Desease, Drug resistant TB, MRSA, and other nasty stuff. We end up treating them here and then we get stuck with the bill . . .

  2. #22

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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Is it because of jobs?
    Jobs. The number of illegals in the US is somewhere between 20 million and 50 million. IOW, between 8% and 17% of the total population is illegal. With unemployment at 9% or less, if you eliminated the illegals, unemployment would disappear.

  3. #23

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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto

    Why do you feel so strongly about the illegal immigration issues in The US?
    Is it because of security?
    Is it because of jobs?
    Or is it something else?
    All of the above. Foremost, for security reasons. As a nation, preventing the entry of a terrorist or criminal intent to do harm to US citizen's is a good start. Knowing who is coming in has to start at the border.

    As far as jobs are concerned, I, personally, am 100% positive that I am a good enough worker at what I do. I am not at all concerned about losing my job to an immigrant or a non-immigrant. Why should we fear that? If you know that you are the best at what you do, you should not worry.
    This is fine, when you are competing only against a market of individuals who have a right to be in competition with you. Unfortunately, I am not a Astrophysic's PhD holder, so whether I like it or not, there is somone like you, Roberto, who can probably do my job better than me. I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with this job being taken from me because I won't work for $6.00 less an hour, without benefits, and no protection from the law. An illegal alien may very well be willing to work with those conditions.
    That's wrong at both ends, the laborer for being there, and the employer willing to hire them.


    Here is a scenario:

    You were born in the USA.
    Jose was born in Peru.

    Does that make you a better person than Jose?
    No. It does not.

    Jose has lived the same GOOD life that you have. He went to school. He works hard. He is married and has children. Jose's daughter ends up here in the USA (LEGALLY) She is now a US resident. She is going to get married here in the US. Jose attempts to LEGALLY come to the US to attend his daughters wedding. He gets denied by the Embassy. (Sorry Jose, Try again in 6 months.. Denied again.)
    Jose can come into the country on a visitor visa, and only very rarely are those denied. Jose is not yet an illegal immigrant...he is not an immigrant at all. He is just visiting. No one on this board would say Jose shouldn't be allowed into the country under these conditions.

    That scenario doesn't have to be a wedding. It could be that Jose's daughter is gravely ill in a hospital in the US and he is only trying to visit his daughter. But he is denied. I'm sure any father could sympathize with that. It is only human that a father would want to attend his daughters wedding or visit his sick family member in the hospital. But he can't. Why? Because he is a bad person? No. Because of where he is born. That is just not right.
    See above. Again, Jose isn't immigrating, he is visiting. If he chooses to stay, now he has changed his status, but since he is the family member of an America citizen, he won't be unless there is some specific reason to deny him (think criminal record).

    Also... How many people want to come here from other countries because there are no jobs in their country? All they want is an opportunity to make an honest living for themselves and their families. (Just as my grandparents did. And probably most of your ancestors as well.) And they are denied that. Is that right? Is that fair? I don't think so. Denying HONEST, GOOD people entrance here. You wouldn't like it if it was your family member. Is it ok to start turning the good people away now... Is it ok now because you and your relatives are already here? Is that why?
    Now we're getting into the dicey areas... My great-grandparents came here legally just before WWI. From the information we have, they went through about a 5 or 6 year process to get their visa's and then came through Ellis island like millions of other immigrants. The key point here is they went through the process, and their arrival was documented. The US allowed them to enter. What happens at our Southern border doesn't fit that same bill... The US is not allowing entrants across, they are simply taking advantage of the absence of someone there to deter them or direct them to the LEGAL port of entrance.

    Most US Citizens can get up in the morning and go where ever they want to in the world without having to wait on a 6 month long waiting list and to go to an interview only to get denied. We can go where we want, when we want.
    Not quite true. Even us uppity Americans need passports and visa's to enter the country(ies) we intend to visit. If we want to work in one of those other countries, even more thorough checks are done to determine if they want us there. It isn't like an American has a free ride to fly to France and get hired as an Astrophysicist.

    "Ok.. I can go to Mexico whenever I want! And they better treat me like a king!" but " God forbid they come here and take OUR jobs away!" Sounds pretty elitist to me.
    Mexican's can come across the border to visit, and thousands of them do every day, returning later in the day. The same works in reverse, US citizens visit Mexico. The attitude you've shown here though, is that it isn't about visiting any more. It's about staying and setting up a household. A much, much different thing.

    Americans for DENYING the good people of the world LEGAL Immigration?
    I'm disappointed, Roberto. I know for a fact that most of us don't object to LEGAL immigrants at all. That's a falsehood. Sure, there are few who want a complete moritorium on immigration, but even they will not say they are against immigrants who are here LEGALLY, having gone through the processes our government requires. If there are few or those, rest assured, until the laws are changed, LEGAL immigrants are welcome.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

  4. #24

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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Or is it something else?
    The something else is the social cost. The amount of money hospitals lose every year from treating illegals is staggering. However, that cost is just a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to the social services intended for citizens. Public Aid, Medicaid, Aid to Children and Dependant family, Welfare, Food Stamps, Public Schools (Bi-lingual), . . .

  5. #25
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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    I understand what you are saying. And I agree with you. My point is that there is a bigger picture to this. It goes much higher than just the people who are entering the country illegally. I am not sure what nationality you are, but as I mentioned earlier, all of my grandparents were immigrants. They did not have to enter illegally. I am not saying it is right for someone to enter illegally either. All I am saying is that mostly all of us are descendants of immigrants. They all were accepted here at that time. ( I am assuming this - I know its bad.. ) At some point and time those doors have been closed, well at least made much harder for most... (to enter legally) Basically, my point is this.. Who am I to judge someone else..
    Americans probably make up the biggest group of tourists out of any other country in the world. We are quick to jump on a plane and go to another country, but it's another story when it comes to letting them visit here.

    To me, that is like saying " Treat me good when I'm in your home, but don't expect the same from me. "

    Also,

    You are absolutely correct... Illegal Immigration IS just that.. ILLEGAL!!
    but there are many, many illegal crimes committed every day in the US. Many of them much worse than illegal immigration. Are you going after those people as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Magoo
    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Why do you feel so strongly about the illegal immigration issues in The US?
    Simple, it is that pesky word Illegal. This Country is based on the Rule of Law. Here you have a class of people that number in the millions that break the law with impunity. And it does not stop with Immigration Law*Ding! a Law broken*. In order to work *Ding! another Law broken*, they need fake ID's *Ding! another Law broken*. Fake ID's most likely are founded on a stolen ID *Ding! another Law broken*. Also need a fake (read stolen) SS Number, *Ding! another Law broken*. If they drive, fraudulent Liscense *Ding! another Law broken*. No Insurance *Ding! another Law broken*.

    Then they get politically active and vote. Because voting is only for legal citizens, *Ding! another Law broken*. Their PACs (La Raza, MeCHa, El Pueblo, etc) are registered as tax exempt groups, and as such are not allowed to lobby, but they do lobby *Ding! another Law broken*.

    I am not even going to address violent crime. The evidence is overwhelming that with a track record of breaking laws, there is a natural progression to other forms of crime. Kinda like Pot being a gateway drug leading to harder stuff. *Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding! another Law broken*.

    Tell me Roberto, what laws are ok for me to break with impunity? I really want to know, because after 49 years of being a law abiding American Citizen, I got a lotta catchin' up to do!!

  6. #26
    roberto's Avatar
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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    Personally, I believe that unemployment will still exist. Some people just don't want to work. Especailly when they can get a free paycheck. But that's another subject

    The government will find something else to tax us on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Magoo
    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Is it because of jobs?
    Jobs. The number of illegals in the US is somewhere between 20 million and 50 million. IOW, between 8% and 17% of the total population is illegal. With unemployment at 9% or less, if you eliminated the illegals, unemployment would disappear.

  7. #27
    roberto's Avatar
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    Rarius,

    As I mentioned in one of my posts.. I know people personally under those circumstances who have been denied Visas for reasons such as I mentioned. And, It happens a lot more than you realize. That does bother be. - Also, as I mentioned. I do believe in control. But, situations like this need to be addressed as well.





    Jose can come into the country on a visitor visa, and only very rarely are those denied. Jose is not yet an illegal immigrant...he is not an immigrant at all. He is just visiting. No one on this board would say Jose shouldn't be allowed into the country under these conditions.

  8. #28
    roberto's Avatar
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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    First.. Again.. I DO NOT condone Illegal Immigrants...
    but
    Most illegal immigrants are also contributing to the social costs. Remember, if they are illegal, most illegals have fake social security numbers. Which means that they are paying into the same things that we are.. And being that it is fake, they arent going to get any of it back. ever.. So, actually, that would benifit us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Magoo
    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Or is it something else?
    The something else is the social cost. The amount of money hospitals lose every year from treating illegals is staggering. However, that cost is just a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to the social services intended for citizens. Public Aid, Medicaid, Aid to Children and Dependant family, Welfare, Food Stamps, Public Schools (Bi-lingual), . . .

  9. #29

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    413

    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    I understand what you are saying. And I agree with you. My point is that there is a bigger picture to this. It goes much higher than just the people who are entering the country illegally. I am not sure what nationality you are, but as I mentioned earlier, all of my grandparents were immigrants. They did not have to enter illegally. I am not saying it is right for someone to enter illegally either. All I am saying is that mostly all of us are descendants of immigrants. They all were accepted here at that time. ( I am assuming this - I know its bad.. ) At some point and time those doors have been closed, well at least made much harder for most... (to enter legally) Basically, my point is this.. Who am I to judge someone else..
    Americans probably make up the biggest group of tourists out of any other country in the world. We are quick to jump on a plane and go to another country, but it's another story when it comes to letting them visit here.

    To me, that is like saying " Treat me good when I'm in your home, but don't expect the same from me. "

    Also,

    You are absolutely correct... Illegal Immigration IS just that.. ILLEGAL!!
    but there are many, many illegal crimes committed every day in the US. Many of them much worse than illegal immigration. Are you going after those people as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Magoo
    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Why do you feel so strongly about the illegal immigration issues in The US?
    Simple, it is that pesky word Illegal. This Country is based on the Rule of Law. Here you have a class of people that number in the millions that break the law with impunity. And it does not stop with Immigration Law*Ding! a Law broken*. In order to work *Ding! another Law broken*, they need fake ID's *Ding! another Law broken*. Fake ID's most likely are founded on a stolen ID *Ding! another Law broken*. Also need a fake (read stolen) SS Number, *Ding! another Law broken*. If they drive, fraudulent Liscense *Ding! another Law broken*. No Insurance *Ding! another Law broken*.

    Then they get politically active and vote. Because voting is only for legal citizens, *Ding! another Law broken*. Their PACs (La Raza, MeCHa, El Pueblo, etc) are registered as tax exempt groups, and as such are not allowed to lobby, but they do lobby *Ding! another Law broken*.

    I am not even going to address violent crime. The evidence is overwhelming that with a track record of breaking laws, there is a natural progression to other forms of crime. Kinda like Pot being a gateway drug leading to harder stuff. *Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding! another Law broken*.

    Tell me Roberto, what laws are ok for me to break with impunity? I really want to know, because after 49 years of being a law abiding American Citizen, I got a lotta catchin' up to do!!
    First, on one side of the family my Grandparents immigrated LEGALLY as children. They met and married here. On the other side they immigrated LEGALLY in 1805. They did it the right way, and it took time and money to do it by the book.

    Immigration and Visa issues are 2 different things. Yes, Americans get Visas and travel. The do it LEGALLY. They apply for a Visa, and wait, and jump through all the hoops, and then travel. And then they return HOME!

    As a Nation, we also issue Visas to all who apply and pass the restrictions. A background search shows they are not criminals, a medical screen shows they will not contaminate our public at large, etc.

    More needs to be done to insure that at the end of a Visa stay, they go home.

  10. #30

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    Re: A few questions to all of the members here from an obser

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    First.. Again.. I DO NOT condone Illegal Immigrants...
    but
    Most illegal immigrants are also contributing to the social costs. Remember, if they are illegal, most illegals have fake social security numbers. Which means that they are paying into the same things that we are.. And being that it is fake, they arent going to get any of it back. ever.. So, actually, that would benifit us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Magoo
    You bring up so many divergent issues, I will address a few of them, in seperate posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto
    Or is it something else?
    The something else is the social cost. The amount of money hospitals lose every year from treating illegals is staggering. However, that cost is just a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to the social services intended for citizens. Public Aid, Medicaid, Aid to Children and Dependant family, Welfare, Food Stamps, Public Schools (Bi-lingual), . . .
    Correction: MOST illegals are paid under the table. There are no taxes deducted from wages.

    Also keep in mind the $20 Billion sent back to MX each year is $20 Billion lost to our economy.

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